CT Why is Return Of The Jedi considered the weakest of the originals?

For the most part, I liked the whole Jabba's Palace/Han rescue. I mean, aside from the fact that the "rescue plan" makes absolutely NO SENSE whatsoever. I could've also done without the droid torture and stupid SE band they added in. Ugh. But the scene on the barge? That was pretty cool.

The movie goes completely downhill from there. Ewoks? Totally lame. People have already gone on length about why they feel this way, and I'm inclined to agree with them. No reason to rehash it here.

Leia's characterization---oh my god. I love Leia. She's one of my favorites, but she is completely wasted in this movie, and her characterization just doesn't mesh up with the rest of the trilogy. WTF is she doing wandering off to an Ewok village when she's in the middle of an important mission?? "Yeah, we need to get the shield generator down in time for the space assault, but let me just hang out with some bears and get my hair done." Makes NO SENSE. The princess in the first couple of films is strong and a fighter. Planet blown up? "No time for our sorrows, commander". Why? Because there was **** to get done. But on Endor, suddenly she's telling Luke she wishes she could "run away" from the battle/mission. Uh, what? Leia of Episode IV and V would *never* say this.

Han's characterization--while I understand that it's important to show he's matured, and yes, being in love and all that might tame him a bit, there was no reason to also give the character a frontal lobotomy in the process. I mean, I'm sorry, but am I the only one who thinks Han comes across as pretty, uh, "intellectually-challenged" in this film? I mean what is that "tapping a stormtrooper on the shoulder" plan all about? Was he in fifth grade? He just never came across as someone who knew what he was doing, or as someone capable/prepared to lead an all-important ground assault.

In fact, why *was* he picked for that part of the mission? He's arguably one of the best pilots out there, so why wasn't he used instead of Lando for the space battle? It would've made a whole lot more sense. (Han Solo not flying the "Falcon" in the entire movie is a HUGE gripe with me). Let Leia lead the ground assault. She seems to be a more appropriate choice, and it would give her something important to do.

The Luke/Emperor scenes. A lot of the dialogue seems redundant, and they seem to drag on a bit too long.

Why did Han forgive Lando right away? This makes no sense to me. And having some residual tension between the two characters would have been interesting. Sure, he can forgive him eventually, but give me a reason why.

Other than that, I liked the final space battle (although not the return of the "Death Star" plot device). And the speeder bike chase was fun for me.

Wow, sorry. I vented a bit there. It's just that this movie could've been so much better than what we were given. And it's a shame that the OT had to go out like that.

 

You know, looking at the demand for EU novels...Lucasfilm really blew what could have been a very lucrative live TV series in the 1980's.

But I would have had it so that Han stayed frozen...through the length of at least 2/3rds, maybe even an entire film. And that would have hung over the entire thing. Maybe even make the next film darker than ESB, as they grope in the dark hoping to find Han.

 

darth sinister, I disagree. There was no need to change Boba's voice. A thousand things could have happened to change his voice over the next twenty years. And I still keep to my other opinions.

 

Oooh, I kinda like that idea. It would've' added a whole new underlying layer of suspense and uncertainty. I love me some Han screen time, but that might've been worth the trade-off.

 

Definitely the Ewoks. Most people tend to hate the cute, comical stuff in Star Wars. I don't get it, personally. I never found the Ewoks, or even Jar Jar for that matter, annoying at all. I can kind of understand how some people might be bothered by the Ewoks playing such a huge role in defeating the Empire, but it never bothered me.

 

It's complicated - as I'm sure you know. But in the interest of clarifying things for everyone else... Before ESB was made, Luke was to have a sister, who would also be in Jedi training across the galaxy. The Brackett draft of ESB included this notion, naming the sister Nellith. Subsequent drafts dropped any mention of this. When Luke left Dagobah, Yoda would say that another hope would need to be found. But as more drafts were written, that line was changed to "there is another." It's possible that this was simply to affect the audience's expectations of Luke's success, but it's so tantalizingly close to the earlier concept of the already-in-training sister that one has to wonder if there was any relation.

However, the Kurtz-derived notion that the Sequel Trilogy would follow that sort of storyline (that ObiAlKenobi is sort-of referencing) doesn't seem to hold up. At the time the sister-across-the-galaxy was definitely in play, the Trilogy of Trilogies format didn't exist yet. There would have been twelve or more films, and at some point between Empire Strikes Back and the very last film in the series, the sister would have been found. Once the Trilogy of Trilogies was formed (1979ish), it's hard to know what exactly the plan was. Lucas talked about ideas for a Sequel Trilogy, but by the time of ESB the Emperor was gonna go as of the next film ("Star Wars III"). So the idea of the non-Leia sister and Luke joining forces to defeat the Emperor might not have been part of the plan at that point. We don't even know if the notion of the non-Leia sister was retained after it was written out of ESB. There isn't any available interstitial information; she's her own character in the early bit of planning for ESB, then she disappears (with some possible hints - "there is another"), and in one of the early outlines for ROTJ, Leia's name is annotated with the note "Sister!".

