Why don't Jews accept Jesus as the Messiah?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by The Gatherer, Jul 26, 2003.

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  1. WormieSaber Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2000
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    His throne will be in the Temple, which, btw, they are already prepairing to rebuild.

    I believe there are already floor plans for this temple. They don't know they are currently fulfilling prophecy.

    Much still has to happen before his return. Jesus will be like a "thief in the night" and take away those who are chosen in Christ (the rapture), Christians who are born again by the holy spirit (to spare them the trauma of tribulation).

    According to prophesy, Jesus will specifically return on the mount of olives where he gave his famous sermon on the mount speech ("love your enemies etc."). It is already well known that there is a fault line on the mount of olives. According to prophecy, the earth will rumble when he stands there once again, in glory. Interesting stuff.
  2. Darth Mischievous Jedi Grand Master

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    Oct 12, 1999
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    The 'rapture' isn't a tenet of Christianity, generally - only in certain Protestant philosophies is it subscribed to.

    I don't subscribe to belief in a 'rapture' before the Final Judgement where people are simply 'spirited away' to heaven before the event.

    I tend to think the Final Judgement will occur in a fashion that no one expects - i.e., it simply happens upon Christ's return as Judge to judge the living and the dead.
  3. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    you are correct darth!


    However, He's not done with them. He will make them His people again, they will bear witness to the truth to the world during the Tribulation, and their chief city, Jerusalam, will be the capitol in Jesus' kingdom. His throne will be in the Temple, which, btw, they are already prepairing to rebuild.

    That may be so, but it will be in vain if they even get that far.

    John 4:19-23

    ?Sir, I perceive you are a prophet. 20 Our forefathers worshiped in this mountain; but YOU people say that in Jerusalem is the place where persons ought to worship.? 21 Jesus said to her: ?Believe me, woman, The hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will YOU people worship the Father. 22 YOU worship what YOU do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation originates with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him.

    Jesus is saying that the place of worship is not important when identifying his true followers.

    In other words its not worship in the temple that counts but rather the form of worship (spirit and truth ) that counts.
  4. The_Fireman Jedi Padawan

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    Jul 8, 2001
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  5. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

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    That's curious :confused:

    Because according to you Jesus is going to rule from there after hos second comming.

    So how are people going to worship the father when he resides in Jerusalem?

    He specifically said "The hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will YOU people worship the Father"
  6. The_Fireman Jedi Padawan

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    Jul 8, 2001
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    He was talking about when the Romans kicked the Jews out, I believe.
  7. Jo_Jo_Binks530 Jedi Youngling

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    Oct 7, 2003
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    wow, that was a long read, oh well, fastanating none the less.
  8. Blue_Jedi33 Jedi Master

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    Aug 12, 2003
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    He never meet the people's expectations they wanted to make him king and he ran away from political power.

    "My kingdom is no part of this world" speech to Pilot summed it up.

    Rejected first by the religious clergy, and then the general populace "We have no King but Ceasar" line.

    They wanted a political powerhouse to liberate them from Roman rule, that was never Jesus's reason to come to the earth.

    But he did fulfill all the Hebrew prophesies that was why some jews stuck with him, they knew the truth.

    Saddly most did not understand, and God's blessing left the nation of Isreal, as shown by what happened to the capital of true worship (Jerusalem)in 70 CE.

    He would use a new method of worship that would not centre around a single nation from that point on.
  9. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
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    But he did fulfill all the Hebrew prophesies

    Except, he hasn't fulfilled them all. The messiah was to bring peace to the world, and Jesus didn't. The standard respose is that that will happen in his Second Coming. Well, until that time, Jesus is not the messiah, but a potential messiah, because he hasn't fulfilled the greatest prophecy of all.




    b4k4^2
  10. The_Fireman Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
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    "Greatest prophecy of them all"? I think not.

    The Kingdom of God, the one that will last for all eternity, and after judgment be the ONLY kingdom, the only body of people, that exists in the entire universe. That kingdom is made up not of all the different nations existing on earth, but of those who are saved. It is a spiritual kingdom that is still growing, and will continue to grow until it is finally in place, after the day of judgment.

