Why is Lucas so pesimistic about Episode 3's box office potentital?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by seasider, Apr 4, 2003.

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  1. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    What he has to show for it: one improved effect.

    Post proof or retract. You don't know what he used the money for.

    "- George talks big about how much he emphasizes the story, but that's all it is, just talk."

    Post proof or retract.


    The proof is in the divided fanbase, and in the many reviews that say this.

    And I'm sure you've noticed that there are many more people who love the story and think the effects are part of the story.

    Post proof or retract.

    "Yet these same people didn't have a problem with ANH or ESB."

    Post proof or retract.


    You just throw this phrase around just to make me type a little more, when you very well know that the very reason they're fans of the OT in the first place is because they loved ANH and ESB. Pathetic arguing tactic.

    His work is great without your god, Gary Kurtz, squandering his money.

    Not as great as his films Kurtz prouced, according to Rotten Tomatoes, IMDB and Cinemascores.

    "- WETA had no other involvment with ILM other than PJ's visit to their pre-viz department. Gollum is WETA's accomplishment alone."

    Post proof or retract.


    In the credits to the film The Two Towers. ILM is not mentioned as a contributor. Besides that, there's absolutely nothing out there to support the thought that they did help. You're the one who made the assertation that they did, so post proof or retract.

    [/i]"If ILM had helped, they'd be credited for it in the films credits, just as Digital Domain was credited in that of FOTR for their help. Post proof or retract that ILM has any involvment at all, other than PJ's pre-viz visit."

    Post proof or retract that they didn't.[/i]

    In the credits to the film The Two Towers. ILM is not mentioned as a contributor. Besides that, there's absolutely nothing out there to support the thought that they did help. You're the one who made the assertation that they did, so post proof or retract.

    But not when they deserved it for TPM and AOTC.

    They deserved it for Jurassic Park and T2. TPM and AOTC did absolutely nothing new, just overload us with slightly more advanced versions of what we've seen before.

    "They deserve no special credit for Jar Jar,"

    Why not?


    Because he accomplished nothing new.

    Then Weta deserves NO CREDIT for Gollum. NONE. ZERO. But they got it, and even were praised for being groundbreaking when they weren't.

    Gollum was recieved, and you can check out the 150+ reviews that say so, as the first digital character to deliver a convincing, moving performance.

    "- Post proof or retract that IMDB is controlled by the LOTR fanboys."

    *sigh* I can't.


    Then retract it and never use it for argumentative purposes again.

    And claiming that Gary Kurtz is the real genius behind the OT, and that he has a burgeoning career.

    Never claimed that he was the "genius" behind the OT. Also never said his career was good after The Dark Crystal. Post proof or retract.

    "- Gary Kurtz has flat-out said that the rest of his career after The Dark Crystal sucked, and I never said otherwise either."

    Yes you have.


    Post proof or retract.

    "What are the generally considered George's best films? American Grafitti and A New Hope."

    Post proof or retract.


    IMDB, Rotten Tomatoes, Cinemascores, The AFI Top 100 Films of All Time list.

    Big deal. Ben Burtt worked on all the SW films.

    What does that have to do with anything?

    "Which are generally considered the best Star Wars films? A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back."

    Post proof or retract.


    IMDB, Rotten Tomatoes, Cinemascores.

    Kurtz gets his ass fired for his incompetence...

    Wrong.

    KURTZ: ...we both were frustrated and decided we just didn't want to work together anymore for the time being.

    IGNFF: So it was a mutual ...

    KURTZ: It was pretty much a mutual thing, yeah.

    "Proof that Kurtz made story his focus? Oh, I don't know, the fact"

    What fact?


    The one I just proved, that he
  2. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    Can I just say Shelley and Durwood, its good to see you posting competent, intelligent and accurate stuff. And for not lowering yourself to the level of Darth_Insidious etc.

    Keep it up, though I fear you're heading for a dead end with these guys. They'll ignorantly continue their argument even when (and you already have to an extent) proven them wrong.
  3. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    Even more pathetic is that you really do believe what you just posted.
  4. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    Maybe everyone should cool it down in here before a mod has to do it for them...
  5. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    I really don't appreciate being told I'm on a low level by someone I've never even spoken to.
  6. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    Was that in reference to Burtola?
  7. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
  8. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    Ah. :p I thought you might have been talking about my suggestion. Anywho, I can see how that would be annoying. Still, SOMEONE needs to end the bickering at some point.


