Why is Lucas so pesimistic about Episode 3's box office potentital?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by seasider, Apr 4, 2003.

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  1. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Lucas who has lied in the past.

    Oh, so now Lucas is the liar. By the way, I can't help but notice that you only seem to trust Kurtz's word over Lucas simply because you want what Kurtz says to be true.

    And how exactly was The Dark Crystal a disaster? It has good Cinemascores, an okay IMDB rating of 6.9 (which happens to be higher than TPM's), and a good 77% on Rotten Tomatoes (which happens to be higher than both films in the PT).

    Oh, so that means the prequel films are every bit as good as the Kurtz produced THE DARK CRYSTAL. I think you've just argued yourself into a corner, slick. Don't ya just hate it when that happens?
  2. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    Oh, so now Lucas is the liar. By the way, I can't help but notice that you only seem to trust Kurtz's word over Lucas simply because you want what Kurtz says to be true.

    George has been caught lying before. About how he never said he wanted to do nine films. Kurtz has never been shown to be a liar from anything he's said.

    Oh, so that means the prequel films are every bit as good as the Kurtz produced THE DARK CRYSTAL. I think you've just argued yourself into a corner, slick. Don't ya just hate it when that happens?

    ....what? What on earth are you talking about? Good Cinemascores, higher than TPM on IMDB, and higher than both prequels at RT? How does that mean The Dark Crystal is of the same quality as the prequels? How the hell did I argue myself into a corner?

    And for the last time, I never, never said that Kurtz was a genius, or that whatever he tocuhes turns to gold, or that he's produced anything truly great outside of AG, ANH and ESB. I only said that Kurtz and Lucas worked best together.
  3. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    DI - don't take this Kurtz-influence thing too far.

    Since we're talking statistics, I would call Kurtz's presence with LF and the "overall" popularity of ANH and ESB a SLIGHT POSITIVE CORRELATION.

    As in, Kurtz was there, and those movies were good. Kurtz leaves, the other movies (quite possibly) weren't as good.

    I personally loved ROTJ with the exception of the Ewoks, but that's another story.

    Don't give the presence of Kurtz TOO MUCH CREDIT, although it's quite possible he did have some.

    And while I love the OT and prefer it to the PT, part of the problem is that we grew up with the OT and (I personally think ) we see it through rose-coloured glasses. There's many reasons why the PT has been looked at through a microscope...

    But that's a different story as well.

    Let's all be "big" enough to admit that we all throw a nice mixture of fact and opinion out there.

    Some remembers that Harrison Ford wanted his character to die - I remember reading that too, but maybe I was reading someone's post about it...

    Facts can be twisted any which way, and we call our perception of them plus our own opinions fact as we see it.
  4. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    Garth, it isn't just that the best Star Wars films are the ones he produced, but also that he produced George's two best films as well. Obviously he must've had a big presence of some kind. I know he took time out to work and talk with the actors when filming ANH, because George only gave them vague direction; his famous "Faster, more intense" line. He was also a big proponent of the story being the biggest priority. Beyond that, nobody knows any more specifics of what he did, but the drop-off in both cases makes it apparent that he played a big role.
  5. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    First, Lucas hired Marquand because he was easy to control.

    POST PROOF OR RETRACT.
  6. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5

    When did I ever say that imdb represented 3% of the population???? NEVER!!!! Learn what +/- 3% means!!! Maybe if you read my earlier post you would've realized that it doesn't mean 3% of the population.


    You said that IMDB.com is the general public. Now can you explain to me how you drew that conclusion?
  7. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Darth_Insidious, if your retort is that Lucas is a liar, then why should we believe every word that comes out of Gary Kurtz's embittered mouth? Especially considering he talks about stuff he knows NOTHING about, and you just lap it up and spit it out in lieu of facts, which you CANNOT produce, that Kurtz made ANH and ESB good and if Lucas hadn't FIRED him, then we wouldn't have Ewoks or whatever other thing you hated in ROTJ and the prequels?

    Garth, it isn't just that the best Star Wars films are the ones he produced,

    Post proof or retract.

    but also that he produced George's two best films as well. Obviously he must've had a big presence of some kind.

    Post proof or retract.

    I know he took time out to work and talk with the actors when filming ANH, because George only gave them vague direction; his famous "Faster, more intense" line.

    Post proof or retract.

    He was also a big proponent of the story being the biggest priority.

    Post proof or retract.

    Beyond that, nobody knows any more specifics of what he did, but the drop-off in both cases makes it apparent that he played a big role.

