Why is EU hated so much in the Movies forums?

Great post, JM. Very true.

 

Kier,

I never read I, Jedi. It's such a thick book. I guess I'll give it a look.

I wish there was a book, with each chapter being in the first person about some crisis, and how the main characters feel about it and think on how the others react. That would be fun. It would start with, say, Luke (chap 1), and his last thought would be Mara (chap2), and then her last impression would be of Han (chap3), then Han would jump to Jaina (chap 4), then Jaina would think of ......well, you get my idea. Remember that episode of ST:TNG, Data's Diary? Wouldn't that be cool? It wouldn't ALL be depressing. Some of it could be really funny.

And lastly, I like Mara. She is too presumtuous, but that doesn't mean she is a bad person. She's a woman that struggles to find compassion after a lifetime of burying it. Anyone would be defensive, and she is really just being human by putting up shields after living in the environment which she grew up. I don't think everyone else deserves to walk on eggshells around her because she has a bad temper though. Her overbearing attitude sometimes bothers me.
Still, I can understand why Luke would be attracted her. She's lively, and witty, and after all that Jedi stoicness (read: Jacen and Tenel Ka=snore) it's refreshing. And she can take care of herself. She can even be left (dying, mind you) with ten Vong by herself, and be okay. One less thing for Luke to worry about. She's a good broad, and she's trying. When she gave birth to Ben and sacrificed her life for him, I think she really became a Jedi. I don't think of her as a Master yet, though, she still has that little apprentice problem......Ahem.....Jaina...cough....darkside.....cough....

 

ok JM, I believe that you may have a point.....somewhat

no look at it this way.....if luke had all the answers then the book would all be as followed:

*Problem arises*

*other tru solve problem*

*others fail*

"tada"

*turn to Luke*

*problem solved*

so you see that "over-shadowing" is what give the characters their "realism", and that's why the EU isn't predictable.......and that's why I like it.

....or I could be going crazy....

 

Hate. It is of the dark side...

 

I never read I, Jedi. It's such a thick book. I guess I'll give it a look.

While many would disagree, I consider it to be the best Star Wars Expanded Universe novel ever written. I've read it twice.

I wish there was a book, with each chapter being in the first person about some crisis, and how the main characters feel about it and think on how the others react. That would be fun. It would start with, say, Luke (chap 1), and his last thought would be Mara (chap2), and then her last impression would be of Han (chap3), then Han would jump to Jaina (chap 4), then Jaina would think of ......well, you get my idea. Remember that episode of ST:TNG, Data's Diary? Wouldn't that be cool? It wouldn't ALL be depressing. Some of it could be really funny.

Data's Diary or Data's Day- yes, I remember that. I was a lot like an old M*A*S*H episode where Radar was writing home to his mom. Yes, I think that would be a great book, because it would be a real test for an author to write 20-30 pages as each character. Doing things from Han's perspective would be pretty funny. He's all raw emotion and acting on impulse/

And lastly, I like Mara. She is too presumtuous, but that doesn't mean she is a bad person. She's a woman that struggles to find compassion after a lifetime of burying it.

Which is actually when I started to like her. She spent 15 or so years after meeting Luke just kinda floating in limbo, because IMHO, too many authors were afraid to tackle her.

Anyone would be defensive, and she is really just being human by putting up shields after living in the environment which she grew up. I don't think everyone else deserves to walk on eggshells around her because she has a bad temper though. Her overbearing attitude sometimes bothers me.
Still, I can understand why Luke would be attracted her. She's lively, and witty, and after all that Jedi stoicness (read: Jacen and Tenel Ka=snore) it's refreshing. And she can take care of herself. She can even be left (dying, mind you) with ten Vong by herself, and be okay. One less thing for Luke to worry about. She's a good broad, and she's trying. When she gave birth to Ben and sacrificed her life for him, I think she really became a Jedi. I don't think of her as a Master yet, though, she still has that little apprentice problem......Ahem.....Jaina...cough....darkside.....cough....

Bwahahaa. Cute. Still, Mara is one of the last people I would worry about going over to the Dark Side. It would be tempting her 'C'mon Mara, do evil, it will be fun! C'mon, do evil.' and she'd just sniff and puff herself up like, 'Been there, done that, got the lightsaber.' Yeah, I like Mara, Just don't adore her like some people.

 

to tell you the truth, i dont freaking care! so they don't like the EU, bi effing deal. they should just shut the fart up and let us enjoy the expanded universe!

 

It'd funny because we are like bizzaro world of most things. In most cases books come before movies and it's book readers who whine and complain about movies and act superior.

 

I have noticed this EU dislike as well. I don't know, maybe they just have different tastes. The books I've read feel different than the movies, even if I enjoy the books as much as the movies. Maybe these other fans are mad they don't feel movish. One question I would ask, do the EU authors do a poor job of making EU movish, or, do you think the EU is movish, or do you think EU isn't movish, and are glad it is different?

