CT Why is Return Of The Jedi considered the weakest of the originals?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Feelicks, Feb 19, 2013.

  1. Charlie512 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 1
    Too bad George felt he had too.

    [face_sigh]
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  2. Red.Two Jedi Master

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    Nov 25, 2012
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    There have already been a lot of well written replies, but I'll just throw my own log on the fire.

    1. Han Solo is completely emasculated
    2. Boba Fett's comic relief death
    3. Ewoks taking out Stormtroopers with sticks & stones

    That about sums it up.
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  3. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    Personally I thought the Han of ANH and ESB was a bit of a brat- it's not till he's prepared to give up Leia when he thinks she loves someone else- that he truly matures.
  4. MOC Yak Face Classic Trilogy and Saga Co-Mod.

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    He was a bit of a brat, but that played well against the extreme earnestness of some of the other characters. His willingness to let Leia go when he thought she loved another was a worthy moment, I agree. I also agree with Ford, though, that killing him off early would've been great for the film and the saga.

    I've just about come to terms with the ewoks 'distracting' the imperials as part of the ongoing theme of the meek overcoming the mighty.

    Boba Fett's unworthy demise I'll never come to terms with!
  5. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    The EU does have a "falling into a Sarlacc is only an inconvenience for someone as heavily armed and armoured as Boba" approach, it must be said.
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  6. MOC Yak Face Classic Trilogy and Saga Co-Mod.

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    So I hear. It's not so much that he ended up in the pit, it's more the Laurel and Hardy kind of way it was done. GL humour at work once again I guess.
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  7. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    It is a little slapstick-ish- but slapstick happens in more SW movies than just RoTJ.
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  8. MOC Yak Face Classic Trilogy and Saga Co-Mod.

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    That's definitely true. Often they involve droids from what I can recollect. However, I can't think of another situation where a character as dark and mysterious as Fett is introduced in one movie, and then finished off so quickly and so comically at the start of another.
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  9. d_arblay Force Ghost

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    May 26, 2005
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    I don't have a massive problem with Boba's death. He's a pretty minor character granted much greater significance by the fans than the films themselves. I have more of a problem him being in AOTC. He just wasn't necessary. Lucas was trying too hard to please the fanbase.
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  10. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

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    Apr 23, 2013
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    I have never understood the utter fascination with Boba Fett going all the way back to the early 80's by the fans. Don't get me wrong, he was a cool Bounty Hunter in ESB, but many of my friends put him on the Mt. Rushmore of SW Characters for some reason?

    It always boggled my mind that Lucas would shoehorn a character like Jango Fett in the PT obviously to please the OT fans, and then turn around and make changes like Greedo Shooting First or putting Hayden in as a Force Ghost which would piss off the OT fans in the same breath.
    Last edited by Carbon1985, Jun 19, 2013
  11. d_arblay Force Ghost

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    May 26, 2005
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    Well Lucas is neither entirely about pleasing or annoying the fanbase one way or the other. There are changes he's obviously passionate about making - the reaction to which doesn't concern him, and stuff he's happy to indulge the fans with when he can - as long as it doesn't compromise the overall story or his vision.
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  12. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    This, in a nutshell.

    If Lucas really was all about "pleasing the fans" (or rather, pleasing the kind of fans that complain a lot)- he'd change things in response to all those complaints- but he isn't.

    Star Wars Heresies had some interesting things to say on this subject "why Lucas isn't a sell-out":

    http://thestarwarsheresies.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/lucas-sell-out.html
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  13. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    Jan 17, 2003
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    How would one classify the Luke Scream from the 97 TESB SE??? He put that in there - only to take it out of the 04 edition*. Maybe that wasn't based on audience reaction, but he definitely changed his mind as to the 'necessity' of that element being there (and no "the Luke Scream was part of my vision for TESB but we didn't have the technology in 1980 to do it" guff).

    *The ONE change that I'm glad that he made.....
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  14. Ganger Chosen One

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    Dec 9, 1999
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    First off. Great acting?? I think this movie has the poorest character development of the trilogy. The love story is "just there" because our characters hooked up on the last movie, so that's that. Leia is "someone who loves" Han and nothing else is explored, just an awkward love triabgle between brother, sister and rogue.