    Post proof or retract.
  8. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    George has been caught lying before.

    Post proof or retract.

    About how he never said he wanted to do nine films. Kurtz has never been shown to be a liar from anything he's said.

    Except when he lies about stuff he couldn't possibly know, like what goes on behind the scenes at ILM today and why Lucas chose Marquand to direct ROTJ and where, why, and when Lucas decided to make Luke and Leia siblings.

    And for the last time, I never, never said that Kurtz was a genius, or that whatever he tocuhes turns to gold, or that he's produced anything truly great outside of AG, ANH and ESB. I only said that Kurtz and Lucas worked best together.

    You said that Kurtz presently has a great career, that he made Lucas care about story, that he "stood up to Lucas," and that his "presence," whatever the hell that is, is "notably absent" in ROTJ and the prequels, that if he hadn't been fired that there would be no Ewoks or whatever other elements you hate in ROTJ and the prequels, that Lucas originally planned to kill off Han like Kurtz wanted. You offered absolutely ZERO proof for any of it other than your own biased opinions that ROTJ and the prequels are all about special effects and no story, or that Han said that he had a feeling he would never see the Millennium Falcon again.

    I will ask you again: post proof or retract that Kurtz made Lucas care about story, that there would be no Ewoks or whatever other elements you hate if Lucas hadn't fired Kurtz, that Kurtz was in any way responsible for ANH and ESB being good, that he had any creative influence at all over the movies, that he persuaded Lucas to let "I know" stay in ESB, that the prequels are all about special effects and no story, and that Lucas originally planned to kill Han off.

    POST PROOF OR RETRACT.
  9. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    I've already posted my proof showing Kurtz's influence for the better.

    You have posted no such thing.

    Kurtz is the only big name that didn't stay on for ROTJ.

    Big deal.

    ROTJ is generally regarded as the least of the OT,

    Post proof or retract.

    Kurtz produced the Lucas films that are generally considered his best,

    Post proof or retract.

    As for Han, Kurtz himself says that he wanted Han to die.

    That's not what was being disputed, and you know it. What was being disputed was whether Lucas originally planned to kill off Han. Post proof or retract that he did.

    I never said he has a burgeoning career nowadays.

    Yes you did.

    I asked to you prove that I did, and you ignored it. Which you tend to do a lot.

    Not like you ignore it when people ask you to post proof to support your assertions.

    Kurtz and Ford were the ones who wanted to keep the line in.

    Ford was. Post proof or retract that Kurtz was in any way involved.

    It's pretty well known.

    By whom? You and the rest of the Kurtz Kult?

    After the test screening, which Kurtz talks about in that IGN interview, George was finally convinced to leave it.

    Irvin Kershner sure didn't tell it that way. He never even mentions Kurtz. Kershner and Ford persuaded Lucas to let the line stay in for a test audience. The test audience roared with laughter, and Lucas thought that meant they hated it, but afterwards, they overheard people saying how much they loved the line, so Lucas was finally persuaded. Source: The Annotated Screenplays.

    You still haven't proved he pissed away George's money with nothing to show for it. And the elements of ROTJ that I have a problem with, the childishness

    What childishness?

    in some scenes, and the fairytale ending,

    What about the "fairytale" ending? Kurtz wanted to kill off Han. Yeah. Kill off Han, put all the characters through horrible grief again after losing him once, end the saga on a down note rather than an up one. Am I glad Lucas vetoed that idea.

    they were the very things Kurtz was opposed to having, and indeed, they led to him leaving.

    Leaving? He was fired because he was incompetent and because he told Lucas how to tell his story. Those are the same reasons Jim Henson hated working with him on "Dark Crystal."
  10. SkiHoth Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    Shelley, how many times do I have to tell you? LEARN STATISTICS!!!

    I'm not going to explain to you simple statistical sampling. If you don't understand that, then you will never understand why imdb represents the general public. Come back again once you've learn statistical sampling, then maybe you can have a more informed conversation.

    And I'm still waiting for your proof of the LOTR gestapo controlling imdb. You said you have it. POST PROOF OR RETRACT!
  11. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    Shelley, just reading what you post gives me a headache. I've never said half the things you're accusing me of, and the other half I've proven before. And you know this, and are just trying to make things difficult.

    Me: These are the reasons why...
    You: Post proof or retract.

    Me: I've already proven them in earlier posts.
    You: Post proof or retract.

    Me: Gary Kurtz was not fired, he left, and here is proof.
    You: Gary Kurtz was fired for incompetence.

