Why is it so important for those of you who are religious to convert others?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Wormie2, Jan 16, 2002.

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  1. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
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    Eh, first off, the problem you have with this choice between God and death can hardly be compared to being raped and being put to death.

    Sure it can. If you sincerely believe, after great soul-searching, that the biblical God is not what he claims - a loving creator - then to follow him would be exactly like being spiritually raped.

    I am sadly not too shocked by your comments regarding consent and rape. This is where the dualism of Christianity and Islam becomes such a dangerous, unloving thing. If the dualism of your faith forces you to align sex had under threat of death with a consensual act of love (or at least recreation), then that reaffirms the widely held view that Christianity is nothing more than a smokescreen for hate. Ah, well. (shrug)

    How about if the rapist said, "Screw me, or I'm killing your kids" and you let him have sex with you. Is that consent?
  2. Palpazzar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    Treecave, what exactly is it that you want? In Christianity there is the choice to obey or not. The consequence go with those decisions. Do you want there to be no consequences for our actions?
  3. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    "Following the God of the Bible is a noble act. It does more better for the world than it does worse. Please don't give me examples of people using the Bible to do wrong, because they are not truly follwonig God, but rather folloing themselves."



    "When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be punished; for the slave is his money."
    ..........Exodus 21:20
    "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
    ..........Numbers 31:17 (Moses)
    "Happy shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!"
    ..........Psalms 137:9
    "Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give [them] unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun."
    ..........2 Samuel 12:11

    "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
    And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."
    ..........1 Corinthians 14:34,35


    Noble? In what sense?



  4. Palpazzar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    To answer you honestly Cydonia, it is noble in that it is God. I know you won't like that answer, but that's the way it is. He is in charge and calls the shots.

    Of course if a person doesn't believe in God, then they shouldn't worry about it. But if a person does believe in God - as in a totally righteous supreme being - then God created all, owns all, and can do with it as he pleases.
  5. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    Does that make it morally right though? As a human you find that to be an acceptable course of action, or it's an acceptable course of action "just because".

    Anyway, those verses don't fit in with my idea of "noble", but words do have different meanings sometimes, i suppose.
  6. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    Palpazzar, I don't want anything. I'm just demonstrating that Christianity isn't the only take on how things work. Honestly, no other religion insists everyone who disagrees with it is going to hell! And when I was raised Christian, no one I knew believed that either. Christianity is riddled with the disease of such beliefs.

    Please don't suggest that non-Christians don't understand responsibility and consequences for actions. That's one of the most ignorant beliefs modern Christians hold. One of the reasons I left Christianity was that I felt it encouraged people NOT to take responsibility for the right things. I know atheists who have a better developed code of ethics/morals than 95% of the Christians I've known.
  7. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    "It is noble in that it is God."

    Here's a question: Could God ever do anything that you would consider evil?
  8. Darth_SnowDog Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2001
    star 4
    JM_201: You can't compare rape to Christianity? I beg to differ. The people who were raped by the Crusaders beg to differ. The people whose cultures have been annihilated, their women raped, their homes plundered... beg to differ.

    This kind of a God who would allow his people to rape in his name is nothing more than a fabrication of the mind used for centuries to justify rape... rape of people, rape of knowledge, rape of cultures.

    What the hell kind of God is this that your lovely, lofty Christians would ever have any history of bloodshed whatsoever?

    I also find it incredibly ludicrous that any time a Christian does something right.. he's automatically "one of us"... but of course if a Christian does something selfish, evil, horrid... he's automatically "one of them... not one of us."

    That is the biggest escapist crap ever sold to the public at large. I'm not claiming a religious leader, or a religion has to be absolutely perfect... none of them are, because they all, Christianity included, are man-made fabrications so far from the truth of god, if there is such a thing, that they are designed only to serve human purposes. This crap about "God making man in his image..." is just as arbitrary and stupid a backpedaling explanation as me saying, "Well, I know I killed my neighbor and raped his wife, but I'm excused because God has already had someone die for my sins."

