Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Kimball_Kinnison, Mar 13, 2002.
I'm not sure of what to believe about original sin.
Could someone post some verses regarding it?
"God didn't want us to have to pay, even though it is we who commited the crime."
We? Don't implicate me in whatever illegal activities you do on weekends. I have committed no crime. In fact, contrary to popular belief, i am not writing this from prison. Amen.
If I could interject here for a moment:
Thank you to all of you who have responded. It is interesting to see the variety of reasons why each of you believes what you do.
Again, I'd like to reiterate that this is not meant as a discussion of what you believe (there are so many of those already in this forum and we don't need more of them), but why you believe it. Remember, it is impossible for you to be wrong about why you believe something (unless you are lying about it, but none of us would ever know, so we'll assume that no one is lying).
Keep them coming. I have appreciated all of the responses so far!
Original sin. My favorite reason out of thousands to make my point.
It's the woman's fault. It's always the woman's fault. Because, of course, we all know Eve force fed Adam that apple. Yup, she sat on him, pinched his nose closed and then shoved that apple right down his throat. Uh huh, it's always the woman.
Er... if memory serves, the Bible always refers to Adam being the one at fault. Not Eve.
Cydonia, You cannot sit there and tell me you've NEVER, not even once, done something the Bible says is wrong.
KK, I respect your wishes. No more discussing in this thread, people. Want to discuss more with me, PM me. If you just want to discuss with other Christians that believe like me, create another thread, or find an existing one in which this discussion would be relevant.
Well maybe, but nothing that warrants capital punishment.
PM me if you want to discuss more...
I believe in the Roman Catholic church because it fits my own personal views better than any other religion.
I was raised mormon, but I never really believed it. Even as a small child I tried to believe, but it always seemed silly and illogical to me. When I was baptized at age 8, I remember feeling so guilty because I didn't have a "testimony" like everyone else. I played along until I turned 18, and decided to finally read the book of mormon and find out for myself. Needless to say, it proved to me that my feelings were correct.
After that I felt it my mission to find the "true church." I read alot about various religions, but stayed away from the Catholic church because I believed the false information and stereotypes I had learned from the media and other religions.
I started going to a lutheran church and thought I had found a spiritual home, but something still didn't feel right. I was 2 weeks away from my son's and my baptism and taking a conversion class with the pastor, when we started talking about salvation. He told me that their church taught that only "believers" were saved. This broke my heart. I just couldn't give my life to a religion that worshipped such a heartless god. So I stopped going and felt hopeless.
Then my mom, who is a non-active mormon, told me to try going to mass. I went and I felt like I was finally home. I started reading books on Catholic beliefs and theology and it was like I had found a church that was especially fitted to the beliefs I had always held. So after a year of RCIA, I was baptized 2 years ago this easter.
I love the Catholic church because it is both logical and mystical. Through the church I feel connected to something greater than time and space. I love having Mary and the saints and angels watching over me and praying for me. I love that we are allowed to believe in evolution and that we don't have to be biblical literalists, but that we believe God works through all things. Vatican II council clarified the belief that the world is a good place and that humans are inherantly good, not wicked and deserving punishment. I also love the church's focus on humanitarian aid and social justice.
And then he came back? But we are STILL born with original sin?
In my Christian belief, no. Being a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon), I do not believe in original sin nor that we are to blame Eve for any wrongdoing. In fact, we have unbounded respect for Eve and Mary and other faithful women. We also do not believe that little children who die without baptism are going to hell but that they are saved by the grace of Christ.
BTW, congratulations on procuring your Paul McCartney tickets, Obi-Wan McCartney.
I don't know. Why would God create human's who would sin just so he would have to create his son to go down to DIE to make up for the human's? And he created the Devil, who TURNED on him? I mean, how can you turn on omnipotent GOD?
So we have free will. But, God supposedly created us so he knows everything anyway, and like most of our personality/behavior comes from our genes from our parents and our environment, usually also dictated by our parents originally. So if everyone's predestined based on where God puts us, how can he so cruel as to allow the devil to hang out just to tempt us? I mean, he KNOWS if we'll be tempted or not, he created us, why create something just so that it can go to hell and suffer and burn for all eternity?
I'm just saying is all, the whole Christian thing doesn't really pan out in my head. That's why I DON'T really believe, at least in the Christian religion. But the Jewish religion seems a little more plausible, if only because there is no hell.
Great idea for a thread, KK!
I've already posted how I became a Christian on another thread, so I've copied and pasted it here...
I grew up in a non-Christian family. My dad in particular has always been very anti-religion, especially Christianity. When I was growing up, I had no belief in God and was usually very antagonistic towards the Christians I met.
When I was about 14, a friend and I did a comedy show together at school. Quite a few of the sketches were poking fun at the Bible, and we got into loads of trouble for it.
Lived my teenage years as I wanted to. The usual things ? pride, drugs, girls, pornography.
I started at a college in the North of England when I was 18. Was kicked out after 7 weeks.
