Why don't Jews accept Jesus as the Messiah?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by The Gatherer, Jul 26, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. WormieSaber Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2000
    star 5
    Plus I would say that the fact that Christianity sprang up in Rome in the second century rather than Jerusalem at the turn of the millennium is the main reason it didn't appeal to Jews. The Jews had never heard of him. They didn't know he existed.

    I believe the Jews were kicked out of Isreal entirely around 70 A.D.-80 A.D., if I'm correct. Also, around that time, the holy temple was destroyed. Interesting, Jesus himself predicted that the jews would reject him, and that the temple would be destroyed. It's fair to say that with such social upheavel a rise in Christendom in that area would of been unlikely.

    The prophecies can be argued against (for the sake of argument alone) but I always felt that Isaiah 53 was more or less irrefutable, even for a Jew who follows Judiasm and believes the book of Isaiah is inspired by God. Even ancient Rabbis before Christ's birth wrote interpretations of a future Messiah who would have to be "cut off".

    Perhaps Jews today, if not most, are simply not looking for a Messiah.
  2. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Perhaps you misunderstood me when I said "die for things they made up". Did the 9/11 pilots invent Islam (or the interpretation taught to them for that matter)? No. They believed it to be true with all their hearts, and that gave them reason to die. Would they have gone to such lengths had the concocted the religion themselves? Doubtful.

    Well, how do we know that they really died for it? On whose word do we trust that Peter and Paul and the others existed and died for their beliefs?


    As to the "evidence" of two comings, couldn't that, I don't know, mean two phases of his life? Maybe entering Jerusalem on a donkey, then coming back with the power of God after the resurrection?




    SCREW CHIVALRY!
  3. Jedi_Rhysode Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 15, 2004
    star 2
    Maybe entering Jerusalem on a donkey, then coming back with the power of God after the resurrection?


    But, do you see that you are just restateing what we have said? We only add a gap of a few millenia in between, but what is time for an Eternal God?
  4. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    And you wonder why the Jews maybe have a problem accepting Jesus?

    Where in the scripture does it say anything about a couple millenia of waiting?

    Nowhere in the scripture does it say that the Messiah would wait all this time, so it's not surprising that they're a little skeptical. hell, I'm surprised that there aren't more skeptics.




    SCREW CHIVALRY!
  5. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    DarthOB1 wrote:

    Thats just not true!

    MANY Jews living today accept as fact that a man by the name of Jesus lived in the first century C.E. Even the Jewish Encyclopedia of 1904 identifies Jesus as the ?Founder of Christianity? and places the time of his birth at about 2 B.C.E.


    I think that's a misrepresentation. I would say that nearly all Jews living today are uninterested in whether Jesus lived or not. What difference does it make to them? If they did an impartial look at the historical record, they would find that no contemporaries wrote of him, the existing references from the end of the first century may be Christian interpolations from later centuries, and no one knows exactly who wrote the gospels or when, accept that no copies predate the second century.

    So that when WormieSaber writes:

    I believe the Jews were kicked out of Isreal entirely around 70 A.D.-80 A.D., if I'm correct. Also, around that time, the holy temple was destroyed. Interesting, Jesus himself predicted that the jews would reject him, and that the temple would be destroyed.

    It's even more interesting that nothing about what Jesus did or said is proved to have been written prior to 70-80 A.D. - time enough to include historical events into Jesus's supposed prophecies. Jesus could say or do anything, because there is no historical evidence that anyone who wrote the gospels had ever met Jesus.

    The Jews of the first and second century rejected Christianity because 1) Christianity hadn't taken form yet as a religion centered around the fictional Jesus of Nazareth (no evidence that Nazareth existed) and, 2) once the "story of Jesus" coalesced in the second and third centuries, the Jews knew it to be a fraud.
  6. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5


    rolls eyes at Fireman...... ;) [face_laugh]


    As to the "evidence" of two comings, couldn't that, I don't know, mean two phases of his life? Maybe entering Jerusalem on a donkey, then coming back with the power of God after the resurrection?


    Thats basically it in a nut shell!

    Nowhere in the scripture does it say that the Messiah would wait all this time, so it's not surprising that they're a little skeptical. hell, I'm surprised that there aren't more skeptics.


    Psalm 110:1-2
    1 The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is:
    ?Sit at my right hand
    Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.?

     2 The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, [saying:]
    ?Go subduing in the midst of your enemies

    So there is to be a period of time when he is to just sit at the right hand of God until his enemies are delivered.

    Obviously it doesn't say a millenium, but it is until the gentile tmes are over with! Your homework assignment is to find out how long that is!
  7. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    The simple fact is, Jews don't believe in Jesus because He has not fulfilled the prophecies or duties of the Messiah.

