Why is it so important for those of you who are religious to convert others?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Wormie2, Jan 16, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Coolguy4522 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 4
    You misunderstood my point. By the strict meaning of the word, athiesm isn't a religion. However, because athiesm is in direct competition for the hearts and minds of people, just like a religion, it acts like one. I belive that the means of spreading athiesm are much subtle than that of going round knocking on doors. Through the media and education, people are taught that there is no God.

    Why is it so important for those of you who are athiest to convert others?

    Don't tell me that athiests don't convert anyone, because they do, even if you don't.
  2. Ender Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 1998
    star 6
    I belive that the means of spreading athiesm are much subtle than that of going round knocking on doors. Through the media and education, people are taught that there is no God.

    Really? Could you give me examples of these situations occuring? I haven't heard of any schools teaching there is no god? Science isn't about teaching whether there is or isn't a god. That's philosophy.

    Edit: Oh, forgot to add. Politicians use the media and go to schools as well. Once again this must mean the two different political parties are religions?


    Why is it so important for those of you who are athiest to convert others?

    Well, a lot of atheists are former Christians who have been brought up with a particular mindset.

    I wasn't raised as a Christian. But I do have a particular dislike for fundy Christians as they were the ones who always called me an immoral scumbag and stupid for not believing in a god. Sorry if I get a bit aggressive against fundies who insult me. After all, we atheists are human contrary to what some believe and take disparaging comments to heart.
  3. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    From what i've observed, athiests don't care what religious people think, but rather they confirm that everyone should be entitled to believe the way they choose. Who's more likely to ask you, as you're walking down the street, "Excuse me, have you thought about where you are going to spend the rest of eternity? Here's a little comic book to get you saved." An atheist? I don't think so.

    Personally, i got alot of fundamentalist baggage i never asked for, and coming here and debating the points that scarred me, and talking to different types of christians like doright and binary sunset, is very good for me. I'm not an atheist, and i also have no desire whatsoever to sway someone towards my way of thinking because it just won't happen. But there's nothing wrong with healthy debate on these "big questions". It's good for the mind, it doesn't mean anyone is necessarily trying to convert anyone.

    BTW, ender you're an immoral scumbag.
  4. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    And i'm a filthy disgusting thread killer.
  5. Ender Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 1998
    star 6
    BTW, ender you're an immoral scumbag.

    *Sniff*

    Memories, sweetened through the ages just like wine!!
  6. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    Yes, memories of the way you were. Although they have passed, they can still bring you comfort and hope.
  7. Ender Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 1998
    star 6
    And i'm a filthy disgusting thread killer.

    This will one day become part of your memories. Lucky guy! I'm just an immoral scumbag.
  8. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    Tenorjedi, good point, and I say that as one who loves Mac, but only brings it up when PC users are making fun of me. I never proseletyze about Macs. But it's worth noting that at least I, like virtually all Mac users, started out on PCs, and still have to use PCs occasionally. At least I have seen it from both sides. That's why a Christian like C.S. Lewis - who was raised Christian, became agnostic, and later found Christianity in his OWN way - are so much more compelling than proseletyzers.

    Regarding atheists attacking Christians... Some do, and it's wrong. But while two wrongs don't make a right, but I do think the Church "started it". I mean, even Christians can admit the Church has a bloody history of un-Christlike treatment of Christians on many occasions. While most Christians are appalled by those acts and would never support them, there are still fundamentalists out there verbally abusing anyone who disagrees with them. We still have Jerry Falwell blaming even groups that CONTAIN Christians (homosexuals, feminists... who else did the jackass name?) for 9-11. So while those atheists who attack need to grow up, they are counter-attacking a religion established as much on the blood of non-believers as on believers.

    Those of you who think atheism is a religion: I respect your opinion, but I don't believe it's at all logical, and here are my counters to it:

    --Atheists lack a set of laws they more or less uniformly adhere to. Jews, Christians, Muslims, Wiccans, etc. have laws or ethics they are expected to live by. Atheists need have nothing more in common than the choice not to have FAITH in the existence of God. Beyond that, it differs: some are positive God doesn't exist, some consider man the highest power in the universe, and others like Ender merely are withholding judgment until they see what constitutes scientific proof, if such is ever forthcoming. Someone like Ender would probably have 75% as much to debate about with one of the other types of atheists as he does with Christians.

    --Atheists do not have a set of rituals, holy scriptures, or ceremonies. Every religion I know of has all of those.