    Me: According to RT, IMDB, and Cinemascores, these are the two films generally regarded as the best Star Wars films, and these are the ones generally regarded as the best Lucas films.
    You: Post proof or retract.

    You: Kurtz talks about things he doesn't know about.
    Me: He doesn't talk about what goes on today with George, only what went on when he was working with him.
    You: Post proof or retract.

    You: Jim Henson hated working with him.
    Me: I never heard this. When did he says that?
    You: Jim Henson hated working with him.

    You: Post proof that (x) would've been different in ROTJ is Kurtz had worked on it.
    Me: You see, the whole reason Kurtz left was because he didn't agree with doing (x) in that movie. If he had stayed on, it would've only been if George had allowed him to change it.
    You: Post proof that (x) would've been different in ROTJ if Kurtz had worked on it.

    You sound like a broken record, you're a one trick pony, and you're one trick is long past being amsuing.
  12. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    George has been caught lying before.

    No, his only crime is changing his mind. He can't help it if some fans want to try and take his every breath as unchangable gospel.
  13. Clonetrooper1000 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2003
    star 3
    Darth_Insidious: "The fact that there is a sizeable number of fans who love the OT but not the PT, which can be seen on these boards, is proof."

    Wait a minute, you said "George talks big about how much he emphasizes the story, but that's all it is, just talk." and then said "The proof is in the divided fanbase, and in the many reviews that say this."

    I do not believe a division in a fanbase can bring out any proof on a person's comment. But lets say for your sake we do use this 'division' in the fans over the PT. Surely the side of that division that holds the MAJORITY is the only one that you could use as proof. You are using a MINORITY to say that it is proof about Lucas/VFX comment and VFX in films. Explain yourself. Because this division is certainly not proof and if it was the majority goes against your theory.

    DI: "ILM's work is proprietary; they don't give out their secrets. Anything WETA did with LOTR they had to do themselves"

    Ha Ha [face_laugh]. So they had to develop them all from scratch. Stop being so simple-minded and realise that much of the technology utilised by Weta stems from the work ILM have done over the years, DI. There are no secrets. ILM-pioneered and ILM-created technologies are now being used by all major VFX studios.

    DI: "It's true, but has no bearing on WETA's accomplishments."

    Well according to Weta it does and I will try and get the quote I need because I read it in a newly-published DVD magazine in the UK. Give me some time. ;)

    DI: "Jar Jar wasn't the first CG character to star in a film. He wasn't the first CG character to use motion-capturing, as T2 accomplished this quite nicely."

    Never said he was the first CG character to star in a film. I said he was "the first completely interacting CG character of this kind."

    The work done in previous films was important in leading to Jar Jar, as was Jar Jar leading to Gollum. Here's a little 'motion-capture' development list and who created them.

    1991 - T2 - (On the liquid metal T-1000)
    ----- *ILM*

    1993 - Batman Forever - (Digital Stunt Double)
    ----- *ILM*

    1997 - Titanic - Used on 'filler' characters
    ----- *ILM*

    1999 - TPM - Used on a completely CG interacting character
    ----- *ILM*

    THESE ARE THE STEPPING STONES THAT LED TO GOLLUM

    And I am one to admit Gollum was pretty special. However I at least have an appreciation of those that made it happen. Weta do as well.

    DI: "What do you know of his artistic contributions? Absolutely nothing."

    And you obviously do not know what a Producer actually does! ;)

    The main creative responsibility falls into the hands of the author, screenwriters and the director - NOT the producer.

    Regarding the Matrix. Thats an interesting point, yet it has been constantly publicised that "bullet-time" was the big success. This was what was praised in the documentaries and shown to Academy voters and at the ceremony. perhaps it jsut goes to show that when it comes to VFX like other things, people like to go with the flow.

    DI: "Star Wars is fantasy, not a fairy tale."

    Do not take me so literally. Of course I do not think it is strictly a 'fairy-tale' but it projects a similar meaning through its escapist nature. Also, not all fairy-tales have a happy ending. Overall, I agree of course it is 'science-fiction/fantasy' literally but in terms of its mythical nature, you should see where I was coming from.

    DI, regarding the Kurtz thing again. Perhaps you should post some evidence of his important conrtibution to Episodes IV and V and then your point might be justified. But there is no proof because he had no creative importance ;)

    DI: "Lord of the Rings is one example."

    It is also strictly fantasy, however, although Tolkien claimed there was no allegory (and I agree), it is far less escapist, because the characters are far more down to earth and relatable. I love them both though.