    Let me see... how many times have I seen Christians whose family members were raped just cave in and say, "Well, you know... the guy who did it was a Christian, so I forgive him." Hell no! They would love to see the guy fry, at least 99 times out of 100. Christians are no loftier in their ideals than Buddhists or Satanists.

    The irony is that I've seen more Christians force their views upon others and often threaten them, either deliberately or suggestively, with fear of persecution than I have seen any Satanist do so. Christian institutions throughout history have sponsored more bloodshed than the worst Satanic cults could dream of on their most glorious day of sacrifice.

    Forcing your views upon another individual, another culture, another group of believers... whether by the threat of persecution or by being incredibly, cleverly suggestive... (e.g. "Oh, I don't shove it down peoples throats... but my God is right... and they can do what they want, they're just going to hell if they don't listen... that's all")... you might as well be delivering an ultimatum, as cydonia and TreeCave have pointed out.

    if this is your God... a wrathful, egotistical, hellfire spitting, paradoxical curmudgeon who would bring a child into this world only for selfish desires... and then cast it into the oven when it isn't loved unconditionally under the threat of punishment... you can worship whomever you please... but if you dared bring this God to my doorstep, I'd tell him and his "do-gooder" proselytizing minions to go to hell.

    Palpazzar, I guess you don't realize that there isn't any black or white in the universe... man has abused Christianity and other religious institutions since their inception for the sake of justifying hierarchies that need not exist. I don't expect you to understand it, without having explored how other cultures have survived since the beginning of time. But then conveniently, your elders have raped you of the ability to gain this knowledge by saying it's wrong for you to question... wrong for you to learn about other beliefs.

    Nothing, no law, no "thou shalt not" from even God himself has actually stopped people from doing what bad they're going to do... not even fundamentalist Christians.

    Do you want there to be no consequences for our actions?

    It's so very ironic that you say this... because the "diplomatic immunity" of God is the banner of imaginary righteousness that Christians hide under every time they do something wrong... instead of admitting that they did, and accepting responsibility for their actions... either God dictated they kill someone, or th
  9. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    Gandhi's over-rated.


    You have attacked us Christians well, Darth_SnowDog, but have not provided me anything to debate.


    *shakes the dust off his feet and moves on*
  10. Palpazzar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    Treecave, I don't mean anything by what I said. You simply confuse me in what you say. It seems like you argue that because one of two options is 'bad' that it is no choice at all. Philosophically, I cannot understand that or agree with it. History has plenty of examples of people with two options - one good and one bad. Those are choices even if they don't all work for good.

    Snowdog, can you please prove to me there is no black or white in the universe?

    "don't expect you to understand it, without having explored how other cultures have survived since the beginning of time"
    How do you know what I have learned? How do you know I haven't? Take your own advice and open your mind to the possibilty that a rational person can in fact believe in God.

    "But then conveniently, your elders have raped you of the ability to gain this knowledge by saying it's wrong for you to question... wrong for you to learn about other beliefs"
    Again you show your ingonrance of Christianity. I do not know if it is by choice or not, but there is no problem in me questioning anything I want. That was a teaching of a corrupted church a thousand years ago. Your preconceptions of me are wrong. And I am perfectly capable of making a choice for myself.
  11. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
  12. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    Palpazzar, it's not a good or bad choice. It's a choice between good or complete annhilation of your soul. If that is a choice, then when a kidnapper says, "Get me $250k by 7pm, or I shoot your baby that I have here", he's offering you a choice. That's not a choice - it's coercion, duress. There is a difference.

    Now, just so you know, *I* think the Christians who interpret salvation in this way are dead wrong. There are many WAYS to come by "salvation" - all the Bible is saying is that they all ultimately go through Christ whether the saved person realizes that or not. Jesus may be the only way, but he's not the only method.

