PT Why fight Grievous with lightsabers?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Jesse Booth, Aug 5, 2014.

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  1. Alienware Jedi Grand Master

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    Apr 19, 2013
    star 1
    RotS is my favourite episode, but I have to agree (altohugh I wouldn't describe him as completely terrible). And while I do understand his part as the leader of the droid army, I have to admit that there was too much screen time on Utapau devoted to the duel between him and Obi-Wan.
    Last edited by Alienware, Aug 8, 2014
  2. VanishingReality Jedi Grand Master

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    Apr 21, 2013
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    In 2003 Clone Wars Mace Windu did this. It was the reason for why Grievous coughs all the time
  3. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Vader was a Sith and as established in the EU prior to the PT, Sith Lords other than Vader used them. As did Palpatine.

    [IMG]

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    Not to mention that in the second draft of ANH, everyone used Lightsabers.

    [IMG]

    And as Qui-gon said, "Maybe I killed a Jedi and took it from him." Which is why Grievous had his and where Ventress got hers.
  4. Among the Clouds Force Ghost

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    Which was retconned, as he coughs incessantly in TCW.
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  5. Dartht Punk Jedi Master

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    Jul 17, 2014
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    [/quote]

    Vader was never named a Sith onscreen before the prequels.

    EU doesn't count. Lucas didn't think, "Hmmm, I'd better have the Sith use lightsabers in this movie because they do it the spin-off comics." He did it because he wanted to, to have lightsaber duels.


    And in the actual film, only Jedi, former Jedi or Jedi-to-be use them.

    You can't use an early draft as an argument.



    What does Greivous say when he unveils his lightsabers? " "You fool! I've been trained in your Jedi arts by Count Dooku." Not Sith. Jedi arts.
    Last edited by Dartht Punk, Aug 9, 2014
  6. rumsmuggler Chosen One

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    I think the founders of the Sith order were fallen Jedi, so their combat styles would have the same foundations.
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  7. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Vader has been a Sith since the second draft of ANH. Just because he wasn't referred to one in the OT films, doesn't change it. The merchandising, the novelization, the comic adaptation and radio drama all refer to him as a Sith Lord. Ergo, Sith Lords are in the OT. Palpatine was the only one who became a Sith Lord later on as he was originally just a corrupt politician who was strong in the Force.

    No, that's not what I meant. When "Tales Of The Jedi" was first being written, Lucas did explain to the writers that the Sith were like the Jedi in many ways and that included using Lightsabers. It was never just a Jedi's weapon. The first draft featured a Sith Knight using a Lightsaber against the Starkillers.


    Yes, I can. Lucas was never keeping it as only a Jedi's weapon. That's why Vader, a Sith Lord, had one. That's why Grievous uses one. That's why the Inquistor and Ventress used them. As did Tor Vizsla with his dark saber.


    And that has nothing to do with other people using Lightsabers. Especially non Force users like Vizsla and Grievous. Anyone can use a Lightsaber to fight, but only someone strong in the Force can deflect blaster bolts, much less fight a Jedi or a Sith to a stand still. Even gaining a victory over them. I can pick up a sword and swing it around like a badass. But I go up against Anthony De Longis, a trained swordsman and I'd get my ass handed to me in five seconds.

    Correct.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Aug 9, 2014
  8. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    I remember seeing at least one "not-Force User" deflect blaster bolts at least once in TCW - can't recall who though - it could have been Vizsla.
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  9. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    But nowhere near as effective as a Jedi and a Sith. Hell, just look at Vizsla fighting Obi-wan.



    His only advantage was three other Mandalorians and his jet pack. And don't even get me started on Maul fighting him.
  10. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Fair enough. Prescience makes a big difference when it comes to stopping incoming bolts.
  11. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Indeed. Vizsla got lucky deflecting any blaster bolts. But have him do what Obi-wan did in the Geonosis arena. Whole other ball game.
  12. darth ladnar Force Ghost

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    Mar 20, 2013
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    There are levels of Force-sensitivity. It's not just a black or white type thing. Anakin had very high midichlorian levels, so he had exceptional Force potential, but everyone has some level of midichlorians in their cells. In the EU, there are individuals who have higher than average levels of midis -- not high enough for them to gain Force powers, but still powerful enough to be more effective in combat. Grievous was a great Kaleesh warrior in the first place, and then after his body was destroyed, Palpatine and Dooku tried to infuse what was left of him with Sifo-Dyas's Force-rich blood. That didn't give him Force powers equal to those of Sifo-Dyas, but it still may have boosted his Force potential even further. So, Grievous and Pre Vizsla may have been somewhere between average Joe and Jedi elite in terms of their connection to the Force. (That's one thing I like about the midis. My take on the Force from the OT is that you either have it or you don't. From the PT we know that each person has his own level of Force potential which can only be reached through training.)

    It also seems to me that Obi-Wan doesn't really think of Grievous as much of a threat. He's smiling at the start of the duel and remains pretty chipper even when Grievous tells him in the middle of the duel that he must he realize he's doomed. To me, it seems like Obi sort of likes the challenge of fighting someone unique like a 4-armed opponent. So from my pov, Obi could've chosen to Force throw Grievous earlier than he does, but he's having fun sparring with the unique opponent. Later, when he loses his saber, it does seem strange that Obi doesn't turn to Force powers to overwhelm Grievous, but maybe Obi is too tired at that point????