    Leia is just plain. She isn't bickering and tough, she's just there for the sake of it, because she's an important part of the rebellion. She doesn't even act. So she gets put in a slave costume, she falls of her bike, is feared dead and becomes friends with ewoks . . a lot of things "happen to her" but there's really no character development.

    Unfortunately the same happens for Han Solo and it's such a pity, probably the greatest character in the previous films just becomes filler. Now he's a respected rebel leader, very serious, with diminished sense of humor and always does the right thing. It's an example for the youth. All this is synonymous with BORING. One of the biggest wastes of a great actor (other great example is Sam Jackson as Mace Windu but that's another story).

    Great romance?? Compared to The Empire Strikes Back, there is no love story here. the characters are in love because that happened in the last movie, there's nothing going on in this one.

    Comparing ewoks to the gungans are not going to make them any less ridiculous.

    I don't have any major beef with Jedi besides this, I love the movie. But the reasons I gave (which are based on personal opinion, not fact) make this the worst of the trilogy for me. It has the worst acting and supporting character development, specially Han and Leia who were GREAT in Empire.
  15. Porkins4Ever Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2005

    Lucas has stated 'Art is never finished, just abandoned", I just think he looks at Star Wars as his work of art, and he just tinkers with it because he is never satisfied. It doesn't matter if the changes are necessary, or if they even improve the product. I just think that he is a bit of a perfectionist (well in sound, editing and visuals..dialogue..not so much...), so he just sees his creation as always lacking something....
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  16. Ganger Chosen One

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    Dec 9, 1999
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    I'm not even that convinced that the changes are inserted for aesthetic and artistic reasons. Lucas probably just wanted Star Wars to be current and hip.

    Maybe now that hipsters are a thing and vintage 70s stuff is "cool" we will get a proper theatrical release version available. Disney would make LOADS of money for this.
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  17. MOC Yak Face Classic Trilogy and Saga Co-Mod.

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    I'd argue that there are times where Lucas clearly does put things in the films primarily to please fans - particularly in the PT. That's his prerogative. But that's not really the issue here is it? Nor is the issue how good a character Fett is. That's a matter of opinion. But widespread opinion after TESB was that he was an interesting character. A character who quickly developed something of a cult status. People turned up hoping to see that character developed further and they got what they got. That was a factor, among others, which caused people to think less of the film - rightly or wrongly. That's our prerogative.
  18. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    Did they add this for the Blue Rays? [face_thinking]
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Jun 19, 2013
  19. Porkins4Ever Force Ghost

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    Apr 12, 2005


    Hmmm....You better watch what you post...I'm picturing Han wearing Hipster Glasses, and then not shooting first....
  20. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    He'll need a goofy beard, a can of PBR.
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  21. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    What was TESB 'lacking' that justified Luke SCREAMING/YELLING like a deranged Tarzan???

    Sorry, George... not buying the "Art is never finished, just abandoned" excuse in this case. [face_not_talking][face_talk_hand]
  22. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

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    Apr 23, 2013
    star 3
    I have always said that Lucas could change ANH because that was his movie, but to change ESB & ROTJ (who were directed by someone else) comes off as bizarre. Especially that Marquand died in 1987, it comes as creepy to edit another man's work. And the creepiest change is editing out Sebastian Shaw from the ghost scene after the actor actually died in real life! Show some respect for the deceased! I know many say Lucas produced ESB & ROTJ, but he still hired a director for a reason and it just comes off disrespectful to all parties when you take a step and look what he does.
    Last edited by Carbon1985, Jun 19, 2013
  23. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    ^^^^Right to all of the above.

    And let's not also forget that for many years, his 'misgivings' vis-a-vis the technical/presentation side of things centered primarily on the FIRST film - the one he made - and not the other two.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Jun 19, 2013
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  24. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2013
    star 3
    And if you notice he made very few changes to ESB cause Kershner was alive until last year, while has continually tampered with ROTJ because Marquand died before the 1st special Edition came out.
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  25. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Wasn't the Emperor Briefing scene modified well before Kershner's death? And there were other scenes in ESB that were changed too.