When I returned to London, I started working in a music store, and before long I was stealing money from there. When I was caught, I was fired and arrested. The police gave me an official caution and didn?t prosecute as it was my first offense (actually it was the first I was caught for).
So I found myself without a job (and no one else was keen to give me one after I was fired for theft) and loads of time on my hands, so I started writing a play?
HOW IT HAPPENED:
In keeping with my life-long distain of Christianity, I started writing a play intended to ridicule the New Testament. I had the plot, my cast of characters. Now all I needed was what every writer needs ? to do some research. And for my research I began to read (yep, you guessed it) The New Testament.
I flicked through most of it, read random portions of it and I found myself drawn in particular to John?s Gospel.
The more and more I was reading, the more my play was put in the backseat, and I just found myself getting more into what I was reading. It was as if God was addressing me directly, and for the first time the Bible was actually coming alive to me.
I spent the next few months reading the Bible and really trying to avoid the fact that it may all be true. Because if it was true, it meant that I would have to change the way I lived my life.
But I earnestly looked into it. I read the Bible (twice) and did loads of research. The prophecies of the Old Testament being perfectly fulfilled in Jesus really had a big impact on me (over 300 of them!). The fact that all the apostles (all but John) were tortured and executed for their claims that Jesus had risen from the dead. Who?d die for a lie knowing it was a lie?
There was no escaping it anymore. Jesus is Lord. He died for me and rose again from the dead.
On September 4th 1994 (when I was 19) I got down on my knees in my room. Asked God to forgive me that I?d lived my life without him. And committed my life to following him.
Over the last 7 years, I?ve experienced so many things that have confirmed my commitment to Christ.
A CHANGED LIFE: I stopped stealing. Gave up the porn (I?d been into porn since I was 4. It was a normal part of my life up until then), and had no sexual relations until I got married. God has replaced all these areas with brilliant stuff. It?s hard to talk about things like this without sounding boastful, but it?s God who?s changed me. Instead of stealing, I?m now giving. Instead of lusting, I?m now faithful. God is good.
ANSWERED PRAYER: A couple of examples. One night when one guy was being beaten on by a gang, I spoke up to help him. The gang then attacked me. As they came towards me, I sent up a quick, frightened prayer for God to protect me. They hit me, and hit me, and kicked me, and punched me, and hit me some more. I was aware that I was being hit, but I felt no pain at all. Once they?d gone, the other guy was a mess. Blood everywhere, broken jaw. Me? Not a scratch on me. I met up with this guy a couple of times after this, prayed with him and shared about Jesus.
Another example is my friend Brian?s mum. She?d been battling with cancer for years. The doctor?s sent her home to die. They said there was nothing more they could do for her. She was expected to die before Christmas (2
No offence to anyone, but i don't need God in my life to realise that stealing is wrong, and hurting other human beings is wrong. However, i am grateful if God is in my life.
No one should get offended by what anyone else says in this thread. We all have our own reasons why we believe, and this is a place for us to share them without ridicule or defending them. It is so we can acknowledge and learn why others believe what they do.
Would you care to elaborate more on your answer?
I'm a Christian. I believe in Jesus, I believe that Jesus is God's son, and that Jesus Died, was put in a tomb, and rose again.
EditOh I forgot to post this the first Time sorry)
I believe in Jesus because he has helped me and my family in tough times, He has answered my prayers for new friends, He saved my life, and I have felt him in my life. He's alway been there for me
It's great that you believe that, Angelic_308, but that doesn't answer the question of this thread. It is not about what you belive, but why you believe it.
Why do you believe in Jesus?
In my relgion, this life is a test. Sure God could have told us what we would have done, but we would never have know it. To put it another way, the teacher already knows what score you are going to get, but if he just gave you that score it wouldn't be fair. Plus, taking the test is the only way we can learn.
I have mentioned this on a previous thread also, but without much detail. I am a Christian. Why do I believe? Well, I also failed to have a Paul-like conversion. I grew up in the church. I had attended a non-denominational Pentecostal-style church until I met the woman who became my wife. At that time I started attending her United Methodist Church, where we became 'official' members last year. We waited some time to do that because we (I in particular) somewhat bristled at the idea of belonging to a particular denomination rather than thinking of myself as just a Christian. I guess I can chalk that up to growing up in a church that wasn't part of a national heirarchy.
I'm 34 now, and although I confess to not having studied other religions deeply, I have not seen nor heard anything to shake my faith. In fact, the debates by Darkside_Spirit and the like are very interesting. I enjoy them thoroughly. He makes some good points, and brings up questions that I myself have from time to time. These also fail to shake my faith ( if I don't get the answers by the time I die, I'll just ask God later ). Although science is often used as a means to debunk God, I tend to view the complexities of the universe as evidence of a grand scheme of creation, but of course that's all faith as well.
