Why is everyone so down on my man, Jacen?

Here here, ShinagamiWing! Beautifully said I am in total agreement.

Jae Angel

 

Props to NarundiJedi; we know what's up, girl!

 

First off, I would like to say that seeing this thread back up on the top page really brings back some memories.

ShinagamiWing, How does Jacen?s search for balance and enlightenment keep him from gaining it? I am well aware of the teachings of Taoism, but you must still know your goal before you can know you have achieved it. Also, he has not been actively searching for that balance since Balance Point. (By the way, I really don?t pretend to know what religion you have. What you said just sounded so much like Taoism, that I just assumed that that was the belief you where referring to)

?Meditation isn't everything about finding enlightenment; you must also act with dignity and the spirit of the righteous, desireless path you walk.?

How has Jacen not done this? He does want to gain an understanding of the subtleties of what is right and wrong for himself, and for the Jedi as a whole. Having no desire is to have no purpose. Once that desire becomes covetous, then, and only then, has it become too strong. (Just for future reference, ?desireless? is not a word)

I would also like to say that to compare any meditation style here on earth with Jedi meditation is completely pointless. Jedi meditation has very little to do with any earthly meditation other than the extreme basics. When meditating here on earth, one can experience a state of deep relaxation and, in some cases, gain a better understanding of one?s self. With Jedi meditation, the Jedi will immerse himself into the flow of the Force and, in doing so, gain a better understanding of himself and the Force. I think it is safe to say the earthly meditation and Jedi meditation are not the same thing.

 

I agree that Jacen wants to take a spiritual path in order to understand the Force and determine the Jedi's role in the galaxy. However, he wants to do this at the expense of forsaking two important duties that a Jedi undertakes.

One: The Jedi have been charged with protecting everyone in the galaxy. That means taking up arms against the Yuuzhan Vong.

Two: A Jedi knows when it is time to take up arms. Now is the time to do that. Jacen doesn't want to do this until he comes up with answers to his questions that will satisfy him. Problem: that takes time, and now is not the time to do this.

If any of you have read Yaddle's Tale from the Star Wars Tales comics, then you might understand when I say that perhaps being a prisoner of the Yuuzhan Vong might be a good thing for him. He will be able to spend some time pondering his questions and coming up with the answers. The time required to do this will be reduced if Vergere were to reveal her Jedi identity to Jacen and provide him with some of these answers.

I was, however, at the point were if I were Anakin is SBS, I would have sensed Jacen's hesitation before the mission and tell him, "Jacen, your 'quest' for insight may be the right path for you, but with everything collapsing around us now is not the time to pursue it. Now you have a choice. You can choose to put this quest on hold and come with us on this mission. If you do this, you're going to have to do everything I say without hesitation. You can't do this, then take one of the X-wing and go to Dagobah for all I care. I won't risk bringing you along and having your self-doubts endanger the mission or prevent you from doing what needs to be done."

 

You both make great points, and they both have different angles on the same subject, and I think you both see that they aren't complete antithesises of each other. In fact, you both seem to see that this big spiritual quest of Jacen's is NOT a bad thing.

See, what I mean is; this is good. But he's abdicating other responibilities over it. Yeah, he's still done some good things, but he could be doing better if he wasn't preoccupied with his quest. Props to him for wanting to find the better balance, and yet... he seems to miss the point, IMHO. To understand this "Force" thing, which as JediJSolo so intellegently pointed out I have no frikkin' way to comprehend (though I try), Jacen will need to use it. Not just submit himself to it entirely, but to also see how he can use it, how it manifests itself in the world around him and within him.

Well, maybe it's not that way with the Force, like is with bhraman (almost the same as Taoism, freind, you were close!). I guess Jacen is just trying to make himself a part of that greater state of being. However, I continue to think that that isn't the right way - he's not a part of the force right now for a reason. He can wait until he dies for that, but first he must spend his life doing the right thing for the light side of the force, dig? Which I just think means helping people.

Well, everyone's entitled to their own dumb opinion. It's not like we have any control over what happens next, anyway!

 

The Jedi have been charged with protecting everyone in the galaxy. That means taking up arms against the Yuuzhan Vong.

JediAlly, A Jedi doesn?t necessarily have to take up arms against the Vong to protect the people in the Galaxy. There will always be a need for people to transport refugees, and guard them against attack. In some cases, a Jedi can save many more lives by doing this than directly attacking the enemy.

A Jedi knows when it is time to take up arms. Now is the time to do that. Jacen doesn't want to do this until he comes up with answers to his questions that will satisfy him.

When has Jacen not used force when it was necessary? When has he said, ?I refuse to defend the people I must defend, because it goes against my morals?? He has always done what must be done, and has never brushed that responsibility aside.

I was, however, at the point were if I were Anakin is SBS, I would have sensed Jacen's hesitation before the mission and tell him, "Jacen, your 'quest' for insight may be the right path for you, but with everything collapsing around us now is not the time to pursue it. Now you have a choice. You can choose to put this quest on hold and come with us on this mission. If you do this, you're going to have to do everything I say without hesitation. You can't do this, then take one of the X-wing and go to Dagobah for all I care. I won't risk bringing you along and having your self-doubts endanger the mission or prevent you from doing what needs to be done."

I fail to see what purpose that statement would have served. If Jacen had decided that Anakin?s demands where too high, then the mission would have failed completely. Let?s just set aside the fact that Jacen saved the lives of many of the Jedi on that mission. Without that, what do we have? Oh wait, Jacen was the one who completed the mission. The mission would have failed without Jacen, and having Anakin be intolerant would not have helped in the least.