    I only say this because I know how mods deal with this type of situation. ;)


    Perhaps if you discussed it with Burtola in a PM? You could get a lot more punches in that way... ;) :p
  9. SkiHoth Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    JKBurtola,

    Just what has Shelley posted that is competent, intelligent or accurate? And how do you know? Or is "post proof or retract" a competent argument? I'm still waiting for proof from anybody that the PT was better accepted by the general public than LOTR.

    And how have I been proven wrong?
  10. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    Or I could not waste any more time on him.

    Either way, right? :)
  11. SkiHoth Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    Still waiting...

    Or are you having a difficult time finding any type of proof that the general public feels the PT is equal or superior to LOTR?

    Or an equally difficult time finding proof of the LOTR gestapo controlling imdb?

    Just one of the two would be a start...
  12. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    I see opinion being thrown around here left and right, with maybe the exception of the IMDB stuff, although Shelley apparently can dismiss that with a "no it's not".

    Then again, that is really the extent of the debate here, isn't it?

    "You are!"

    "No, YOU are!"

    "I know you are, but what am I?"

    Evidently there are 2 camps, as there usually is, and a lot of "post proof or retract".

    Brilliant analysis all around.
  13. SkiHoth Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    Garth Maul,

    I couldn't agree more.

    I'm just trying to see what proof there is that the general public preferred the PT over LOTR.

    Box office has been mentioned and summarily dismissed.

    Critic's reviews has been mentioned and summarily dismissed.

    And imdb.com has been mentioned and summarily dismissed.

    All three are "proof" that LOTR is preferred to the PT, yet all three were dismissed for no apparent reason, other than "that doesn't mean a thing." Well, what does I ask? If there is any proof to dispute these three, I would gladly like to see it. Unless Shelley has some secret "general public" poll by Gallup of everyone worldwide who has seen the PT and LOTR, then the "proof" listed above is all we have.
  14. Clonetrooper1000 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2003
    star 3
    Darth_Insidious: "The proof is in the divided fanbase, and in the many reviews that say this."

    How the heck can a divided fan base prove what George Lucas is saying is honest?

    Anyway, the only 'proof' you could obtain is through opinions and if you are to consider this division then A MAJORITY are on the positive side of that argument regarding the film and George's positive emphasis on the story. Therefore there is only proof that most agree with George and not your point.

    DI: "when you very well know that the very reason they're fans of the OT in the first place is because they loved ANH and ESB"

    2 films does not = trilogy. They loved the OT because we obviously love all the Star Wars films. There is only a small drop-off in fans of the PT from the OT. Opinion polls and sales/merchandising indicate a majority of Star Wars fans like and accept the PT.

    DI: "Not as great as his films Kurtz prouced, according to Rotten Tomatoes, IMDB and Cinemascores."

    How do you know it was Kurtz's influence that caused a higher success for Episode IV and V. For all you know it could have been Richard Marquand on VI. More likely if you are talking about the creative side.

    Kurtz's artistic contribution to both Episodes IV and V is so minimal your argument collapses there. Kurtz had absolutely no authoritative creative input, only a few ideas and opinions that did not require to be accepted.

    DI: "ILM is not mentioned as a contributor. Besides that, there's absolutely nothing out there to support the thought that they did help."

    Apart from the fact they openly admit in interviews ILM was extremely important in making it happen. The technology utilised on TTT is a culmination of what ILM has being working at for years. FACT, do some research! ;)

    DI: "TPM and AOTC did absolutely nothing new, just overload us with slightly more advanced versions of what we've seen before."

    You are completely unbelievable, DI. Why don't you just take a look at the effects on offer in both films and stop attacking them for the simple reason that they are films you personally want to criticise. Why because they are SW Prequels.

    Many people do not understand why The Matrix beat TPM. It developed one technical device whose use in other films up to this point has been absolutely mininal. The work done on creating wholly realised digital environments and characters for TPM and AOTC has already proved to be far more important. And don't give me that "But the academy thought it was better" cobblers. They also thought Annie Hall was better/more important than SW. Was it? Did it prove to be the more important development in film-making years later?

    Stop listening to others. Sit down with an unbiased mind and just take a look.

    DI: "Because he accomplished nothing new."

    He was actually very succesful at proving to be the first completely interacting CG character of this kind. I agree his characterisation was a failure but that does not mean the effects were. Gollum would not have happened without Jar Jar, whether you like it or not. Probably not. Thats right you never give one positive point about the Prequels.

