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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Senate Why is cultural appropriation a thing?

Discussion in 'Community' started by poor yorick, Aug 5, 2015.

  1. epic

    epic Ex Mod star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 4, 1999
    That white girl at the back don't look too happy tho
     
  2. Darth Punk

    Darth Punk JCC Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 25, 2013
    They didn't rate her rendition of mmmbop
     
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  3. jp-30

    jp-30 Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Dec 14, 2000
    Probably thinking "Henry's not a Maori".
     
  4. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

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    May 4, 2003
    What point are you highlighting? The specific haka we were discussing--the one shown in the 1999 Adidas ad--was the Ka Mate haka (whose origins I discussed at length about three posts back), so that's the one I referenced.
     
  5. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Probably this ham fisted mess?

    I mean, I can see what's wrong with the bolded sentence. I bet anyone else from ANZ can see what's wrong. Question is, can the Wock see what's wrong?

    EDIT: Here you go Wocky. You should have read this before commenting for the first time:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haka_(sports)
     
  6. Harpua

    Harpua Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2005
    Why don't you just tell him? lol You two are doing this hilarious dance where you each tell the other that they're missing the point, don't see what is wrong, etc. Just come out with it. Either that, or make sweet love, already.
     
  7. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    the point of this thread is learning. I'm happy to be corrected, and have never doubted that others have much greater general cultural fluency than I. Before, we weren't talking general dynamics but making in depth analysis of particular case examples, which required knowledge of those particular cases.

    If you'd reccomend a particular phrasing, though, go ahead. The thread isn't served by guesses.
     
  8. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Wocky - Yes but there are wider issues at play that your language steamrollers over.

    Ka Mate's history I shared with you before; Kapo O Pango has been referenced too.

    If you're asking if other tribes or iwi might feel Ka Mate's prominence elevates the Ngati Toa above others unfairly... well, you're not, but that's another question.

    harpua - I've said once but will say it again.

    Wocky is too wedded, too imbued with an Americentric lense that he is incapable of taking "givens" in American culture and leaving them within the parameters of American culture.

    His definition of cultural appropriation requires a dynamic to exist, a dynamic where a minority is the lesser partner with the majority. This appears to be the case when one looks as indigenous Americans, and African-Americans, as minorities. In that context, the relationship is imbalanced, exploitative, and with no recognition or respect afforded to the minority.

    What he cannot do is accept this paradigm is utterly inapplicable in New Zealand, so he continues to argue as if a certain set of conditions exist. They do not. As such his analysis is fundamentally flawed; his appreciation for nuance (Ka Mate is a haka of the Ngati Toa tribe; it is not a haka of all Maori) is limited - as you'd expect when someone has literally only just come across the NZ example - and his willingness to put aside any cynicism for first and second hand evidence is troubling.

    Instead of celebrating how a culture figured out how not to be a raging sack of poo towards minorities, he's making esoteric arguments from behind shifting goalposts in order to avoid having to admit he was wrong and never was in danger of being right.
     
  9. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

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    May 4, 2003
    1. I still don't know how you would have rephrased that sentence.

    2. It was a response to epic about the Adidas ad from 1999, which only ever showed one haka

    3. The iwi originating a haka doesn't really change the grammar of my sentence. Insofar as they share a common cultural background, the diction holds. For instance, any Maori familiar with their traditional customs would know the totemic power of female sex organs or the meaning of tongue protrusion, whereas Westerners wouldn't intuitively grasp either. I didn't invoke a specific iwi because the contrast wasn't specific to a single one.

    4. As none of us are Maori, and most of us agree they should decide what is and isn't cultural appropriation, I don't know what point you're even trying to make anymore.

    5. It would be nice to return to discussing cultural appropriation at some point. You can grind your axes with me by PM or in a half dozen other threads, if that's all you want. I'm not sure it's very interesting to other participants.
     
  10. Harpua

    Harpua Chosen One star 9

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    Mar 12, 2005
    Still not getting involved. :p
     
  11. Twelve3Feven

    Twelve3Feven Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 5, 2016
    Just my general opinion on cultural appropriation in general:

    It only really pisses me off when I get the sense that whatever is being "shared" is being used without any type of homage to where it comes from. Like kylie jenner can wear cornrows all she wants, but its weird when I see magazines say its new or edgy because it is implying that all the minorities that have used it before are not important enough to be recognized. *shrugs*
     
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  12. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Mate are you actually ****ing serious?

    Jesus *****-****ing Christ.

    "4. As none of us are Maori, and most of us agree they should decide what is and isn't cultural appropriation, I don't know what point you're even trying to make anymore.

    5. It would be nice to return to discussing cultural appropriation at some point. You can grind your axes with me by PM or in a half dozen other threads, if that's all you want. I'm not sure it's very interesting to other participants. "

    Like, I tried. A few times. You just... your alien overlords must have an enormous stiffy right now at the reaction they can provoke through adding more trolling to your code.

    You're the one trying to dictate what Maori should think. They have a voice in New Zealand. They are well represented in the legislature. If they felt appropriation occurred they would speak up and all of NZ would support it. This is not up for debate. and let me put it this way - nobody gives a flying, caped **** if you think it is up for debate. You don't matter. Appropriation by your own definition requires parameters which don't exist in NZ. Jaypes has said as much and every single mother ****ing source on the mother ****ing internet will back him up.

