Why don't Jews accept Jesus as the Messiah?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by The Gatherer, Jul 26, 2003.

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  1. WormieSaber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2000
    star 5
    Jesus said he would return, and so the rest is fulfilled then. How is this so unbelievable? The idea actually fulfills prohecy.

    History tells us that his body was never found, like he never existed . In fact some believe he never existed because there was no body. What if he had really ascended into heaven? flesh and all... Personally, I'd be concerned, especially after reading Isaiah 53. It sounds like the cruxifiction to me.

    Jesus was likely a member of the pharisees, and a rabbi.

    Umm, no offense, but there is no evidence at all to back up this theory. That's guess work.

    The Romans had everything to do with his death and the Jews of his day had little (if anything) to do with it.

    Guess work. How often did Pharisees get cruxified.? It would have been a rare occurance and written about as such.

    The tragedy is that the real history and facts have been twisted or lost.

    Then all history could be tragedy. If it happens with one thing, could surely happen to everything else.

    Jews don't need a messiah, and they're just fine as they are.

    I don't know, I'm not Jewish, but what harm is there in a Messiah? There is plenty of evidence dating back from 200 BC aside from religious texts that suggests Jews were waiting for a Messiah. None agreed on interpretation, which seems natural, but jews today are simply not educated on the subject, and so they are not waiting nor could they care..

    I note again that the Prophets are in the middle of the Hebrew Bible, not at the end. This was changed for the Christian Bible, which put the prophets at the end.

    The Bible is fairly chronological. If you read the texts, you can pretty much know what order they go in.

    All the arguing about whether Jews accept Jesus as the messiah or whether he was the messiah at all is, in reality, quite irrelevant and pointless.

    If people ignore the religious texts, then it is. It all depends on if a Jew cares. You don't need to believe in a Messiah to be jewish, but if he already came, then waiting is pointless, I agree.

  2. Blue_Jedi33 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2003
    star 5
    KnightWriter

    Sorry Mate, but you are wrong, you better read the Greek Scriptures...did you forget about Judas and the Thirty pieces of silver paid for by whom...the Jewish Clergy.

    The Jews got the ball rolling and the Romans finished the job, historical fact.

    The Jewish Clergy is 100% at fault, the Romans were pagans, what did they know anyway...nothing about prophesy thats for sure.

    Jesus himself said of the the Romans "Father forgive them, they do not know what they doing" something like that.

    But he condemmed the Jewish Clergy saying very clearly they were headed for a state called "Gehenna"
    Basically God will never forgive that group (Jewish Clergy of the 1st Century) for knowing better and killing his son anyway.

    Interestingly, the Romans soldiers who did the killing are slated for a resurrection at a future time.

  3. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    I'm curious, if Jesus was supposed to die in exactly that manner, why would god be angry? Why would the Jews never be forgiven? If they were fulfilling prophecy then isn't a bit pointless for god to be angry at something that was meant to happen?
  4. Blue_Jedi33 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2003
    star 5
    FID

    Don't twist it to encompass all Jews because it doesn't. Especially those born after 70 AD.

    God has the ability to see the future when he chooses to see it.

    Sort of like us choosing to turn on the TV to see & hear what the News is today. We decide when we will do it, same with God.

    He looked into the future on this issue, so it had to happen, as he saw it would.
  5. The_Fireman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    In a sense I agree with Blue_Jedi33... This can be applied to all things within the Bible...

    Why does God create someone knowing ahead of time they will go to hell? Why does the Bible talk about predestination, but then give us rules to follow, and knowledge of the path to eternal life, expecting us to "choose" and follow it?

    It'a difficult to understand, but my opinion is that basically, God knew everything from the beginning. When He created time, in a sense it was already complete from where He sat. There is evidence for this in the Bible, numerous mentions of Jesus being slain from the foundation of the world, the names of those saved being written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, etc., etc. So even though time was complete in God's mind from the beginning, even though, essentially, He had already been there and done that, it wasn't so on our timeline. Because of that, we have the ability to choose for ourselves. The Romans who crucified Jesus had the ability to NOT do it, the Jewish authorities had the ability to NOT give the order to crucify Jesus, and Judas had the ability to NOT betray Christ. However, it was GOING to happen. God had already known it was. It was that way from the beginning. They were predestined to walk the path they walked, but they did it of their own choosing.

    All prophecy works that way. Thus, it is not some guideline that events have to follow, it's not instruction, as I was alluding to with JFT; it is merely a preview of what will come, what has already happened from where God is sitting.
  6. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Umm, no offense, but there is no evidence at all to back up this theory. That's guess work.

    There's evidence, and it exists in academia. Check a copy of the New Testament sometime and observe that Jesus is called "rabbi". The only people called that during those times were Rabbis, and in the tradition of the pharasees.