    DI: "I've already posted my proof showing Kurtz's infl
  14. Jedi knight Pozzi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2000
    star 6
    `First, Lucas hired Marquand because he was easy to control.'

    First, Lucas hired David Lynch, who refused as he didn't want to make a George Lucas film. Could you imagine Lucas telling Lynch about. My answer to that is maybe.

    Also, just wondering, if you all stopped using Post Proof or Retract would the world end?

    EDIT: To misquote Wilde `The topic was great, but the posting was terrible.'
  15. Philip023 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2002
    star 3
    Well, I guess I should chime in again.

    I tried to read every thread from page five to here but it got pretty repetitive.

    Its funny that when someone asks Shelley to post proof, he ignores their request, quotes that persons comment and issues his own request for proof. A style of discussion that already signals that she's lost.

    Alot has been offered about the quality of the prequels, etc. True, there is no ONE single site that one can guage public opinion. That happens in politics a well. That's why pollsters call it random sampling.

    That would really be the only way to find out which film was better liked by the general public.

    But if we go by a preponderance of the evidence and look at web polls, magazine articles/polls, E! online surveys, what have you, I would hypothesize that the two LOTR movies were generally more well received than the SW prequels.

    If we don't go by personal opinion, as Shelley does, then we have to look elsewhere to find data. So we go to polls, rotten tomatoes, and other sites offering critical review listings. I find rotten tomatos to be fair and balanced. Both SW movies got passing grades and so did LOTR movies. But the LOTR movies had higher passing grades. That is undeniable.

    Saying a critic has it in for George or that a certain poll is run by a 'gestapo' of Lucas haters CANNOT be quantified or proven which is why Shelley says these things.

    On Kurtz and ESB:

    If someone wants the true dope on how ESB was produced/directed/written, etc. check out the book Empire Builder. I wish I knew the author but it details the making of ESB and the first hand experience by the author of who got credit for what and why.

  16. SWfan2002 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2002
    star 4
    But if we go by a preponderance of the evidence and look at web polls, magazine articles/polls, E! online surveys, what have you, I would hypothesize that the two LOTR movies were generally more well received than the SW prequels.

    I would hypothesize that the reason for this is because the the PT bashing that people undoubtedly hear in the media. Yes, the majority of PT reviews have been positive, but the media certainly doesn't reflect that. A rule of thumb is that if people hear things over and over again they will beleive it. The media has been telling viewers for several years now that the PT is not very good, and low and behold, people are believing it! Especially those people who don't really care about SW one way or the other. They hear SW is bad all the time, so they assume it really is-- whether they've seen the films or not. People want to fit in and you don't fit in by liking SW when the media proclaims it to be really bad.
  17. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    I find rotten tomatos to be fair and balanced. Both SW movies got passing grades and so did LOTR movies. But the LOTR movies had higher passing grades. That is undeniable.

    The main problem with Rotten Tomatoes is that the critirea used to determine which reviews are "fresh" and which are "rotten" is completely subjective. There have been many an occasion where a generally positive review has been counted as "rotten" and vice versa.

    And just because a film may have a higher box office gross than another doesn't mean the film is any better liked than another, it just means that it was more popular, which isn't the same thing as being liked. For instance, say a movie sells 30,000 tickets and another sells 300,000 tickets but they both receive an 80% approval in exit polls. In this case it's not fair to say that the one that sold fewer tickets was less liked. On the contrary, it was liked just as much even though it happened to sell fewer tickets.

    The bottom line is, there is no definitive, subjective way to determine the quality or popularity of a film. At the end of the day, it's just somebody's opinion.
  18. Philip023 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2002
    star 3
    Durwood,

    I would agree. In essence, we are left with a subjective view - subject to our own likes and dislikes of what constitutes a good movie - of which film might be a consensus favorite.

    However, barring a poll by Gallup, USA Today, or other agency that uses random sampling, we are left with internet polling, rotten tomatos, what have you. I think rotten tomatoes is good in that each critic's review is given and a score is given to the review. The same goes for Yahoo and several others.

    Yet SWFan (the post above yours) suggests that media bias has influenced the opinion of the general public - perhaps even SW fans (dread!) into thinking that the movies were less than stellar. I find that hard to believe - especially for the visitors of this site.

    SW fans seem to come to some agreement - within the family (and outside it for that matter) - that ESB was perhaps the most well made, well rounded of the original or pre-trilogy movies in that it advanced the story the best. Why can we agree (if we do) on this but not on a movie that perhaps challenges SW's storied place in film lore?