    DI: "IMDB, Rotten Tomatoes, Cinemascores, The AFI Top 100 Films of All Time list"

    IMDB is one popularity based ratings system. Rotten Tomatoes is a collection of AMERICAN press reviews, most of which no absolutely nothing about films anyway. Also, the acceptance rates in other countries was much higher. This is a film body's critical list - you will find if you look at more critical listings, ESB will appear higher on more occasions nowadays.

    DI: "He wanted to have Han die to add a dose of reality and to make the finale have more of an emotional resonance"

    Correct, so did Harrison. In fact it was supposedly Ford's original idea and Kurtz picked up on it.

    DI: "not look like a fairy tale."

    Star Wars is supposed to be fairy tale escapism. Perhaps you (and Kurtz) are the misinterpretors.

    DI: "If he had been worki
  15. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    But back on topic, Lucas is pesimistic about Episode III's box office potential simply because it will be a downer of a movie where the good guys utterly lose and the bad guys come out on top. He simply doesn't feel non-fans will understand or enjoy it.

    Now it's interesting to point out that THE PHANTOM MENACE's phenomonal success really caught Lucas off guard (early in the film's release, he made a losing bet with Steven Spielberg that PHANTOM wouldn't top $200 million). CLONES' box office was more in line with what he was expecting because he understood that he was finishing a story that he started telling over 20 years ago and he predicted that audiences simply wouldn't embrace it the way they had in 1977. He also set fairly low expectations for CLONES, anticipating that it wouldn't do much more than $230 million. He was wrong again.

    Because of that and because Episode III is going to end with a real down-beat, he says he's not expecting it to break $200 million.

    Makes sense to me. Of course, he may be proven wrong yet again. ;)
  16. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    How the heck can a divided fan base prove what George Lucas is saying is honest?

    Anyway, the only 'proof' you could obtain is through opinions and if you are to consider this division then A MAJORITY are on the positive side of that argument regarding the film and George's positive emphasis on the story. Therefore there is only proof that most agree with George and not your point.


    The fact that there is a sizeable number of fans who love the OT but not the PT, which can be seen on these boards, is proof. It doesn't have to be a majority. You've got your "bashers" and your "gushers". You couldn't argue that these detractors now always had these problems with ANH and ESB, because they love those two films, just not the prequels.

    2 films does not = trilogy. They loved the OT because we obviously love all the Star Wars films. There is only a small drop-off in fans of the PT from the OT. Opinion polls and sales/merchandising indicate a majority of Star Wars fans like and accept the PT.

    Merchandising for both prequels has underperformed, so I don't know what you're talking about there. Oh, and care to point me to some of these polls that show the majority of fans of the originals also like the new ones? And no, they don't love the OT because they love Star Wars as a whole, love they love OT because they love the OT. There is such a thing as loving the originals, or ANH and ESB, but not liking the prequels.

    How do you know it was Kurtz's influence that caused a higher success for Episode IV and V. For all you know it could have been Richard Marquand on VI. More likely if you are talking about the creative side.

    First, Lucas hired Marquand because he was easy to control. You have a man who was involved with the process telling you this; George wanted to vicariously direct through him, which he couldn't do with Kershner.

    Kurtz's artistic contribution to both Episodes IV and V is so minimal your argument collapses there. Kurtz had absolutely no authoritative creative input, only a few ideas and opinions that did not require to be accepted.

    What do you know of his artistic contributions? Absolutely nothing.

    What we do know is that George's two best films were produced by this man, as well as the two best Star Wars films. All of a sudden, Kurtz leaves, the next one is thought of as not as good as the first two, and the next two are bashed even worse. Obviously this man was doing something right.

    Apart from the fact they openly admit in interviews ILM was extremely important in making it happen. The technology utilised on TTT is a culmination of what ILM has being working at for years. FACT, do some research!

    ILM's work is proprietary; they don't give out their secrets. Anything WETA did with LOTR they had to do themselves. You can't just say "Well, ILM was around first and breaking ground before WETA was even around". It's true, but has no bearing on WETA's accomplishments.

    You are completely unbelievable, DI. Why don't you just take a look at the effects on offer in both films and stop attacking them for the simple reason that they are films you personally want to criticise. Why because they are SW Prequels.