    --Atheists do not, for the most part, organize into churches or covens. Yes, there are clubs of atheists, but if that makes them a religion, then the existence of AA makes recovering alcoholism a religion. Actually, that would be more logical than calling atheism a religion.

    --Most religious folk lump us agnostics in with atheists (Einstein said he was agnostic in the above quotes, and you guys seem to lump him in.) Agnostics simply feel mankind hasn't the capacity to know a whole lot about who God is or how God works, and our time/energy would be better spent on living good lives than on wondering, speculating, or claiming to know stuff like how the afterlife works or such things as whether God is a male or female, or both, or something else altogether.

    --It is far easier to justify calling a political belief (or any other belief) a religion than a state of refraining from belief, such as atheism. Example: The Democratic or Republican party has rules based on scripture (party platform) that its members generally support and agree to and vote in favor of. It has caucuses (comparable to the church gathering) where members vote on things, get all over-excited, and make sermons (speeches).

    If you guys are defining the word religion some other way, please clarify, because I'm not seeing that in your posts.

    Regarding proseletyzing: every commercial is proseletyzing. Part of "survival of the fittest" is manipulating others into taking care of your needs, whether your needs are a profit margin, a core group of believers, or getting someone to wash your laundry. It's never a good thing in my opinion because it encourages a lack of character: those who can manipulate need not achieve on their own.

    My father, in a sermon he gave, told the following story. A woman was so concerned about her family getting into heaven that she very a
  9. Obi-Zahn Kenobi Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 1999
    star 7
    Darth_SnowDog.

    You're wrong.

    Admittedly every major religon says that it is the only way to heaven.

    But please, you seem to hate that but that is merely being intolerant of my beleifs, please stop.

    I did not say support the churches, I said support Christianity, as in witnessing. Spreading it, not enlarging the churches.

    The true church is merely believers, but the modern churches are not so. I don't trust them as far as I can throw them. Again, I didn't say fund the large churches, I said spread christianity.

    You can go out and talk to your friends, get them interested and if they want our crutch, then they will accept it. That is what I mean. Not giving hundreds of dollars to multimillion dollar churches.

    You assume too much.
  10. Ender Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 1998
    star 6
    Don't forget our political beliefs effect our worldview as well.

    Nice post, TreeCave.
  11. Darth_SnowDog Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2001
    star 4
    Obi-Zahn:

    First, you're not included in the group of people or institutions I was referring to or being critical of. You want to share Christian ideas for the sake of discussion or whatever with your friends, I have no problem with that.

    My statements therefore do not concern you. They are, however, intended to point out that one need not have a marketing machine behind it if there is serious substance in the philosophy of that religion. People should be able to find it intriguing by its substance and not its flash.

    Lastly, and I don't mean this in a condescending manner... You're quite articulate for your age, and I give you much credit for that. I can't fault you for your lack of experience, but I won't simply deny that I have 15 more years experience in the world arena than you. This decade and a half of experience witnessing all kinds of ignorance, fear, hatred and cultlike behavior on the part of fundamentalists of various proselytizing faiths gives me a distinct advantage in formulating observations and opinions about the religious world.

    I too believe that one's faith is in one's heart, nowhere else. So, I ask you, what's so different about you and I?

    I might also add that not every religion believes it is exclusively the right way to heaven... Not all religions believe in a heaven. But I didn't expect you to know that. Therefore, that kind of supports my point... that experience of another 15 years might lead you to some of the same observations from which my point of view originates. Of course, if you were a fundamentalist, you might never gain anything in those fifteen years by simply keeping blinders on... but you've demonstrated sufficiently that you're more open minded than that.

    I believe that all religions are, in one form or another, the path to the truth... from different sides of the mountain. They all appear different when they've been filtered through hundreds, or thousands of years, and many translations, many hands, many institutions... but, as I've mentioned in other threads..

    God, or whatever you want to call it, in his omnipotence, had a message... a message that was observed and documented by all the peoples of the world at the time... That message was elaborated upon, and sometimes even modified (as in the case of the four canonical Gospels and the Pentateuch).. and much of the original meaning has been lost or obscured for a variety of reasons that I could write volumes about.

    However, it might interest you to note that the original message of God to the Hebrews, who eventually divided into Muslims, Christians and Jews, can be found simply in the Tetragrammaton, "YHWH." Translated literally, it means, "I am." Almost a millenium before Christ's birth, the Hindu scriptures had a Sanskrit passage describing God from the third person in the exact same sense: "TAT TVAM ASI." This is translated as, "That thou art."