    Because someone or group (critics) have a bias against George Lucas? Apart from some harsh reviews of perhaps the comedic elements of TPM or AOTC or his perceived over-reliance on special effects - if you look at many of those "harsh" reviews - you'll see that many compliment as often as they complain. No evidence has been proffered that any bias exists beyond a review itself, which is where a bias would be, wouldn't it?

    So, we're left with media polls, internet polls and reviews, box office receipts and word of mouth. Taken all together, I think we have a good view of what I call the pulse of pop culture. And taken as a whole, and I'll try and find these elements if asked, I would again theorize that LOTR seems to be more of a consensus favorite among these mediums which take the pulse of the general public.

  19. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    Hey SkiHoth! How about knocking off the insults. You have not showed any proof on your arguments. This is probably why SW fans can not get dates. They do not know how to treat a lady.

    imdb represents the general public

    No it does not!! No internet poll represents any general public opinion. A small minut sample but not the whole entire world, country, universe. There are billins of people. Do you think they got a poll from each and every person. No! I took stat in college and stats never represent the whole just a part of the population. And it is not an acurate way of determining anything becuas eyou do not get stats from everyone in the world.
  20. SkiHoth Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    Ekenobi,

    I've shown proof in all my arguments. Go back and read them. If you don't like the proof, that's your opinion.

    And yes, if you understand statistical sampling, imdb *DOES* represent the general public! And statistics *DO* represent the whole! Why do you think that we have polling? Just for the hell of it? The larger the sample, the greater the accuracy. And like I said, imdb's results probably have an accuracy of +/- 3% of the general population. Go back and open up your statistics book.

    And don't go putting everyone down on this board, including yourself, by putting such a sexist statement in your post. Maybe you should grow up and learn a thing or two about equality while you open your stats book.
  21. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    A few weeks ago Shelley was repeatedly claiming that George Lucas fired Gary Kurtz (and other malicious rumors) on a thread called "Explanation wanted: what's the deal with Gary Kurtz?" on the SW Community Forum, for about a week I asked her to show some proof of this. She had none.
    Did she apologise? No. Did she retract? No.
    Instead she waits a couple of weeks and starts spreading the same rumor on this thread, with statements such as:
    ...and if Lucas hadn't FIRED him...
    and:
    ...because of Kurtz's guzzling the budget like it was booze

    Yes, very colorful, and notice how the word fired is put in capitals.
    And again she will not provide any proof. After a while she'll leave it, but I'm sure she'll do it again on some other thread. It's an old trick - spread a nasty rumor, you don't need proof, just repeat it often enough until it sticks in people's minds.
    She's tried spreading other rumors about Jim Henson and Kurtz too.
    I think that's a disgraceful way to act, and it's depressing that she can get away with it.

    And what is Gary Kurtz's crime ?
    Well he worked with Lucas for 10 years producing 3 of the most beloved films in history. Some crime.

    So why does Shelley have such vitriolic hatred for the man?
    He DARED to criticise The Phantom Menace. He was asked his opinion, he gave an honest answer. How shocking.

    Let me ask this : Why shouldn't someone criticise The Phantom Menace? really - Why?

    Shelley's other contribution to this debate is to endlessly chant : LOTR borefests, LOTR borefests, LOTR borefests, LOTR borefests, on and on like an irritating child. If this isn't baiting I don't know what is.

    And then there was the bizarre theory that IMDB was being controlled by "LOTR Gestapo" !
    We're all entitled to our opinions but after several pages of attacking LOTR she then says:
    and I don't hate LOTR.
    It's difficult to make sense of such an opinion.

    We're free to express our opinions, but I think that to knowingly spread malicious, baseless rumors is an abuse of the privellege.

    gez
  22. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    hear hear.

    Apparently, most people in this thread can agree that essentially it comes down to one's own opinion.

    But myself and others have listed several good reasons why people may consider LOTR better than the PT (or why the OT is generally considered better than the PT), and yet, those reasons are just wrong because...well, "I don't agree with them, therefore they musut be wrong."

    I'm not sure if we should be PERSONALLY ATTACKING people though.

    If you don't like a post, just ignore it. Let's leave it to the admins to deal with any problems: if you feel that Shelley or anyone else is causing a disturbance or just flaming to start a war, PM an admin.

    Otherwise, just consider useless posting as useless posting.

    I personally find I can't stand talking to either strong gushers OR strong bashers, because it's either "SW is so unbelievably amazing that there's no way you can critique it", or "the PT is a joke - Lucas is an idiot. It all sucks, there's nothing good in the PT."