    You say that He has, prove it.




    SCREW CHIVALRY!
  8. The_Fireman Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    Good gosh, JFT! :p

    He has fulfilled the promises concerning His first coming. Scriptures say, as OB1 pointed out, that there is a time where He was to wait with the Father before He came back.

    The reason He hasn't fulfilled the other prophecies is because it isn't time for Him to yet! ;) There were certain things that were supposed to happen beforehand. For example, Israel was supposed to become a nation again. They've done so, but there are still a few other things. There's supposed to be a final and ultimate antichrist who sits in the Temple (which, obviously, has not been built yet) and proclaims that he is God. The final beast is yet to appear, etc. Basically, the enemies of God have not yet been gather at the feet of Messiah, per OB1's post.
  9. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    [face_laugh] at fireman!

    While you are only partially right you sure do have a way with interpreting scripture!
  10. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    He has fulfilled the promises concerning His first coming. Scriptures say, as OB1 pointed out, that there is a time where He was to wait with the Father before He came back.

    His fisrt coming according to your translation. For years, the Jews interpretted the scripture as saying that the Messiah would fulfill all prophecy at the same time. They were mistaken?

    The reason He hasn't fulfilled the other prophecies is because it isn't time for Him to yet!

    And until He fulfills all prophecy, He has not done what the Messiah was supposed to do.

    There were certain things that were supposed to happen beforehand. For example, Israel was supposed to become a nation again. They've done so, but there are still a few other things. There's supposed to be a final and ultimate antichrist who sits in the Temple (which, obviously, has not been built yet) and proclaims that he is God. The final beast is yet to appear, etc. Basically, the enemies of God have not yet been gather at the feet of Messiah, per OB1's post.

    I'm sorry, but I don't quite remember it being in Jewish scriptures that all that would happen during a second coming, or that it had to happen before the Messiah fulfilled all the prophecies.




    SCREW CHIVALRY!
  11. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    I'm sorry, but I don't quite remember it being in Jewish scriptures that all that would happen during a second coming, or that it had to happen before the Messiah fulfilled all the prophecies.

    Because there isn't. Fireman and I do not share the same understanding of scripture!
  12. WormieSaber Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2000
    star 5
    It's even more interesting that nothing about what Jesus did or said is proved to have been written prior to 70-80 A.D. - time enough to include historical events into Jesus's supposed prophecies.

    But how do we know that those things weren't destroyed when the Jews were kicked out of Isreal by the Romans and the temple was completely destroyed in A.D. 70 . If history serves me right, I believe Romans took spoils from the temple and burned some jewish, religious texts.

    It's rather uncanny that the Jews returned to their land and are replanning to build the temple in Jeruseluem. They did not get their country back until 1953. Supposedly, Jesus predicted that also. This prediction dates back to the 2nd century Christian gospels.

    Personally, I find the prophesies uncanny, especially Isaiah 53. Who is the person Isaiah is talking about who would have to die for world's sins, written 750 yrs before Christ?

    Here's the prophesy, I believe, about the Messiah entering Jerusalem on a donkey, described as a humble man.

    Zechariah 9:9-10 , "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout for joy, O daughter of Jerusalem! For behold, your king will come to you, righteous and victorious is he, a humble man riding upon a donkey, upon a foal, a calf of she-donkeys."



  13. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    Jesus is talking about spiritual Israel not the nation of Israel!

    Israel had their chance as Gods chosen people.
    He no longer uses the nation of Israel as his chosen people because of their not accepting Jesus as Messiah!



  14. SLR Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2002
    star 5
    DarthOB1, PPOR your assertion that God has abandoned the Jews.
  15. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    Matthew 21:42-43

    Jesus said to them: ?Did YOU never read in the Scriptures, ?The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes?? 43 This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits.

    Matt. 23:37, 38

    ?Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,?how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But you people did not want it. Look! Your house is abandoned to you.?
  16. SLR Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2002
    star 5
    And those two sources might not be a wee bit biased? The Gospels were written to get people to accept Jesus as the truth. You don't think they may have been skewed just a bit to discredit Jews and Judaism?
  17. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    No because even after Jesus was on earth, the priviledge of becoming part of the spiritual Israel first went to the Jews, and then to the gentiles as the Greek scriptures point out..
  18. The_Fireman Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    God did abandon them, OB1. They were cut off, so that everyone else could be grafted in. However, a remnant remained, and eventually they will be restored. Scripture is very clear on this.
  19. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    I never said likewise!
  20. Jedi_Rhysode Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 15, 2004
    star 2
    I think I lean more towards fireman's interpretation than darthOB1's. BTW, what the heck does PPOR mean?
  21. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    Promote Prophecy or Repent?
  22. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    [face_laugh]

    I think it means post proof of retract!