    Many people do not understand why The Matrix beat TPM. It developed one technical device whose use in other films up to this point has been absolutely mininal. The work done on creating wholly realised digital environments and characters for TPM and AOTC has already proved to be far more important. And don't give me that "But the academy thought it was better" cobblers. They also thought Annie Hall was better/more important than SW. Was it? Did it prove to be the more important development in film-making years later?


    The point of the Oscars is not to pick what is the most important, not to pick what will have the biggest impact, it is to pick the best, or, in the case of technical awards, the best in how it relates to the film. There are purely technical awards such as the VES (where TTT beat the crap outta AOTC), but the Oscars a
  17. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    I'm just trying to see what proof there is that the general public preferred the PT over LOTR.

    Ah, you're adopting Philip's tactic now -- changing the subject and pretending that was the subject all along.

    No one EVER said that the public preferred the PT over the LOTR borefests. EVER.

    Box office has been mentioned and summarily dismissed.

    Yeah, because box office shows that TPM made a lot more than either of the LOTR borefests and the box office for AOTC and the LOTR borefests is roughly comparable.

    Critic's reviews has been mentioned and summarily dismissed.

    For the five hundred thousandth time, the subject was not about critics' reviews. I never said that the prequels got better reviews than the LOTR borefests

    And imdb.com has been mentioned and summarily dismissed.

    Because it does not represent the general public, no matter how desperately you wish it.

    All three are "proof" that LOTR is preferred to the PT,

    By whom? The only proof you have offered is the opinions of critics, and pretended it also proved that the public liked the LOTR borefests more than the prequels.

    yet all three were dismissed for no apparent reason,

    For many apparent reasons, which you choose to overlook or dismiss.

    other than "that doesn't mean a thing." Well, what does I ask?

    Certainly not a website that, by your estimate, represents 3% of the population.

    If there is any proof to dispute these three, I would gladly like to see it. Unless Shelley has some secret "general public" poll by Gallup of everyone worldwide who has seen the PT and LOTR, then the "proof" listed above is all we have.

    Such a poll would be the only way to prove which series is more well liked, and no such poll exists, nor, in all likelihood, will it ever.

    I'm still waiting for Darth_Insidious to prove that Gary Kurtz had any creative influence over ANH and ESB and "made them good" or "stood up to Lucas and made him focus on story instead of effects" (the only documented instance of Kurtz ever "standing up to Lucas" involved a special effect, not the story), or that Han was originally slated to die as Ford and Kurtz suggested.

    The best he can do is say that ROTJ and the prequels are missing some mystical thing called "Kurtz's influence." Even if Kurtz was still around wasting Lucas's money, how does Darth_Insidious know that the elements he hated in ROTJ and the prequels wouldn't still be there?

    Oh, and Darth_Insidious, another couple of things I'm still waiting to see you prove is that Kurtz was involved in convincing Lucas to keep "I know" in ESB, and that he's got a burgeoning career nowadays, as you've said.
  18. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    Yeah, because box office shows that TPM made a lot more than either of the LOTR borefests and the box office for AOTC and the LOTR borefests is roughly comparable.

    The Two Towers is way ahead of AOTC, and is about to pass TPM as well. The Fellowship of the Ring Did $200 million more than AOTC, and is behind TPM by $65 million. LOTR has been more successful box office wise.

    Because it does not represent the general public, no matter how desperately you wish it.

    As you yourself said, there is no poll that get's the opinion of all the people who saw the movies. However, the polls we do have, IMDB and Cinemascores being the major ones, do support this. Can you offer similarly large polls that have the prequels with higher scores than LOTR?

    And is it really necessary to precede every mention of LOTR with the word "borefest"? I don't attach the word "disappointment" to every mention of the PT.
  19. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    I'm still waiting for Darth_Insidious to prove that Gary Kurtz had any creative influence over ANH and ESB and "made them good" or "stood up to Lucas and made him focus on story instead of effects" (the only documented instance of Kurtz ever "standing up to Lucas" involved a special effect, not the story), or that Han was originally slated to die as Ford and Kurtz suggested.

    I've already posted my proof showing Kurtz's influence for the better. Kurtz is the only big name that didn't stay on for ROTJ. ROTJ is generally regarded as the least of the OT, as supported by RT, IMDB and Cinemascores. Kurtz produced the Lucas films that are generally considered his best, as supported by RT, IMDB and Cinemascores. As for Han, Kurtz himself says that he wanted Han to die.