 

Personally, I think that they are jealous! I mean, come on, they have only 4 (6 in all) movies to hash over and over again. We have those same movies PLUS dozens of books with many different storylines. I think that that gives us something they will never have......a larger SW universe. And they are pea green with envy!!

 

Well, they can buy the books, too, can't they? Why don't they do so then and have what we have?

 

Let me start by telling you a little about how I became a Star Wars fan. I saw the films when I was little (I was born in 1982), and remembered playing with some action figures. Then in 1992 I bought Heir To The Empire and I loved it. Then I rewatched all the films over and over and over and read all the EU that came out over the next 5 years. Personally, I guess I became a fan during the EU days.

I liked the Zahn books, I liked the X-wing series and some of the individual novels (Courtship of Princess Leia), but I couldn't stand some of the things that authors like Anderson and Hambly did. I think they made the Jedi too strong (I mean, come on, moving Star Destroyers?), and I hated the idea of other Jedi surviving the purge, but all in all I like the EU. I even read all the old books, the Han Solo, Lando Calrissian series and Splinter of the Mind's Eye.

Then Zahn wrote Specter of the Past and Visions of the Future, which I felt were a fitting end to the EU saga (treaty with the Empire, Mara and Luke tie the knot). Then TPM came out and NJO came out. I felt that NJO was taking Star Wars in a different direction that Lucas was taking the saga with TPM. Lucas was going for a more mythic saga, NJO was more Science Fiction (ie: Vong=Borg). I didn't like this, but I gave NJO 4 novels, then I quit reading EU. That was 2 years ago.

I thought I'd try out Rogue Planet, and that soured me even more against EU. I felt that the introduction of the Vong before and after the movie saga took the story of Anakin's fall and redemption out of the spotlight.

Now on the boards I have become a movie purist. Not because I dislike the EU so much, but because in my mind I cannot reconcile the two. I my mind they are like alternate universes. If you like them, it's fine, becuase I like them too. But to me it's not cannon. I still like all those old books, but it's not the same any more. It's not George's Universe.

When someone comes into the movies forums and tries to tell me that "all EU is cannon", I just don't feel like listening. Please try to understand my feelings.

Remember, just because I'm a movie purist doesn't mean that I dont know anything about the Star Wars Universe. I used to know the whole Guide to the Star Wars Universe cover to cover. I just don't want to hear about Jaster Mereel in an Ep. II discussion.

 

Hmm, wonder how anyone could throw in Jaster Mereel to an Ep II discussion? It'd hardly be relevant would it?

Jedi Ben

 

It's an example. Let's say I'm having a non-spoiler discussion on Boba Fett and I say "I wonder what Boba Fett will be like in AOTC?", and some EU person walks in and says "Well, Boba Fett used to be a Journeyman Protector named Jaster Mereel from the planet Concord Dawn...if you read Tales of the Bounty Hunters", I don't want that.

This is just an example, it never happened, but you can see why we in the movies forum don't use EU when speculating.

By the way, as you can see from my prior post, I haven't followed EU for 2 years. How (if at all) have they explained away that Boba Fett stuff?

 

Steve Sansweet said it probably was mere gossip. But around here we like to think he assumed that identity for a while. It still seems to fit, even with what we know of EPII so far. Dan Wallace says that nothing should be thrown away or completely dismissed before EPIII. There might be ways to make it all fit together.

 

My answer'd be, it hasn't happened as far as I know. In all likelihood, Lucas' line that Fett has spread disinformation will be used.

Looking at your example, I know you were just using it as an example, but it'd be poor discussion skill to do that: The stories of Fett seem to go 10 years backwards and 15 forwards. That leaves plenty of time. The time was never given specifically either, so what's to say as part of a commission, who had taken formidable precautions against Fett, who gains his reputation years before, he creates said person? Hey, it's possible. Point is, if your example is representative of the EU posters then:

1. They may fall into my 'you haven't the whole story' category of fans. Perhaps a second category is needed: the 'what really happened' bunch.

2. It's presumptious and shows a lack of skill, at which point you're left thinking: It'd be so easy to scrag this kid but can I be bothered?

Jedi Ben

 

Kettch, at least you're more forthright in your reasons, but let me say...

I felt that NJO was taking Star Wars in a different direction that Lucas was taking the saga with TPM. Lucas was going for a more mythic saga, NJO was more Science Fiction (ie: Vong=Borg).

I haven't read the NJO yet, but I have read most SW novels, and I've only found a small handful to be true "Science-Fiction". Most fall into the categories of space opera and Fantasy.

Remember that just because something is similiar to other Science-Fiction, like the Borg in Star Trek, it doesn't make similiar stuff in the EU to be Science-Fiction. It's a style of storytelling, not what aliens/ships/creatures/technology is used. Because if it was, the movies would be Science-Fiction too, since they have tractor beams, which are from Star Trek.

