Why is it so important for those of you who are religious to convert others?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Wormie2, Jan 16, 2002.

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  1. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    He gave us the choice to follow Him, or to choose our own path. But He warned that His path was life. If you don't follow life, you follow death. There's no grey area there.

    Sounds like conditional love to me. "Son, I'll always be there to help, support and love you, you know, as long as you become a doctor like I told you to. If you become a lawyer, I'll have to push you off a cliff."

    Regarding the question of people converting from Christianity - well, once you've had your fill of Christianity, you don't WANT another religion. There are billions of former Christians who now embrace no organized religion. But yeah, I guess most of us do not turn to some other religion.

    That's the point. He didn't deserve death.

    So, in order for him to die for our sins, we had to sin and kill him? God wanted us to sin by killing Jesus? Aha - entrapment!

    (For all your other questions on God, the Universe and Everything, please view the last twenty minutes of "Devil's Advocate". Thanks for tuning in!)
  2. StarFire Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2001
    star 4
    So two things:

    1) No offense, but the picture I'm getting is that of a very bored God who creates people, places them in situations of temptation, and gets them out of trouble just when they're about to buy it so they can keep on getting into trouble.

    2) I forgot number two [face_blush]
  3. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    "I can't force you to love me and be in heaven. If you don't love me, you go to hell. Again, i can't force you to love me and be in heaven."

    "So, if i don't love you in the way the bible says?"

    "Then you go to hell."

    "But i thought you couldn't force me to love you."

    "I can't. Either love me or go to hell."

    "You know what, i think i love you."

    "I hope you mean that, and you aren't just saying it."

    "Hey, Sarge, whatever you say. Just don't send me to hell."

    "Ok. Now you get all the goodies life has to offer."
  4. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    "Sounds like conditional love to me. "Son, I'll always be there to help, support and love you, you know, as long as you become a doctor like I told you to. If you become a lawyer, I'll have to push you off a cliff."


    More like, "Son, I love you very much. Follow the path I'm on, it'll take you safely to the end. Follow the other path, it will lead you off a cliff." ;)


    "So, in order for him to die for our sins, we had to sin and kill him? God wanted us to sin by killing Jesus? Aha - entrapment!"


    No. :p God used man's mistakes (i.e., killing Jesus) to complete a purpose He had. And that purpose was to bring us back to Him.


    "So two things:

    1) No offense, but the picture I'm getting is that of a very bored God who creates people, places them in situations of temptation, and gets them out of trouble just when they're about to buy it so they can keep on getting into trouble."



    No, God doesn't place us in situations of temptation. He gave us the choice to follow Him(life) or follow death.


    "2) I forgot number two [face_blush]"


    LOL ;)


    EDIT: How hard is it to understand that if you don't choose life, you choose death? God IS life. If you choose anything other than God, you choose death. Simple as that. It's not about choosing God so you can get the goodies. It's about choosing life over death.


  5. StarFire Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2001
    star 4
    No, God doesn't place us in situations of temptation. He gave us the choice to follow Him(life) or follow death.

    God creates earth . . . God creates flying birdsies, big mammals, slithery snakeses, spiderses, etc. With meses so far?
    Then, in the midst of this paradise, he puts a tree. A tree of knowledge of good and evil. He forbids Adam and Eve to eat of it.
    He's basically giving us free will (obviously), tempting us by giving us this tree, which is all-to-easy to get to, and telling us not to eat of it. Like, "Don't look now, but here's a tree that you CANNOT TOUCH! You've got a lot of stuff here . . . you can pet the tigers . . . but NO eating from that TREE!"

    This is why I think this whole Tree part is part-parable. It makes much more sense.
  6. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    Indeed. Which is why I personally think that it might not be an actual tree. Same with the tree of life. I thnk they symbolize the choice to follow God, and the choice to gain divinity through the knowledge of good and evil. Well, Adam and Eve got their wish. At first they had the knowledge of Good, and once they 'ate from the tree', they gained the knowledge of evil as well.
  7. StarFire Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2001
    star 4
    But if God didn't want them to eat from the tree (i.e., to discover evil), then why tempt them with it? Why create it in the first place?

    Of the several possible answers ("He DID want them to", "It's all just a game"), am I right in inevitably expecting to hear that God's ways are unfathomable to mere mortals, and the Bible is perfect and His Word, so I should just accept it and live with it?
    Just clearing this up from the start :p
  8. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    "But if God didn't want them to eat from the tree (i.e., to discover evil), then why tempt them with it? Why create it in the first place?"

    Because without the symbolic tree, our love for him would be counterfeit. That's the only reason, the only way he could be loved without forcing it on us was by creating the symbolic tree and talking snake. Those were the options, that's what we gots.

  9. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    Well, in creating good, you automatically create the possibility for evil, because without evil, good wouldn't be "good".
  10. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    Not if you're God! God doesn't have to worry about yin and yang.
  11. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    God is love.
    Love is blind.
    Ray Charles is God.

    :p
  12. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    "because without evil, good wouldn't be "good".