    Oh, and Darth_Insidious, another couple of things I'm still waiting to see you prove is that Kurtz was involved in convincing Lucas to keep "I know" in ESB, and that he's got a burgeoning career nowadays, as you've said.

    I never said he has a burgeoning career nowadays. I asked to you prove that I did, and you ignored it. Which you tend to do a lot.

    Kurtz and Ford were the ones who wanted to keep the line in. It's pretty well known. After the test screening, which Kurtz talks about in that IGN interview, George was finally convinced to leave it.

    The best he can do is say that ROTJ and the prequels are missing some mystical thing called "Kurtz's influence." Even if Kurtz was still around wasting Lucas's money, how does Darth_Insidious know that the elements he hated in ROTJ and the prequels wouldn't still be there?

    You still haven't proved he pissed away George's money with nothing to show for it. And the elements of ROTJ that I have a problem with, the childishness in some scenes, and the fairytale ending, they were the very things Kurtz was opposed to having, and indeed, they led to him leaving.
  20. SkiHoth Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    Oh my god Shelley!!!!

    YOU MUST LEARN STATISTICS!!!

    When did I ever say that imdb represented 3% of the population???? NEVER!!!! Learn what +/- 3% means!!! Maybe if you read my earlier post you would've realized that it doesn't mean 3% of the population.

    And show me the box office where the PT made a lot more that either LOTR. Currently, this is how they stack up (in millions):

    SW:TPM $925.6
    LOTR:TTT $912.7 and counting
    LOTR:TFOTR $862.2
    SW:AOTC $648.3 and counting (IMAX)

    Looking at those numbers, LOTR is currently $201 million more than the PT, with the gap expanding slowly. There's your fact AND proof that LOTR beats the PT in box office.

    The critic's reviews are a fact that, in general, the critic's preferred LOTR to the PT. If you don't like their opinion, stop crying about it.

    And since you don't seem to have this "secret" Gallup poll showing the PT over LOTR, then the most widely polled category we can go on is imdb. But you don't seem to believe imdb since you claim it's run by the LOTR gestapo. Prove it.

    Currently, all the evidence points towards LOTR being more preferred than the PT.

    I'm waiting for you to provide evidence to the contrary. You have provided none yet. And where is your proof of this LOTR gestapo running imdb? I'm still waiting on that one too!
  21. SkiHoth Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    Shelley,

    As a side note concerning statistics:

    What do you think when you see the results of Gallup polls with a margin of error of +/- 3% or 4%? You think that means they polled 3% or 4% of the population? That's hilarious! That would be a few million people in the US alone! How do you think they'd go about polling that many people? And just think about the costs involved in one poll! It would take them a few weeks minimum with a couple thousand people just to do one poll!

    Learn statistics before you comment on +/- 3%.
  22. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    First, Lucas hired Marquand because he was easy to control.

    At least that's what Gary Kurtz says. [face_plain]
  23. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    Yeah, but he must be a liar, right? Since he does nothing but badmouth George? Even though he still talks to him on the phone. And even though they worked together on Return to Oz after they split up. And even though they did a lecture together.

    Sorry, but you can't call someone a liar just because you don't like them.
  24. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    I'm not calling him a liar. I just find it a bit dishonest to base your entire argument on a single, one sided interview. Ever heard of getting both sides of the story?

    And if Kurtz is such a creative genius, how do you explain the disastorous results of THE DARK CRYSTAL?
  25. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    I'm not calling him a liar. I just find it a bit dishonest to base your entire argument on a single, one sided interview. Ever heard of getting both sides of the story?

    There's no argument to be had. Kurtz was there at the time, and he's saying that George wanted a director who was easier to control. There's no reason to believe he's lying, and frankly, I'd take his word over George "I never said nine films!" Lucas who has lied in the past.

    And if Kurtz is such a creative genius, how do you explain the disastorous results of THE DARK CRYSTAL?

    I'm getting incredibly sick of being asked ot back up things I've never said. I never said Kurtz was a creative genius. I never said everything he touches magically turns to gold. I said that he produced George's best films, and the best Star Wars films. He and George used to be a wonderful team.

    And how exactly was The Dark Crystal a disaster? It has good Cinemascores, an okay IMDB rating of 6.9 (which happens to be higher than TPM's), and a good 77% on Rotten Tomatoes (which happens to be higher than both films in the PT).
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