    In otherwords, the most important prophecy was the Suffering Servant; the act of God forsaking God so that we, the forsaken, might be accepted as part of God, part of His kingdom. Bringing peace to earth is only second to this, for the manner in which peace will come is for all nations except Israel to be overthrown, all powers destroyed except for God Himself, and all people removed from the book of life of the Lamb except for those saved.
  11. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Knight

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    Jul 31, 2002
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    Um, no. The messiah was supposed to bring about peace. Jesus didn't do that. Therefore, He's not the messiah. Now, if He comes back and does what the messiah's supposed to do, then He will be the messiah. But He hasn't fulfilled everything the messiah's supposed to do.




    b4k4^2
  12. Psychotic_Sith Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2004
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    To get back on subject and away from all the attempted prostelyzing, there's NO REASON the Jews should have accepted him. He didn't liberate them from bondage; instead, he placed a large stigma on their heads that carried into the Middle Ages, when many Jewish people were the victims of prejudice, because it was thought that their people were responsible for his death.
  13. Blue_Jedi33 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2003
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    P_S.

    The Religious Jewish clergy was responsible for his death, pushing it onto the Romans to do their dirty work. The general Jewish populace of the day got conned by them to go along with it, this is historical fact.

    Do you really think that any of the Jewish clergy of the 21 century would ever admit to such a tragic error?

    This answers the title of this thread.

    However individual Jews today are not accountable for what happened almost 2000 years ago, they can study the entire bible and make their own choice as to whether they should accept Jesus as the Messiah.

    If they do, great...but it is very hard for them to break out of their culture...which might condem them for accepting Jesus.
  14. The_Fireman Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    Um, no. The messiah was supposed to bring about peace. Jesus didn't do that. Therefore, He's not the messiah. Now, if He comes back and does what the messiah's supposed to do, then He will be the messiah. But He hasn't fulfilled everything the messiah's supposed to do.

    I challenge you to show a prophecy that says He will bring peace. I assume you are talking about peace between the various nations and peoples. He WILL bring peace to the earth by wiping out almost everyone. Apparently that's the only way peace can exist between us pitiful humans. The point is, though, that Scripture is very clear that the Messiah will judge the nations, and all that will be left is Israel, both physical Israel (because in the end they will turn to the Messiah, Jesus) as well as "spiritual Israel" (the Church, including Gentiles who have been saved).
  15. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Knight

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    Jul 31, 2002
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    Fireman

    Even assuming that your interpretation is correct (and I never said it wasn't), JESUS STILL HASN'T DONE IT. Which means, He has not fulfilled all the prophecies of the messiah, thus, until He does that, HE IS NOT THE MESSIAH BECAUSE OF THE SIMPLE FACT THAT HE HAS NOT DONE ALL OF WHAT THE MESSIAH IS SUPPOSED TO DO. When and if He comes back and does what He's supposed to do, then He will be the messiah.

    Capice?




    b4k4^2
  16. Psychotic_Sith Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2004
    star 3
    Blue_Jedi-

    I never debated that the Jewish clergy was responsible for His death. However, there's no reason the blame should be leveled on any Jew other than the ones who did it; whereas your Christian bretheren were being prejudiced against, sometimes even killing, Jews for something they had NO CONTROL OVER. Then again, that does seem to be the way of the Christian God...
  17. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9

    The Religious Jewish clergy was responsible for his death, pushing it onto the Romans to do their dirty work. The general Jewish populace of the day got conned by them to go along with it, this is historical fact.


    No, it isn't.

    Jesus was likely a member of the pharisees, and a rabbi. The Romans had everything to do with his death and the Jews of his day had little (if anything) to do with it.

    The tragedy is that the real history and facts have been twisted or lost.

    Jews don't need a messiah, and they're just fine as they are. I note again that the Prophets are in the middle of the Hebrew Bible, not at the end. This was changed for the Christian Bible, which put the prophets at the end.

    All the arguing about whether Jews accept Jesus as the messiah or whether he was the messiah at all is, in reality, quite irrelevant and pointless.

    Then again, that does seem to be the way of the Christian God...