    Coincidence? Or evidence of my point... that many of the world's religions emanate from one epicenter... God, YHWH, Jehovah, Allah, Brahman, Truth... whatever you name it.. it is one singular source, interpreted from many perspectives and therefore confused as being many different sources because the existing descriptions vary greatly from culture to culture.

    What difference does it make? Does it make it less important just because my God and your God are the same thing? Does it make you feel less important because you can't say with selfishness that your people are the "chosen people"? I think this is the only reason that people oppose this interpretation of the religions... because for some believers, being special is a selfish desire to which they cling so tightly... as if all their faith will unravel the minute they discover they aren't the only ones God gives a damn about.

    That might offend some believers and... well... too bad if it does. They'll have to re-examine their scriptures, their faith's history... to even attempt to compete against this revelation that all thes
  12. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    I'm all about the dogmatic scenery. ;)

    I live next to TBN:Trinity Broadcasting Network, it looks like a miniature las vegas casino sitting next to the freeway. I was told recently to go there because apparently they have motion simulator rides about Paul spreading his letters around or something. I don't think that's appropriate, but that's just me.
  13. GreedoCMZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 4
    Cydonia, if you live next to TBN then I drive past your place everyday.



    But I am threatened by the concept of a god who punishes innocent people for their lack of belief in him.

    Not all Christians believe in a god like that. But the ones that do are probably more vocal.
  14. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    You in O.C.? I don't live next door, but from here to the freeway to there is about 2 minutes.
  15. Ender Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 1998
    star 6
    Not all Christians believe in a god like that. But the ones that do are probably more vocal.

    True. I don't really have a problem with religious people who are like that. Most of my friends are like that.
  16. IellaWessiriNRI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2001
    star 4
    Well... in terms of "converting" others, the way I see it is this: If you bring up the subject of salvation with someone, and offer to share with them, and they decline, then you don't push. If I share the gospel with my friends and they reject it, I'm not going to continuously try and shove it down their throats, and certainly none of this "immoral scumbag" stuff ;) . When I try and share, and the message is rejected, the only thing I can humanly do is to sit down and pray for that person, long and hard. Ultimately, it's not up to me to change that person's heart, it's God's work. However, in a way I will never stop witnessing to them, because I try through my words and actions to reflect the character of Christ Jesus, hoping to show the world that there is something different (in a good way) about the "Christians." This certainly isn't to say I'm perfect, but I hope that the way I live my life will be attractive to my friends and the people around me, and that they will want to know what it is that makes me different - that's when I share with them again. But like I said, ultimately, it's not about shoving it down their throats, it's about being a witness through my words and actions, as well as devoted prayer.
  17. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    Man, did I have typos in my last post. I meant CS Lewis was an atheist for a while, not an agnostic. And I meant Christians had done unChristlike things to NON-Christians in their history (I put Christians, which is probably true, too, but hardly the point.)

    It's true what you guys are saying... the obnoxious ones are always loudest. True of any group. Makes every group look stupid and/or malignant.

    On a lighter note, I've created a little script for all of us here, based on some alleged radical Christians I've heard preaching on the UCLA campus before the cops nabbed 'em, so we can go grab people on the street and spread the good word. After all, if atheism is a religion, then surely that which binds all of us together here at TF.N must also qualify.

    "Friend! When is the last time you saw the Star Wars Trilogy? Did you really see it, or did you just watch it with your eyes? Have you felt the truth in Lucas' word? Well, yes, it may be distilled from the truth in many other things, but you will never see the truth delivered with such great special effects, nor such compelling storylines! And droids! You must purge yourself of the Hutt within, and embrace your luminosity!"


    Er, I could go on, but as evidenced by my earlier, totally typo-ridden post, I probably shouldn't. :D
  18. GreedoCMZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 4
  19. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    That's the thing, other religions leave out droids entirely, when droids are the whole point.
  20. GreedoCMZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 4
    These aren't the droids you're looking for.
  21. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    Darn Greedo i could probably shout your name right now and you would probably hear me! lol.
  22. Ender Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 1998
    star 6
    I've always thought Yoda is Buddha like. Of course George is starting to look like Buddha.
  23. GreedoCMZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 4
    If it weren't for that noisy South Coast Plaza parking lot.
  24. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    This is true, Greedo. This is true.
  25. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    I try to do the same.


    My dabting could be confused with prosetelyzing, but when someone brings up a point about Christianity, I automatically want to talk about it.


    Excuse me if it comes off as shoving my views down your throat. ;) :)
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.