    I also don't think Grievous's multiple arms present much of a threat to Obi. Grievous was beaten by Ventress and other Jedi during TCW. His 4 arms aren't much of an issue to a well-trained Jedi. While a normal person could never deal with a 4-armed opponent since there is no way to block 4 sabers at the same time, a high Force-sensitive like Obi-Wan would be able to anticipate that his opponent would swing all 4 swords at him at once and move himself to safe position well in advance.
  13. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Grievous had an injection of Midichlorians into what was left of his organics, but they did nothing for him. Though this only developed because of the Visionaries book that had taken various bits of concept art and was turned into an anthology book. As it is, it has no bearing on the cartoon and the films. Vizsla has Midichlorians, but he cannot touch the Force like the Jedi and Sith. All he had was his own Mandalorian malee training and weapons such as his blaster, cable and jet pack to fight Obi-wan with. And he still got his ass handed to him. Then he goes up against Maul, who isn't at 100% like Obi-wan and he lost his head.

    Obi-wan has faced Grievous before, so he's very familiar with his tactics and his boasting that Dooku taught him does little to intimidate him. But when it comes to later, I think that falls more under the precept that Obi-wan being exhausted as Obi-wan realizing it doesn't do much good. He shoved him earlier and all it did was barely stun Grievous, who turned around and did his spider walk. So it seems he was trying to find a different alternative.


    Exactly. Which when you think about it, the Inquisitor also uses a unique saber which doesn't seem normal for someone strong with the Force. It makes me think that he is strong to a degree, but he's compensating. Hence a double gimmick saber.
  14. rumsmuggler Chosen One

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    Aug 31, 2000
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    That super spin gimmick seem to be more a liability than a useful advantage. imo
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  15. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

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    So as your evidence that lightsabers have always exclusively been Jedi weapons, you're using a quote from the very prequel trilogy which firmly established them as also being Sith weapons? I don't think that tracks.
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  16. darth ladnar Force Ghost

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    Mar 20, 2013
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    What I was going from was something I read in the Darth Plagueis novel (which may not count anymore because its "Legends"). Darth Plagueis gets into a few fights with regular folks, and after killing them, he likes to sense their midichlorian levels and keep them from dying immediately through midichlorian manipulation -- fun stuff like that. On at leat one occasion, with one dying guy, as he senses him, he realizes something like: "Well, this guy has pretty high levels of midis. Not high enough to become a Force-user, but high enough so that it made him clearly better in combat than the rest of them." I think there's another thing from the EU ("Legends") when Maul battles someone who puts up a good fight and it turns out the guy had pretty high levels of midis too. That may have been in the same novel. It talks a lot of midis. That's where I got this idea from. Whether it applies to Pre Vizsla or Grievous (who was once the top Kaleesh warrior) I have no idea. I'm just suggesting it as possibility for why they do pretty well in combat against high level Jedi and Sith.
    Last edited by darth ladnar, Aug 13, 2014
  17. Alexrd Force Ghost

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    Jul 7, 2009
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    I don't recall that. We see non-Force users use lightsabers (Vizsla, Cad Bane and Grievous), but deflecting laser bolts? I don't remember that. (except Grievous, but that's the reason for his cybernetic "improvements". So that he could use lightsabers efficiently without being Force-sensitive).

    Dooku also calls Force abilities "Jedi powers". That doesn't mean the Sith can't use it.
    Last edited by Alexrd, Aug 13, 2014
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  18. Team Padme Force Ghost

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    General Grievous was a huge let down...he had so much potential. I do however think his duel with Obi-Wan is pretty bad ass but it's way too short.
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  19. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    "One of the big issues behind Grievous was that I didn't want a big, powerful villain, I wanted a cunning, you know almost cowardly villain, who isn't super stronger, super powerful but at the same time, you know he's a good fighter but not ... everybody wants him to be bigger, stronger, more powerful than the other villains that we've had and keep ... you know going to the next level I wanted him to be slightly more like the Emperor, you know slightly more like the sleazy, behind-the-scenes kind of guy, that's why I set up the fact that he always runs at the end of every fight, he always gets away."

    --George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.
  20. Dartht Punk Jedi Master

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    Greivous should never have been created in the first place - he was simply a substitute for Dooku when Lucas decided the Count should die earlier in Episode III.
  21. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    No, he wasn't. Grievous was created as a character to keep Obi-wan away from Anakin and to be a military strategist for the Confederacy. He's like Tarkin and the Fetts. A side character who does their job and then are taken out. He was also a reflection of what Anakin becomes.
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  22. darth ladnar Force Ghost

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    Mar 20, 2013
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    I like Grievous and I actually think visually he's cooler and more unique than Darth Maul. I think the one mistake GL made with Grievous was that he didn't also appear in ATOC. You don't get to see enough of Grievous in ROTS. He just runs away on the Invisible Hand and then gets taken out by Obi-Wan. I think Grievous should've been introduced in ATOC and I also think Dooku should've been introduced in TPM as a Jedi who was sympathetic with Qu-Gon's maverick ways. He could've been the sole guy on the Counsel who stood up for Qui-Gon.
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  23. Crystalia Force Ghost

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    Feb 24, 2013
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    No, he wasn't. Grievous was created as a character to keep Obi-wan away from Anakin and to be a military strategist for the Confederacy. He's like Tarkin and the Fetts. A side character who does their job and then are taken out. He was also a reflection of what Anakin becomes.
    -------------------

    Dooku could have easily filled that role,

    and he did for the latter, a Jedi turned Sith, you didn't need further reflection.
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  24. Alexrd Force Ghost

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    Jul 7, 2009
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    Dooku could be a cyborg? That would be a waste of Christopher Lee's talent.

    That's not the only reflection needed.
    Last edited by Alexrd, Aug 18, 2014
  25. Dartht Punk Jedi Master

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    Jul 17, 2014
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    Grievous was created when Lucas moved Dooku's death to earlier in the film, leaving a villain-sized hole.
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