Had Jacen decided to proceed with the mission despite his brother?s intolerance, the rift between him and his brother would have become much greater, and would have influenced the Battle Meld and possibly caused it to be less effective, and so cause more Jedi to die.

Anakin saying that would have destroyed the mission. Had Jacen not gone, the mission would have failed. Had the rift between Jacen and Anakin become greater, more Jedi would have died and the chances of any of them coming back alive would have drastically decreased.

ShinagamiWing, I agree with you on most of the things that you said, but there is just one little thing that I want express.
A Jedi will always serve the Force. The Force will never serve a true Jedi.
That statement might be a little extreme, but I believe it whole heatedly.

 

Cool.

 

ShinagamiWing (& others who believe Jacen fails to carry out responsibility) -

But [Jacen's] abdicating other responibilities over it. Yeah, he's still done some good things, but he could be doing better if he wasn't preoccupied with his quest.

In Balance Point, Jacen finally came to the conclusion that the "darkness must be fought." And throughout the NJO, although Jacen may have shied away from missions (because he felt, appropriately so, he wasn't suitable for the job), he has always accepted it and never shied away from completing the task at hand. Don't forget it was Luke who thrusted Jacen into those missions in the Dark Tide duology. I'm not blaming Luke because I believe it was the right thing to do in Jacen's case but Jacen has never wanted to "be in the way", sort of speak.

Here are just a few examples of Jacen accepting and carrying out the responsibility associated with a mission:

1. Jacen is the first to say that he and his siblings will fight to defend Dubrillion in the YV's first offensive in VP
2. Jacen fights admirably with his siblings to defend Dubrillion
3. In VP, it is Jacen who devises the plan to save the prisoners on the ice planet of Helska IV.
4. After Mara's battle with Yomin Carr, Jacen is the first fight and defeat many YV warriors on the ice planet Helska IV in the process of saving Danni
5. As opposed to Anakin's utter perfection against the YV, Jacen has had a more complete experience against the YV by tasting defeat on Belkadan trying to act on his supposed vision.
6. Although Anakin fights brilliantly to save Mara from the YV on Dantooine, at the end, it is noted that he is outnumbered. It is Jacen & Luke who return to Dantooine to save Anakin & Mara
7. Along with Luke & Anakin, Jacen is there recklessly slaughtering thousands of YV "slaves" on Dantooine in defense of the refugee camp.
8. In Ruin, although Jacen may not have wanted to, once Jacen goes on the mission to Garqi, he committs himself fully to the mission. Whereas Corran & Ganner are itching to engage the YV (it is noted as such in Ruin), Jacen is focused on the mission at hand - to retrieve some slaves for study. When Corran & Ganner engage YV warriors, Jacen "puts down" some slaves for capture.
9. Jacen saves Corran on this mission when a skip comes flying overhead.
10. If you re-read Ganner's fight in which he was humbled, you will find that at the critical juncture, it is Jacen who comes to Ganner's defense else Ganner would be dead.
11. On Ithor, Jacen is there fighting to protect that defenseless planet
12. In Balance Point, although Jacen foresakes the Force, Jacen never stops trying to save refugees and help them. When Han's refugee camp is force to flee, it is Jacen, along with Jaina, who returns to save a few remaining Ryn refugees
13. Because SELCORE was not sending any supplies for the refugees on Duro, it is Jacen who goes Vice-Director on the Duro space-city to negotiate for the supplies.
14. Although Jacen's vision may have rendered him hesitant to act, Jacen did ultimately save his mother, embarrassing the Warmaster in the process.
15. Jacen is first to sense Viqi Shesh's hidden agenda and disingenuous intentions in Balance Point
16. Don't forget that Balance Point specifically noted that Jacen is able to defeat many YV warriors without the Force just to reach his mother
17. Once Jacen opens up to the Force fully after a long hiatus, it is noted that Jacen is able to sense a rippling of anticipation and he would know when and where the Warmaster [and other YV warriors in the room] would attack - similar to how Anakin senses the YV with his lambent
18. In Conquest, Jacen is able to search out Booster Terrik and the Errant Venture - Conquest specifically notes that no one but Jacen could have accomplished this - to help save Anakin and the remaining

 

Wow, I came back to this thread intending to help support and back up Jacen... but after reading -Vergere-'s post, there really doesn't seem to be much more left to say! Excellent work, -Vergere-, and thanks for listing all of that and reminding us of the many great things he has accomplished in the NJO. It's easy to point out Jacen's shortcomings (and of course he has them, as, though a Jedi he may be, he is still only human after all) time and time again, but his strong points and achievements are noted far less often. Jacen really deserves more credit than he usually gets.

 

-Vergere-, if you'd actually read what I'd been sayingm you'd know that I don't think Jacen is a weenie, just slightly misled. Unfortunately, you're so trigger happy to defend the boy that you'd rather run off half-cocked and make a million different points, some of which I agree on, and tell me they're the reason I'm wrong. I don't much respect that.

 

Well, it looks like -Vergere- has covered all of the major point. I am suitably humbled by his list, and I think that there really isn?t much left to say.

Edit: ShinagamiWinig, I don?t think it was his intention to accuse you of anything. I think he just saw you as on the other team and decided that directing his pots at you would be the suitable thing to do. It was a simple misunderstanding. I don?t think that it was anything to get upset about.

 

I didn't mean to take your statement out of context, ShinagamiWing. If I did, I apologize. I simply meant to point out that Jacen is not abdicating responsibilites. If that has nothing to do what you've been saying, just disregard my "list" as I will refrain from directing any posts specifically towards you.

 

Cool by me - by the by, impressive list. Okay, I think that's enough debating for now... my work here is finished.

See you in the forums!