    You don't want to even look at how NZ's example could be used. You just want to show you googled a few things about sex totems so it looks like you're erudite.

    Tell me, when Americans start trying to impose their culture - be it being intentionally culturally ignorant, arrogantly imposing American values and experiences on others, or forcing them to open McDonalds - what does that mean? You've been doing it since 1945, so maybe you have some ideas. I mean, if appropriation is predicated on taking something that is important to others, and steamrollering over their objection what do you call forcing one paradigm of a people who don't integrate well and barely travel over the experiences of people directly connected to an issue and steamrollering their experiences and insight?

    You're a cultural imperialist and you don't even know it. Don't bring New Zealand up again. You're an ignorant, pitiful little man. I'm glad a country of 4,000,000 people prove you can treat your natives with respect and with zero tolerance as a whole for appropriation; and I'm sad a nation of over 300,000,000 contains those too arrogant to see value in their experience.

    I'm just not surprised.
     
  13. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

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    May 4, 2003
    What are you talking about? The rest of us have moved on. Let us know when you decide to join us.
     
  14. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2001
    I'll take that as an admission you're a massive tit for arguing from a position of ignorance so great the ISS is excitedly reporting on it from space, having observed it balloon out in the last two days and eventually deflate when pin pricked by basic fact.

    So... is it just a dislike of the antipodes in general or something else that means you can't look at whether Aotearoa can teach you anything?
     
  15. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    I said from the outset New Zealand is admirable in its treatment of natives. Our points of disagreement have been (and continue to be):

    1. Regardless of these points, cultural appropriation can still occur. New Zealand's progress doesn't immunize them from it because there is no such thing as immunization. We can all have moments of insensitivity, thoughtlessness, or wrongdoing. The way you ensure you treat people with respect is to keep re-evaluating yourself, not to declare that you have no further progress to even theoretically make.

    2. By the standard metrics of development (education, healthcare, wages, etc) Maori are still far from an equal footing with the rest of New Zealand. This doesn't mean they aren't admirable, but their exemplary nature also doesn't mean they have no further to go.

    What I understand least is why you are so vitriolic. You are mimicking about my grammar in a post to epic that was tangential to the main discussion. What are you hoping for any longer?
     
  16. Darth Punk

    Darth Punk JCC Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 25, 2013
    Never mind getting involved. He's now talking about grasping female sex organs, and tongue protrusions - you should prolly escape while you can
     
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  17. jp-30

    jp-30 Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Dec 14, 2000
    J-Wo, Cunning linguist.
     
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  18. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    I can't tell with this response if you've Endered the thread or Shaned it. Oh, too few *****! and *****! to be Shaned. :p
     
  19. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    I probably appropriated it, being so close to NZ which can't possibly be a positive example to held up as something we could learn from globally.

    In other news, I love Obama, Will Smith, and sleeping on floors.

    #FeelTheWock
     
  20. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    But see, if the NZ situation can't be looked at accurately through an American lens, as you stated, then I'm not sure if people could learn from it outside of that situation and apply it to their own. If we as outsiders carry our own centric-biases/lense in how we see it, then we might actually misapply those lessons.
     
  21. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2001
    You could just look at it without bias and filter..?
     
  22. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Mar 26, 2001

    Ok good luck with that. I can see becoming aware and informed on how other people experience things and the comparative analysis. But, I'm not sure you can just throw of bias and filter like its a physical object. Maybe a longer process or learner and becoming aware? But even so, I think a Kiwi would be more likely to have a better take of it.

    I agree with Wocka though. Even the most enlightened western nations all had a learning phase full of mistakes….and we're still learning. But NZ does seem to have handled it, I don't know if I could say better because I really don't know, but they've embraced the sizable Maori minority in ways we have not our indigenous peoples. But remember Jello's take? The existing size of our indigenous people does matter perhaps. Native Americans are below 2% of our total population. And as you know our size(geographical size) has also played a large role in who we are and how we see things and peoples. NZ is very small by comparison with a Maori culture larger as a % than our own.

    And compare and contrast it to Australia right next door. They did some things similar to our own termination policy of American Indians in the 40s and 50s where we forced them off reservations and put the young kids into Indian schools for assimilation.
     
  23. Harpua

    Harpua Chosen One star 9

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    Mar 12, 2005
    Hi Shane. Here to act weird again?
     
  24. Point Given

    Point Given Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    Dec 12, 2006
    Don't derail this topic
     
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  25. LostOnHoth

    LostOnHoth Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2000
    The NZ example just illustrates that not all cultural "appropriation" is bad as the culture itself is being celebrated in consultation with Maori people and elders. When a Maori person can give a hug to a white kid who performed a Haka then that is celebration and respect which is great. The fact that Maori people let non-Maori's get involved in cultural practices is also great and is a result of the way NZ has developed as a country which jp and Ender have already gone into. However the same example might not apply to other countries where certain cultural practices are reserved exclusively for people of that culture. This might also be a product of the history between cultures. Where one culture has been "conquered" and decimated and dispossessed then there is less expectation that the "oppressed" culture will be willing to share.
     
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