When I was little, I was aware that there was a God, but it never made much sense to me. My dad is atheist, and I think my mom is Christian, but they never tried to pursuade me to believe a certain way. So I just gathered all the information I could, and tried to make my own decision. Most of my friends are strict Christians, and they even pursuaded me to go with them to their bible camp for a week. I think that scared me away from Christianity. Certain things that were said just stuck me as wrong. For example, it was implied that you (being a Christian) should get married to another Christian. That seems like a sort of racism to me. I believe you should marry the one you love, regardless of their religion. Some of the passages from the Bible seemed totally far-fetched to me.
Don't get me wrong, I respect ALL religions, and I think that religion in general has helped the world tremendously. Maybe there is a God, maybe there isn't, but if He's there, he hasn't touched me yet. What I do believe is that people who have strong faith in God refrain from things like drinking, doing drugs, stealing, murdering, etc. more often than not because of their faith, and that's awesome. (I myself do not do ANYTHING of that sort, drinking, drugs, etc. and without God's help, another reason why I believe the way I do.) But on the flip side, religion is the cause of September 11th, and those people must have an absolutely unshakeable faith in God to have done something like that.
StarBlazer: re 9/11, those people believe in a different "God".
If you don't mind Obi-Wan McCartney, I'm going to use your post to make a few of my own points of why I believe.
I don't know. Why would God create human's who would sin just so he would have to create his son to go down to DIE to make up for the human's?
Believe it or not, God has feelings. And being the only thing in the universe before...well...the universe...he was lonely.
And he created the Devil, who TURNED on him? I mean, how can you turn on omnipotent GOD?
Pride. First, you know the devil was originally an angel, as I assume. Angels have free will, just as humans do, because, well...if you were God, why would you want a bunch of robots worshiping you? There's no emotion.
So we have free will. But, God supposedly created us so he knows everything anyway, and like most of our personality/behavior comes from our genes from our parents and our environment, usually also dictated by our parents originally. So if everyone's predestined based on where God puts us, how can he so cruel as to allow the devil to hang out just to tempt us?
See, that's just the thing. The devil has already been defeated (by Christ); he's lost, right? So God's promised we will never be tempted by anything too great for us to bear/resist. In this case, everything and anything the devil throws at us will only strengthen us in the end. It's like God's laughing at Satan, because he can never win. He's the loser already.
Of course, we still fail, give into temptation, etc, but that's just human nature. And God knows, understands, and forgives that. But still; we learn from our mistakes. And that STILL makes us stronger in the end. So it's a lose-lose situation for ol' Satan. Temptation can never gain him anything but fleeting victory. He wins a few battles this way, but God has won the war.
I mean, he KNOWS if we'll be tempted or not, he created us, why create something just so that it can go to hell and suffer and burn for all eternity?
The tempation, as I stated above, can't bring us down. We've already sinned. We're going to keep on sinning. God's forgiven that. So that's not what's sending people to hell. And even God does not send people to hell. No offense, but if a person does not choose God, in the end, they're getting exactly what they want. Eternal separation from him.
Hell is not exactly a "fiery furnace" as culture today likes to imagine. The Biblical definiton is eternal separation from God and everything good.
This seems to sum up a good bit of why I believe in an ultimate truth - one God, and Jesus Christ his son.
I also do not consider Christianity a religion, just because when Jesus came, he came to destroy organized religion, and give us a direct path to God.
I just used your post because you asked some good questions that have some good answers that most people don't usually realize. Even though it's all in the Bible...it gets passed up often, yo.
Kimball-As a physicist isnt it hard being a person of faith when its your job to essentially unravel the universe and quantify what was formerly refered to as God's creations? Do you believe that God/Allah/prime mover/Elohim started the big bang?
As a physicist isnt it hard being a person of faith when its your job to essentially unravel the universe and quantify what was formerly refered to as God's creations?
Not at all. The more I have studied physics, the more I have come to appreciate God's hand in everything. For example, I gave an example in the Astronomy and Astrophysics thread about how big the Universe really is. There is so much order in the Universe that there HAS to be something controlling it and keeping it running. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics alone says that the entropy of the Universe is increasing, yet everything seems to remain in perfect order.
I have always believed that God works through natural laws (but has a perfect understanding of them, unlike us who only have theories about them). By studying physics, I learn more of his methods.
I should also add that, strictly speaking, I am no longer a physicist. I am now a Computer Engineering and Computer Science Major. (I switched because my mother used to work in the physics department at my University and they all remembered me as a little kid. You can't live something like that down!) However, I just like that quote, and I am a former physicist, so it's not too inaccurate.
So, in your opinion, at what point in the formation of the universe did God's divine input end and science begin?
So, in your opinion, at what point in the formation of the universe did God's divine input end and science begin?
There's not really any one point. You need to make a distinction between natural laws (the rules that govern the Universe) and science (our attempts to understand those laws). God works through natural laws. He does not just put things at a point and then say, "OK, I think I'll let nature take over now." He obeys the Law of Universal Gravitation (but knows the "loopholes" that we don't). He obeys the Laws of Thermodynamics (but understands them far better than we do).
Science is a search for an understanding of the Universe. God already has that understanding.
Kimball, you make a valid point.
Science is man's best attempt to explain the universe and where he came from.