    Anyway, trying to get back to the topic, I think Turn on the Bright Lights is a fantastic album.

    I mean...I think one must take critical opinion with a grain of salt, but surely if all of these internet film review sites are saying they like LOTR better than the PT, and the OT better than the PT, it must mean something?

    Or no wait, they're all just a bunch of idiots. Apparently.

    I dunno about Lucas making that bet on the gross for TPM - it sounds like "preparing for the worst, hoping for the best."

    If he's nervous about the possible success of TPM, of course it's easier to say, "man, there's no way it will crack $200 million," than "I'm pretty sure it will be one of the highest-grossing films of all time."
  23. SkiHoth Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    gezvader28 and GARTH_MAUL:

    Thanks for the intelligent posts.
  24. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    SkiHoth,

    you're just praising us because we're backing you up. lol

    thanks though - it's not often I get "Garth" and "intelligent" in the same line.

    Usually, it's "shut up" and "Garth", or "did you touch my butt?" and "Garth".;)
  25. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    No, his only crime is changing his mind. He can't help it if some fans want to try and take his every breath as unchangable gospel.

    If it was just that then there'd be no problem at all. But he's said that he never said there was going to be nine films, which was a lie. Besides that, he also says that he originally wanted Greedo to shoot first, yet never offers any kind of explanation whatsoever as to why he didn't do it that way. Revisionist history.

    Wait a minute, you said "George talks big about how much he emphasizes the story, but that's all it is, just talk." and then said "The proof is in the divided fanbase, and in the many reviews that say this."

    I do not believe a division in a fanbase can bring out any proof on a person's comment. But lets say for your sake we do use this 'division' in the fans over the PT. Surely the side of that division that holds the MAJORITY is the only one that you could use as proof. You are using a MINORITY to say that it is proof about Lucas/VFX comment and VFX in films. Explain yourself. Because this division is certainly not proof and if it was the majority goes against your theory.


    It's quite simple: according to IMDB, Rotten Tomatoes and Cinemascores, three unbiased indicators, the OT was more well-liked. Now, taking the reviews, what are the most often heard complaints? Wooden acting and a focus on effects instead of story. On these boards, what are the most often heard complaints about the prequels? Wooden acting and a focus on effects instead of story. Overall, among detractors, what are the most often heard complaints about the prequels? Wooden acting and a focus on effects instead of story.

    So they had to develop them all from scratch. Stop being so simple-minded and realise that much of the technology utilised by Weta stems from the work ILM have done over the years, DI. There are no secrets. ILM-pioneered and ILM-created technologies are now being used by all major VFX studios.

    Dude, all work is built on previous work. ILM's work stems from the work of other VFX houses before it, such as the studio that did 2001: A Space Odyssey. And their work stems from other companies. And back, and back, and back. See, there's a difference between direct and indirect. Indirectly, all VFX films owe the creators of the previous VFX break-throughs. Directly, none of those older VFX guys who did those original work have anything to do with the work on the current ones. ILM did not have any part in creating the visual effects seen in LOTR; it was WETA, with some help from Digital Domain, who were properly credited to.

    It's beyond idiotic to attribute the current work of any field to the past originators of that field. The praise that is heaped upon WETA is theirs alone. Just like I wouldn't expect any praise heaped on ILM for ANH to be shared with people like Ray Harryhausen.

    Never said he was the first CG character to star in a film. I said he was "the first completely interacting CG character of this kind."

    The work done in previous films was important in leading to Jar Jar, as was Jar Jar leading to Gollum. Here's a little 'motion-capture' development list and who created them.

    1991 - T2 - (On the liquid metal T-1000)
    ----- *ILM*

    1993 - Batman Forever - (Digital Stunt Double)
    ----- *ILM*

    1997 - Titanic - Used on 'filler' characters
    ----- *ILM*

    1999 - TPM - Used on a completely CG interacting character
    ----- *ILM*

    THESE ARE THE STEPPING STONES THAT LED TO GOLLUM

    And I am one to admit Gollum was pretty special. However I at least have an appreciation of those that made it happen. Weta do as well.


    Completely interacting CG character? Done before in T2, with the liquid-metal T-1000. Of his kind? Yes, he was the first CG Gungan character. Very nice.

    Jar Jar used the same technology used in previous motion-capped CG characters, he just used it more. Much like all the effects in TPM itself; nothing new, just used everything more.

    Regarding the Matrix. Thats an interesting poi
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