    However, and I don't mean to insult anyone here, but Christianity has been twisted to suit people who are so terrified or responsibility that they want to have no choices at all in life. So a religion that should have offered real freedom has instead excused people spiritually couch-potatoing their way through life, figuring they'll get into heaven on a "I didn't do it" clause instead of "Look what I accomplished, and look how I cleaned up my mistakes". And don't tell me you don't know people like this in your own church or wherever you associate with other Christians - I did, when I was practically raised in the church.

    The way Christianity is taught all too often nowadays not only excuses people for not having the courage to take positive action, it in fact strips them of the faculties they need to make such choices - after all, it was the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil that caused all our human suffering, so knowledge must be bad. Without knowledge, you can't make choices, so you're off the hook.

    This is not a condemnation of all Christians. This is a sad commentary on how the religion has been twisted to suit the majority of humans who are motivated by nothing but fear in their whole lives.
  13. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    Knowledge is not bad, to me. It's sad that discovering things for yourself is the one thing that we should never have done.

    Mark Twain---

    "The so-called Christian nations are the most enlightened and progressive...but in spite of their religion, not because of it. The Church has opposed every innovation and discovery from the day of Galileo down to our own time, when the use of anesthetic in childbirth was regarded as a sin because it avoided the biblical curse pronounced against Eve. And every step in astronomy and geology ever taken has been opposed by bigotry and superstition. The Greeks surpassed us in artistic culture and in architecture five hundred years before Christian religion was born."

  14. darthmomm Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2001
    star 4
    It's true...it's true!!!!!








    I'm BLIND....I'm BLIND!!!












    :D :D

    Sorry, dathsarcasm came out, and I could not help it.

    :D
  15. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    Yeah, what's the deal with that "curse on Eve" that resulted in painful childbirth? I don't think female horses find birthing a pleasant sensation - are they sinners, too?

    I swear, the Christianity *I* was taught was a valid religion. These beliefs such as "Non-Christians unfortunately go to hell, we're so sorry, but that's how it is" are reprehensible, and some people who believe them are being led severely astray, and quite possibly away from any salvation they might have found.

    There will probably be a "What the--??" section in hell for people who thought they were saved by the ministries of hatemongers like Jerry Falwell. I would imagine God would give those people another chance, but they don't believe that, so maybe he won't. I really don't know.
  16. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    "There will probably be a "What the--??" section in hell for people who thought they were saved by the ministries of hatemongers like Jerry Falwell."


    Now that's something we agree on. There's a verse that says some will stand before God someday and say they did this and this and this in His name, and He will say, "Depart from me, you workers of iniquity. I never knew you." I think there are many people who think they can mosey their way through life because they've been enrolled and baptized into a Christian church, that, when they stand before God, they'll be cast aside.
  17. Bithysith Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 2000
    star 5
    Prove that the universe is not in black and white? That's a pretty heavy word you're throwing around. Can you prove that it isn't? I suggest you read about at least the fundamentals of Quantum science.

    And I'm just curious... if all these people that twist the church's message to their own ends are not "true Christians"... perhaps you all can answer me this. What is it about Christianity that makes it so susceptible to corruption? What inherant element is present that allows it to be so easily used for evil means?

    I don't see anyone using Buddhism to justify genocide, etc.
  18. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    But commiting genocide and being a buddhist are just as bad.
  19. Bithysith Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 2000
    star 5
    Very true, but that isn't my point. :p There is an element to Christianity that makes it open to corruption and abuse... an aspect that some other faiths apparently lack.
    Can any among us pin-point what that is?
  20. Darth_SnowDog Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2001
    star 4
    The Christian world may think that Gandhi is over-rated. They thought the circumference of the earth was over-rated, that evolution is over-rated, that racial and cultural equality is over-rated... meanwhile, even Indus Valley civilizations had grown well out of their cultural diapers about 7000 years ago, while the fundamentalist Christians are still trying to assert that the entire earth began sometime 1000 years after civilization, and recorded history, sprung up near the Ganges.