    Guess work. How often did Pharisees get cruxified.? It would have been a rare occurance and written about as such.

    Again, academia has answers to this.

    I don't know, I'm not Jewish, but what harm is there in a Messiah?

    There's no harm. It's just that I don't think Jews of today are particularly focused on a messiah of any kind.

    None agreed on interpretation, which seems natural, but jews today are simply not educated on the subject, and so they are not waiting nor could they care..

    There are plenty of Jews who are far, far more educated than Christians on the subject of Jesus and the concept of the messiah in general.

    The Bible is fairly chronological. If you read the texts, you can pretty much know what order they go in.

    Who put it in the order that it's currently in? And if you read the Hebrew Bible, your concept of "chronology" is in for a radical shift.

    You don't need to believe in a Messiah to be jewish, but if he already came, then waiting is pointless, I agree.


    It's not that he already came. It's more like that he doesn't need to come at all.


    But he condemmed the Jewish Clergy saying very clearly they were headed for a state called "Gehenna"

    Gehenna was a trash heap outside Jerusalem.

    Sorry Mate, but you are wrong, you better read the Greek Scriptures...did you forget about Judas and the Thirty pieces of silver paid for by whom...the Jewish Clergy.


    So says Scripture. That doesn't automatically mean that's how something happened. I don't really buy the idea that Jews had much to do with the death of Christ.

    The Jewish Clergy is 100% at fault, the Romans were pagans, what did they know anyway...nothing about prophesy thats for sure.

    No, the Romans were at fault. Pilate killed people left and right for seditition, and Jesus was no exception.

    Interestingly, the Romans soldiers who did the killing are slated for a resurrection at a future time.

    How so?

    FID, I wouldn't put much stock in old ideas that Jews were responsible for the death of Christ. Newer scholarship doesn't bear it out.

    The only thing Jews of the time were upset at Jesus was for not being the messiah in their eyes. In the eyes of those that mattered (the Romans), Jesus was a revolutionary and for that he was put to death.
  7. SexyStarWarschic Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2002
    star 4
    Why don't Jews accept Jesus as the Messiah?

    I don't know you'd think they would finally give in now after being oppressed for so long! Don't u notice everything bad always happens to them?

    ~*I've got the power! :cool:
  8. The_Fireman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    And yet they always manage to pull through somehow.

    Curious.
  9. WormieSaber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2000
    star 5
    There's evidence, and it exists in academia.
    Check a copy of the New Testament sometime and observe that Jesus is called "rabbi". The only people called that during those times were Rabbis, and in the tradition of the pharasees.


    I should think there would be great contradictions in the teachings of Jesus if he had been a Pharisee. A Pharisee was basically an ancient cult of leaders who resided at the Temple and who believed in following levitical laws exactly, to the "T". Christ's teachings were more flexible, and often opposed issues of Levital law, for example saving the woman from being stoned to death due to maritial unfaithfulness, and doing miracles on the sabbath. Pharisees were not traditionally called Rabbis. A Rabbi in this case, the way it is being used to describe Jesus can be a term of affection, as in "teacher". Jesus was often called "teacher" as well, in the Bible, or "Rabbi" for he was recognized as being a teacher of the law and an authority on the law.

    Again, academia has answers to this.

    Academia, I don't understand. What answers?


    There are plenty of Jews who are far, far more educated than Christians on the subject of Jesus and the concept of the messiah in general.

    That's a pretty general statement, I'm afraid. Taking into account that most Jews (not to discriminate) aren't even aware of the Messiah Prophecy let alone care about it leaves much to be desired on their part. I've known many dedicated christians who read their Bible every day, study diligently. Old Testament and New.

    Who put it in the order that it's currently in? And if you read the Hebrew Bible, your concept of "chronology" is in for a radical shift.

    The content is what matters. The content of written events, in this case. You can figure out when it is taking place just by reading it. The order of book placement doesn't matter at all.


    It's not that he already came. It's more like that he doesn't need to come at all.

    Then maybe Moses wasn't needed, nor was Isaiah, nor was any other spiritual leader in the Bible , for that matter.

    I don't really buy the idea that Jews had much to do with the death of Christ.

    Seeing as how Jesus' teachings often opposed the power of levitical thought amoung the Pharisees, I'd double take on that. I think it's quite possible without taking too much evidence from the Bible, that Jesus could have offended the Pharisees, gained fame amoung the lay people thus caused discourse amoung the religious-jewish hierarchy at the Temple.

  10. Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 1999
    star 5
    To jump in here-

    The jewish people loved Jesus; it was the clergy who wanted him out. Politics as usual, he was a threat to their authority, and he exposed their hypocrisy.

    To blame all the jews of the time is simply ridiculous. Remember, Christianity is really messianic judaism, with new traditions, and new takes on some old traditions.