    I agree with that, but from God's standpoint it didn't have to be that way. So, which did he create first, evil or good? And, am i right in thinking the reason he created evil was so he could be loved of our own free will?
  13. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    Alright, here's the deal. Without the sickness, we wouldn't need the medicine. Without hate, we wouldn't need love. Without death, we wouldn't need life. Without evil, we wouldn't need Good. Without Satan, we wouldn't need God.


    That's the best answer I can come up with. ;)


    EDIT: Cydonia, yes, I guess I agree with that. Look at it this way: Would you want God to force you to follow His ways? I know I wouldn't. I wouldn't want to be a mindless robot.


    "I agree with that, but from God's standpoint it didn't have to be that way."


    Again, I wouldn't want to have been a mindless robot. If God had shown us one thing and one thing only, we wouldn't really have any freedom. That'd be like your parent showing you one religion, and forcing you to stay inside your house all your life only giving you information about that one religion. There's a whole world around you with many different views. Would you love your parent for keeping you in one mindset all your life, without letting you choose for yourself?
  14. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    It's just strange to me that essentially we're saying the reason we have murder, taliban, rape, cruelty etc. is becaue God wanted to be loved.
  15. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    God didn't create these things. Man did. God created man with the ability to do more than be little parrots that say the words "I love you" right back to God. That would be God loving Himself, through humans. God wanted us to love Him out of our own hearts. That isn't too much to ask.


    And all the things you mentioned Cydonia, if we followed God they wouldn't be in the world. They came from our rebellion to God.
  16. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    Oh man! I thought i had won the argument. Guess not. ;)

    Rebellion was created by man, ok. Man was created by God, ok. Man can only do what god allowed us to do by giving us our human nature, ok.

    Then Ray Charles is God. I see now.
  17. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    Our human nature came from Adam's sin. God created us in His image. Sinless and perfect. But He gave us the choice to continue with Him, or to go our own way.


    Again, I ask. Would you love your parents if they trapped you inside your house all your life and never let you choose for yourself? I don't think that you would, nor do I think that you should.
  18. LordIsurus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 3
    Oh, Darth SnowDog,I didn't mean that thats how scientists use science to disprove religion or anything like that. But, one might use physical explanations to reason why something odd occured. I'm one of those dorks who believe that a scientist will come close to proving a God does or can exist first. Life is funny that way.


    Isurus
  19. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    Of course not.

    Now, is the choice really to go your own way as fleetwood mac would put it? Seems doubtful, and here's why: What's at the end of our own way's rainbow ? Hell, eternal separation from God, whatever you want to call it, yes? Who put that in the contract? God. Our own way is his way with a different name.
  20. StarFire Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2001
    star 4
    Again, I ask. Would you love your parents if they trapped you inside your house all your life and never let you choose for yourself? I don't think that you would, nor do I think that you should.

    But why, then, did God create us in the first place?
  21. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    Cydonia, our own way is not God's way. God's way is life. What, then, can our way be other than death?


    StarFire, He created us so that He could have someone to love, and so that someone could love Him back. Out of their own free will.
  22. StarFire Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2001
    star 4
    And as a reward for loving him, we get to go to heaven?
  23. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    We have many options in life, and God created all of them. Even if you call it death as not his way, it really is his way. Why?

    Death created by God. Our choice to follow death created by God. Our damnation is therefore god's way. Otherwise, the option just wouldn't exist. Nothing exists that god didn't create, even if that means he planted the seeds that enabled us to create. For without those seeds, the way that isn't God's wouldn't exist. Who made the seeds? God.
  24. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    Alright, I'm done here tonight. ;) No matter what I say, you will just find an argument. Not that that's a bad thing, seeing as how this is a discussion forum. :p


    'Night all. :)


    EDIT: One more thing: StarFire, the "reward" for following Him is life. God provides life, everything else is death. Follow God's way, you follow Life, because God IS life. That's what you get for following Life. More life. :)
  25. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    Night. No matter what i say, you just find an argument for it ;)

    God: Hello little Man.
    Some Dude: I love you!
    G: Wait, wait. We haven't got to that part yet.
    SD: Oh, ok.
    G: I am giving you free will. There are two paths you can choose, one is my way, the other is death. My way is heaven, the other way isn't.
    SD: Ok, now where does the free will thing start?
    G: It's your own way if you don't love me.
    SD: Yeah, but when do i come up with my own way? Do i have to go to school to learn how to create it?
    G: No, i already created it for you. Listen again, i created two choices for you. Either one will be your own way.
    SD: Ouch, my brain exploded.
    G:So, do you love me or not?
    SD: I already said i did.
    G: No, you only love me if you accept Christ.
    SD: Oh, can't we just skip the middle man?
    G:Nope, not only do you have to love me, but you have to love my son, Jesus christ.
    SD: Oh, fine then. Jesus was cool. Can we have ice cream now?
    G:We're getting there. Do you accept him as your saviour?
    SD: What did i do this time?
    G: Well, i made you and since it didn't work out, you have to accept my son's sacrafice, otherwise i'll reject you.
    SD: What did i do again?
    G: Nothing! You're just human, that's enough, believe me. You're a sinner.
    SD: What did i do though?
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