    No, not the Christian God. Many Christians' interpretation and twisting of God.
  18. Jedi_Rhysode Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 15, 2004
    star 2
    Jason. ,Well, in that case, I believe that Jesus is the Messiah because he fulfills prophecies within reason. It's kinda foolish to say he isn't just because he hasn't done something that he assured us he eventually would, and so far he's done nothing to suggest that he's not good to keep his word.
  19. dizfactor Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 5
    I challenge you to show a prophecy that says He will bring peace. I assume you are talking about peace between the various nations and peoples. He WILL bring peace to the earth by wiping out almost everyone. Apparently that's the only way peace can exist between us pitiful humans.

    Fireman, i generally respect you, and your beliefs, but this is creepy. it scares the bejeezus out of me that someone who shares them has his finger on the big red button.
  20. Psychotic_Sith Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2004
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    No, not the Christian God. Many Christians' interpretation and twisting of God.

    No, not really. Look how many cities God destroyed in the OT for being "wicked". It is impossible that every single person in those cities were wicked; and these people would have been destroyed along with the wicked, regardless if they were evil or not. Thus seems the way of your God.
  21. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9
    I'd say it's more along the lines of the way of the storytellers more than God.
  22. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
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    Well, in that case, I believe that Jesus is the Messiah because he fulfills prophecies within reason. It's kinda foolish to say he isn't just because he hasn't done something that he assured us he eventually would, and so far he's done nothing to suggest that he's not good to keep his word.

    I state that I'm the messiah.

    Now, prove that I'm wrong.

    I promise that I'll get around to doing what I need to do, but until then, trust me. :)

    In all seriousness, to say that he's not the messiah because He hasn't done it all yet is perfectly justifiable.

    I am about to end my third year at college, and still have one to go. Can I say that I am a college graduate? I give you no doubt to think that I won't get there eventually, but doesn't it stand to reason that I cannot call myself a college graduate because I haven't done everything a college graduate has to do?

    the same applies for Jesus.




    b4k4^2
  23. The_Fireman Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    Fireman, i generally respect you, and your beliefs, but this is creepy. it scares the bejeezus out of me that someone who shares them has his finger on the big red button.

    Yeah, I understand how it could sound a bit creepy, but no more than a naturalistic atheist's view on the world, how we got here, and where we'll end up. We're all gonna be dead anyway at some point, and eventually, if the other side is right, the human race will die out eventually.

    Jesus said it again and again, eventually, His kingdom will be all that's left, and it will be made up only of His followers, past, present, and future, from the beginning of time to the end. The rest of the world, which is the majority, won't make it.

    JFT, it doesn't apply to Jesus, because Messiahship is not based on the fulfilling of prophecy, but on a role. If Jesus has that role, whether He's fulfilled all of the prophecies is irrelevant to Him being the Messiah. He has done enough for many of us to believe He is the Messiah. We have faith that He will fulfill the rest; why? Because the chances of Him fulfilling all that He has are remarkably low, and yet He did it. So we have reason to believe the rest will come later.
  24. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
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    Fireman

    Roles and prophecies...alright, I'll bite.

    What is the ultimate role of the Messiah?

    Has Jesus fulfilled that role?

    If yes, then He's the messiah.

    If no, then He isn't, or at least, He isn't yet the messiah.


    But riddle me this:

    How can you dismiss prophecies one moment, then hold them up as proof the next?




    b4k4^2
  25. The_Fireman Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    What is the ultimate role of the Messiah?

    God. The ultimate role of the Messiah is God in the flesh. Therefore, prophecies are only an indication of who the Messiah is, NOT the definition of the Messiah.

    Has Jesus fulfilled that role?

    I and many others believe He has. The Old Testament says that the Jews will look upon Yahweh whom they pierced, and they will mourn for the Messiah. This says that Messiah and God are one. Other prophecies, which refer to the Messiah's first time on earth, have allegedly been fulfilled by Jesus (I use that term for the sake of discussion). It is not hard, then, to come to the conclusion that IF Jesus did THOSE things, then He IS the Messiah, and will come back and do the OTHER things.

    But riddle me this:

    How can you dismiss prophecies one moment, then hold them up as proof the next?


    I don't dismiss them. I am looking forward to the rest being fulfilled. In fact, I often times find myself referring to THEM more than the ones that were fulfilled 2000 years ago.
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