    The "blame game" is pointless and foolish. Christ had to die to redeem mankind. What happened happened for a reason, and according to G-d's plan. That's all there is to it.

    Peace,

    V-03
  11. Mastadge Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 7
    There are plenty of Jews who are far, far more educated than Christians on the subject of Jesus and the concept of the messiah in general.

    That's a pretty general statement, I'm afraid. Taking into account that most Jews (not to discriminate) aren't even aware of the Messiah Prophecy let alone care about it leaves much to be desired on their part. I've known many dedicated christians who read their Bible every day, study diligently. Old Testament and New.


    Okay, this is stupid. Yes, there are many Christians, and many Jews, who read their respective Bibles daily. There are many more who don't read them at all. And there are fewer who actively study. I know several Christians who read from the Bible daily, but never seek out different translations, commentaries, or anything. They know the words, but honestly don't spend much time considering what those words really mean. And then there are other who read much more actively. I think that one advantage active Jewish readers tend to have over Christians is that they're more likely to be able to read Hebrew than Christians are to read Hebrew or Greek, and so are less likely to need to rely on someone else's translation. I'd also say that it's likely that simply in terms of percentage, there are probably far more Jews who've studied the Tanakh and New Testament than Christians, simply because there are far fewer Jews on the planet. So, generally, it's folly to speak of which religion knows the scriptures better. But I will say that I am a Jewish atheist, and have read and studied both testaments a lot more extensively, and probably have a much better understanding of both religions, than at least about 95% of the Christians I know and about 70% of the Jews I know. All of which is a bit off-topic, I know.
  12. The_Fireman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    Good post, Wormie, as usual. ;)

    Vaderize, I suppose you might be saying what you said for the sake of discussion, but I gotta ask: do you actually believe Jesus was the Messiah?

    And Mastadge: I think that one advantage active Jewish readers tend to have over Christians is that they're more likely to be able to read Hebrew than Christians are to read Hebrew or Greek, and so are less likely to need to rely on someone else's translation.

    However, many of us take the time to AT LEAST look at the original languages and read other translations of the word(s) in question. Certainly it would be next to impossible for one who does not know the language to translate entire phrases, but usually it is only a single word that causes a problem; in that case, one need only go to a lexicon of the original languages and look at other ways in which the word is translated, as well as the definition and literal translation of the word. This is something I and many others do quite often.
  13. jedibendubruce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 2002
    star 3
    A Rabbi in this case, the way it is being used to describe Jesus can be a term of affection, as in "teacher". Jesus was often called "teacher" as well, in the Bible, or "Rabbi" for he was recognized as being a teacher of the law and an authority on the law.

    Good post Wormie, you are exactly right. He was the people?s teacher as opposed to a figurehead of the law. In Mishnaic Hebrew & later Aramaic the word rabbi means teacher. In the Hebrew vernacular which is closely linked to modern Zionism, the word is often capitalized & written as The Rabbi as in father. Jesus was a friend/rabbi (teacher of the people) & it was a word of affection.

    That's a pretty general statement, I'm afraid. Taking into account that most Jews (not to discriminate) aren't even aware of the Messiah Prophecy let alone care about it leaves much to be desired on their part. I've known many dedicated christians who read their Bible every day, study diligently. Old Testament and New.

    You are absolutely right again. Modern day Jews often have a different view of Jesus. The Haskala movement in the 18th century that lead to modern day Judaism sees Jesus as a teacher but the bulk of their views come from Levitical Law set about in the Torah. The New testament is written in Greek & the Jews being very traditional have pretty much stayed with customary literature especially the Pentateuch which is the 1st 5 books of the OT.

    The content is what matters. The content of written events, in this case. You can figure out when it is taking place just by reading it. The order of book placement doesn't matter at all.

    Yep,- the Bible as a whole is taken into context but each book speaks for itself.

    I think it's quite possible without taking too much evidence from the Bible, that Jesus could have offended the Pharisees, gained fame amoung the lay people thus caused discourse amoung the religious-jewish hierarchy at the Temple.

    Another good point. The Pharisees & Sadducees were sticklers for the Law. Then here comes Jesus who teaches about compassion & the people love him.

    The jewish people loved Jesus; it was the clergy who wanted him out. Politics as usual, he was a threat to their authority, and he exposed their hypocrisy.

    Another good point Vader.

    Christ had to die to redeem mankind. What happened happened for a reason, and according to G-d's plan.

    I completely agree. Jesus came to die for the sins of mankind, period. He was teaching people why & knew he was only here for a short time which is what he told the disciples. How much more love & compassion can one have than to lay down his life for another.

    There are several direct Hebrew to English translations of the OT. I have one & it is very interesting. English words are often added to complete a phrase in Hebrew.

    EDIT for spelling
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