    I'm not sure if anyone knows anymore what it was that Christ taught, or attempted to teach... it's been mired in too much Biblical and dogmatic crap.

    On the other hand... people still believe in Gandhi's original teachings... and don't just exhibit this through preaching his word, but living every breath of it. His actions have more largely influenced the movement of the western world in the last 50 years than the Church has done for the betterment of the entire world in the last 2000. More precisely, the Church has been historically the single largest force in the suppression of knowledge and wisdom... if the Dark Ages never happened, I can't begin to imagine how much further we would be as a people, as a world.

    TreeCave: Absolutely right on the couch-potatoing. The problem I have with fundamentalist Christianity is mostly that it is an escapist route from responsibility and accountability. While Hindus and Zen Buddhists have, for thousands of years, understood that action is the path to enlightenment... the fundamentalist Christians sit around saying to themselves, "God, I'm a good person... look at everything I haven't done!"

    Bithy: One word: Dominion. This idiotic, egocentric concept that man is the be-all, end-all of the universe was spawned by men of ignorance at a time when no one in the Western world had yet figured out where the sun was in relation to the Earth. Yet about 600 years before Christ, aka the World's First Amway Salesman (at least according to the fundies), was born, the astronomers Aryabhata and Galileo had proven formulae calculating with blistering precision, among other things:

    The angle of the earth's curvature.
    The approximate rotation cycle of the earth.
    The circumference of the earth.

    Their calculations stun scientists even today, who are armed with the most advanced supercomputers capable of calculating pi to virtually an infinite number of decimal places.

    The fundamentalists can believe what they want... I never said there wasn't a God. They assume I do, just because I don't agree in their blind-eyed guesstimate at what precisely god is... based solely on the words of one scripture (whose parables have been assimilated from all the cultures that Christians seem to ironically contend were heathen or pagan.. strange paradox, if you ask me).

    The issue here at hand is why religious zealots are so insistent on forcing their views down the throats of others through, as cydonia and TreeCave have pointed out, coercion and duress.

    You can choose to pay your taxes, or go to jail. My guess is, most of you don't really consider taxes optional, under those conditions.

    Likewise, my hatred for fundamentalist religious views, which seems to center around Christianity for reasons I've alreadyy explained (the idiotically self-serving premise of "dominion")... is mostly to do with the fact that the zealots and fundamentalists have no clue of the difference between fiction and truth... no understanding of the difference between love and hatred.

    You don't present your views to me out of love... you present them out of some sort of hatred... hatred of what I stand for... I'm okay as long as I believe what you believe. Otherwise, I am bound for hell. Well, I'd rather be in hell with people who respect diversity and actually did something with their lives other than preach... than be in heaven with people who couch-potatoed their way through life until the very end when they all ask, through last rites, forgiveness for their lifelong apathy.

    If
  21. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    I don't know. The Bible God endorsed genocide, rape, killing children etc. so naturally certain believers thought along the same lines, i suppose. I'm curious too. (that was to bithysith, now i get to read snowdog)
  22. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    Yes, JM, on that we do agree. Some aren't even making an honest effort to make sure what they've been taught is correct. Others are more honestly led astray without realizing it, and for those I would imagine there's hope. I mean, I don't assume everyone who learned Christianity from Falwell is going to hell - but I think those who learned HATE from him and call that Christianity are in trouble.

    BithySith, that's a great question. I don't claim to know the answer, but something occurred to me, so I'll muse aloud, in hopes it leads to something useful.

    I think the dualism of Christianity makes it a good vehicle for fear, in the hands of a manipulator - and we all know what fear leads to, right? ;) Now, I don't think Jesus was very dualistic - for example, his "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" offers a lot more possibilities for behavior models than the dualistic 10 Commandments. But Christianity often focuses on that dualistic stuff - don't do this, do do that, etc, - to the point that people forget WHY the 10 Commandments are actually just common sense. You shouldn't steal because you'd hate it if someone did that to you. Fair enough.