I didn't like this, but I gave NJO 4 novels, then I quit reading EU. That was 2 years ago.

I thought I'd try out Rogue Planet, and that soured me even more against EU. I felt that the introduction of the Vong before and after the movie saga took the story of Anakin's fall and redemption out of the spotlight.

As far as I know, the subplot of the Far Outsiders ( Vong ) in RP was not even close to being a main part of the story. As it is, most people didn't like that novel. While it expanded on the relationship of Anakin and Obi-Wan, and introduced us to a young Tarkin and Raith Sienar, overall it is considered poor by many. And that's really too bad, because aside from the Jedi Apprentice series, it really is the first novel to kick off the PT era stories.

I suggest you give Darth Maul - Shadow Hunter, Cloak of Deception and The Approaching Storm a try. The former two have gotten far better responses, and TAS is a prequel to Attack of the Clones.

But to me it's not cannon.

Canon you mean. I see what you're saying, but Lucasfilm does say it's all canon, and they and Lucas have the final word. But you don't have to know that to believe what you think in your personal view.

By the way, as you can see from my prior post, I haven't followed EU for 2 years. How (if at all) have they explained away that Boba Fett stuff?

I think we'll be seeing in the updated Essential Guide to Characters this next spring.

 

Here's what Steve Sansweet has to say about canon: I'm really confused about canon.

I quote from the article " When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves - and only the films." They go on to say that while some may consider the books and such canon, and I'm fine with that, they are not on the same level of canon as the movies.

And as for the whole Boba Fett thing, I don't like the idea of trying to make things fit. Why don't we just admit that it was a stupid thing to even try to give Fett some backstory without asking George.

 

I think part of the problem is that people use the word "canon" where they should use the word "continuity".

 

I can understand how the movies can be seen as more canon than the EU. (Afterall they're almost straight from Lucas himself word for word), but according to his company and by association GL himself the Eu is canon also.

the creators of the EU (novelists, publishers, game developers, etc.) work very hard to fit their work into the overall continuity of George's story with the info given. Nevertheless with George making his own changes and revelations these glitches will appear. It's then that the creators of the EU has to adjust their story to better fit George's new expanded one. Through some clever explanation or whatever (that's some of the fun for the EU: to see how they get around those breaks in continuity-they can be very clever at times.)

As for Boba Fett's origins...George's word is law, but now the EU has to explain the whole Jaster Mereel story as false or not wholly true, and that's like i said alot of the fun.


That's a reason why some fans don't like the EU, I suppose. They want a clear picture of continuity set in concrete in their mind, while the Eu is a growing ever adapting thing. They see the discrepencies in the continuity as flaws, while EU fans see it as an oppurtunity for further adventures to find the new continuity set in concrete for a day or month or two.

 

Did you even read the link I posted? Did you read my quote? I think that should explain to why some movie purists feel merited saying that only the films are totally true.

 

I'm not trying to say that us movie purists are right and EU fans are wrong, I'm just trying to explain to you why we feel the way we do.

 

They go on to say that while some may consider the books and such canon, and I'm fine with that, they are not on the same level of canon as the movies.

No doubt my friend. But saying it's all canon ( whether that's true canon, quasi-canon or whatnot ) is good for those of us that like to see it as all one huge universe that is continually expanding with new stories. With the EU, and not just the movies, it's like opening a 600-page bible compared to a small 6-part set of kiddie books. There's good and bad chapters of that bible, but nevertheless, it is vast and extensive and provides many hours, days, months or years of enjoyment. ( I'm proof of that, having been a "Completist" since 1994. )

And as for the whole Boba Fett thing, I don't like the idea of trying to make things fit. Why don't we just admit that it was a stupid thing to even try to give Fett some backstory without asking George.

I still don't know why they did it. It's obvious that Fett was a PT era character, and yet they decided to expand on him a little too much, IMHO. But, we can't go back, and while not every Fett story is good, there are a small handful of great ones, such as "Twin Engines of Destruction", "The Last One Standing", and IMO ( and I'll get flamed ), the Bounty Hunter Wars Trilogy.

I think part of the problem is that people use the word "canon" where they should use the word "continuity".

Definetly.

It's then that the creators of the EU has to adjust their story to better fit George's new expanded one. Through some clever explanation or whatever (that's some of the fun for the EU: to see how they get around those breaks in continuity-they can be very clever at times.)

Yes! I-poodoo, you are right. One of my favorite things to spend time on is creating continuity fixes, and watching the masters of the art perform their own tricks within articles and stories, the primary architects being Stackpole, Luceno and Wallace.

 

Most movie "fans" that I know don't Hate EU (I don't), we just don't have this false idea that GL has something to do with EU. GL doesn't have much (if anything) to do with EU and the movies come first - ie - the Sith History has been changed, Boba Fetts history has been changed, the Colours a Corialian Jedi wear have been changed.