    Jedi_Rhysode check these scritures out. May or may not help to determine whether or not it is a spiritual Israel or the nation of Israel.


    Gal. 3:27-29: ?All of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham?s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.?

    Point:
    From God?s standpoint, it is no longer natural descent from Abraham that determines who are Abraham?s seed.



    Ezek. 37:21, 22, JP: ?Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, whither they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be king to them all.?

    Point:
    Israel today is not a nation under a king of the royal line of David. Theirs is a republic.



    Isa. 2:2-4, JP: ?It shall come to pass in the end of days, that the mountain of the LORD?S house shall be established as the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many peoples shall go and say: ?Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths.? . . . And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.?

    Point:
    In Jerusalem today, where the temple was formerly located there is no ?house of the God of Jacob,? but, instead, an Islamic shrine. And there is no move on the part of Israel or its neighbors to ?beat their swords into plowshares.? They depend for survival on military preparedness.



    Isa. 35:1, 2, JP: ?The wilderness and the parched land shall be glad; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice, even with joy and singing; the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon; they shall see the glory of the LORD, the excellency of our God.?

    Point:
    Remarkable reforestation and irrigation projects have been successfully undertaken in Israel. But its leaders do not give credit to the Lord God. As a former premier, David Ben-Gurion, said: ?Israel is determined . . . to conquer the desert and make it flourish by the power of science and the pioneering spirit, and to transform the country into a bastion of democracy.?


  23. The_Fireman Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    Gal. 3:27-29: ?All of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham?s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.?

    Point:
    From God?s standpoint, it is no longer natural descent from Abraham that determines who are Abraham?s seed.


    I guess I can't argue this; however, this statement of Paul's does not negate God's promises to the nation of Israel. While it's true that both Jew AND Gentile can share in the blessings of Abraham, and it's true that many of both groups WILL share in those blessings, that doesn't mean that God no longer cares about the literal descendants, and it certainly doesn't mean He no longer has a plan and purpose for them.

    Ezek. 37:21, 22, JP: ?Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, whither they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be king to them all.?

    Point:
    Israel today is not a nation under a king of the royal line of David. Theirs is a republic.


    Exactly, which is why Jesus has not yet come back. This has yet to be fulfilled. Jesus is that King. He will return and reign in Jerusalem over all the earth.

    Isa. 2:2-4, JP: ?It shall come to pass in the end of days, that the mountain of the LORD?S house shall be established as the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many peoples shall go and say: ?Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths.? . . . And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.?

    Point:
    In Jerusalem today, where the temple was formerly located there is no ?house of the God of Jacob,? but, instead, an Islamic shrine. And there is no move on the part of Israel or its neighbors to ?beat their swords into plowshares.? They depend for survival on military preparedness.


    Indeed. This has yet to happen. Doesn't mean it won't. ;) Remember, it took almost 2 millenia for Israel to even get it's nationality back. Governments change, societies evolve. They'll soon get their Temple back, and war will put to end. This is after all is said and done, when Jesus reigns in Jerusalem.

    Isa. 35:1, 2, JP: ?The wilderness and the parched land shall be glad; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice, even with joy and singing; the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon; they shall see the glory of the LORD, the excellency of our God.?

    Point:
    Remarkable reforestation and irrigation projects have been successfully undertaken in Israel. But its leaders do not give credit to the Lord God. As a former premier, David Ben-Gurion, said: ?Israel is determined . . . to conquer the desert and make it flourish by the power of science and the pioneering spirit, and to transform the country into a bastion of democracy.?


    All that these passages prove is that these prophecies have yet to be fulfilled.
  24. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    again:

    Matthew 21:42-43

    Jesus said to them: ?Did YOU never read in the Scriptures, ?The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes?? 43 This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits.

    God is done with Israel. He no longer favors them as his people.


    Matt. 23:37, 38

    ?Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,?how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But you people did not want it. Look! Your house is abandoned to you.?

    We will just have to wait and see if they rebuild the temple won't we. My guess is they will not. Not now, not ever!
  25. The_Fireman Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    Again, they were punished for their rejection of the Messiah. God left them and turned to the rest of the world. No argument there.

    However, He's not done with them. He will make them His people again, they will bear witness to the truth to the world during the Tribulation, and their chief city, Jerusalam, will be the capitol in Jesus' kingdom. His throne will be in the Temple, which, btw, they are already prepairing to rebuild. ;)
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.