    But when a manipulator gets a hold of Christianity, here's what happens. Let me explain with examples. When I was a kid, growing up in an American Baptist church, I learned about a loving creator who can't protect us from every hurt we encounter in this life, but can promise us a love that makes it all worthwhile. Nothing scary there - no hellfire and brimstone, no threats, just "life is going to hurt, but God can make it better, and in the end, it'll all have been worth it." That's actually not too far from Buddhism - suffering sucks, but you learn to let it go eventually, and then you know joy. The two religions really only differ on their opinions of how this all takes place, and when.

    But I know a woman raised in a fundie Christian church who still has nightmares about the apocalypse stories she was told in Sunday School 20+ years ago. I have a left-handed cousin who attended a Christian private school where she was forced to learn to write with her right hand because left-handedness is of Satan. That same cousin also had nightmares for many years about the apocalypse stories she was told in Sunday school.

    I know a lot of people who have so MUCH fear of the apocalypse that they don't remember being taught that God loves them - I'm not even sure they were taught this! In these misteachings, God becomes an abusive father figure they must obsessively try to please so he won't fly off in a rage and rip them limb from limb because his martini wasn't dry enough. These churches keep their followers obedient out of fear, but they don't actually bring them to any salvation.

    Now, that's not real Christianity, just to be clear.

    By the way, Islam and Christianity share common Persian roots, and they are both dualistic and easily corrupted into "holy war" type religions. I don't think I need to go into examples of corrupt Islam at work in the world today.
  23. Bithysith Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 2000
    star 5
    Thank you for the responses. :)

    I have a left-handed cousin who attended a Christian private school where she was forced to learn to write with her right hand because left-handedness is of Satan.

    The same thing happened to an aunt of mine... :mad: What I find interesting is, left-handedness occurs in the genetic pool as often as homosexuality. How cruel and ironic that the latter demographic is still forced to "learn to write with the 'right' hand".
  24. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    ". What is it about Christianity that makes it so susceptible to corruption? What inherant element is present that allows it to be so easily used for evil means?"


    Did not Satan tempt Adam and Eve, the things God loved most? What better way to draw people away from salvation than by showing God's followers to be fools that only want what's best for them?
  25. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    BithySith, that's a frighteningly good point.

    Nice post, Snowdog - only problem is, you make me want to type up a bunch of lines from "Devil's Advocate" just to raise some hair. LOL! Seriously, though, that movie kind of sums up my objections to the modern Christian take on what God is, what Satan is, and where man fits in (or fails to).

    Ah, heck.... I'm going to type this up and get it out of my system, because it so captures the big question: Why would an omniscient, loving God bother to make creatures who can fail to choose him? As a test to see how much he's really loved? Or is he perhaps not t the paradoxical entity presented by Christianity? Is God perhaps ALSO learning and evolving, and suffering just as we are?

    Here are the lines, edited:

    MILTON (Satan): "Who are you carrying all those bricks for? God? Let me give you a little inside information about God. He's a prankster. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift - and then what does he do? For his own amusement, his own private cosmic gag reel - he sets the rules in opposition! Look, but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste, but don't swallow. And while you're jumping from one foot to the other, he's laughing. He's a sadist. He's an absentee landlord. Worship that? Never!"

    KEVIN: "Better to reign in heaven than to serve in hell? Is that it?"

    MILTON: "Why not? I'm here on the ground with my nose in it since the whole thing began. I've nurtured every sensation man has been inspired to have. I cared about what he wanted, and I never judged him. Why? Because I never rejected him! In spite of all his imperfections, I'm a fan of man... I'm a humanist. Maybe the last humanist."


    Ah. I feel better now.
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