Actually, I don't think the story conferences even brought up the obvious problems with the possible storyline of the Rebels blowing up an inhabited planet - which is surprising - but there it is.

See above. Whether there was "ever" going to be one depends heavily on when you're talking about. Always in motion is the Star Wars.

 

Speaking of the "there is another."

Leia being the sister of Luke is a little bit of a disappointment. Among other things...Vader had very close contact with Leia in much of ANH...and yet he only notices that the Force is strong with Luke...from quite a distance....

I'm not sure how they could have done it in ROTJ. Make her a minor force user? Make it random chance?

 

I've tried to reconcile this in my head by explaining it this way: he sensed the Force in Luke because Luke actually used the Force while in the Death Star trench. While Leia never used the Force at all in his presence (unless you believe that's why she was so mentally strong against the torture, but that's merely a theory)

 

Sure it does. Get everyone into Jabba's, so that Luke could go in and make his bargain. Which he hopes will work, but he knows it probably won't. Which is why he intended to anger Jabba enough to go out to the Pit of Garkoon and then use aggressive negotiations to get everyone out.

Right and it was a good thing that she did, as doing so wound up getting the Ewoks on their side. Wicket helped save her life and she followed him. They still had time before the fleet was due to arrive.

She's saying this because she just had her whole world turned upside down and doesn't want to lose Luke to Vader.

It's called not letting the Imperials inside the generator bunker know that they're out there. If Han shot them, the Imperials would hear it and lock the door before they could get in. By luring the Scout Trooper over to the members of the strike team that was around the side, they got him to surrender without a single shot fired.

Because it was about resolving the relationship between Han and Leia by having them together on Endor, while Lando did his part elsewhere. Something that wouldn't happen if Han was in space and Leia was on Endor.

That's because Luke is resisting Palpatine.

Because Han came to understand that Lando didn't do it because he was angry at him. He did it to save his people, just as Han would if the reverse was true. That and Lando did take part in his rescue, and did his part to keep Leia safe.

None of the actors were going to do a show, save for Anthony Daniels, David Prowse and Peter Mayhew. Not to mention Lucas couldn't afford to make a show back then. As to Han, that wouldn't happen. Lucas had already scrapped what little plans he had for the ST and took the rest and put it into ROTJ. So Han had to be freed. Not to mention he had to convince Ford to even come back for ROTJ.

A lot could happen to any clone, but it doesn't unless the creator wants it to and Lucas didn't.

It was obvious based on his own admission and the observations of those around Lucas in the early 80's, that he was burned out on making anymore SW films. Lucas himself said that he wanted to spend more time with his daughter and that he didn't want to be stuck doing SW films, in order to keep his companies in the black. That's why he opened all of them up to other studios and the revenue from the money spent made them into what they became by the time he did the PT.

Lucas said that Leia was just as strong in the Force as Luke was, which is why it could have been either one of them that was trained. But due to circumstances, it wound up being Luke. In ANH, Vader doesn't sense Luke until the end of the film. He only senses Obi-wan and that's due to their years together. Note that later on, Palpatine cannot sense Luke arriving at Endor. In TPM, the Jedi don't sense Maul on Tatooine and Naboo. Likewise, Qui-gon does not sense the Force in Anakin. He makes his determination based on what the boy says to him about himself and then the Midichlorian test.

Lucas originally wrote that Leia's resistance was from a particular form of mental training to prevent something like that from happening. But this never made it into the film and with her being a Force sensitive, it quietly became that. This was first confirmed in "Shadows Of The Empire", when Leia was being seduced by Xizor, but when Chewie pointed out the hidden cameras, Leia got angry and Xizor's pheromones no longer had an effect on her.

 

But how does it make sense to get everyone into Jabba's palace? What's the point? So he has more people to rescue? And in the hologram message he's only bargaining for "Solo's life". Which he doesn't even know will work. How will he get the others out? Listen, I know why they put it in the script--they wanted the "whole gang" involved in getting Han out, but if you look at it objectively, it doesn't make sense. When Leia freed Han, it was obvious that her intention was to then sneak out of the palace with him. But Jabba woke up. But what if she had succeeded? Then Luke would have to go in anyway and save Chewie and the droids. Why didn't they see if Leia could do it on her own first?? Or why send Leia at all? Lando's already infiltrated the palace. Let him do it!

Again, I know *why* they (the writers) did it that way. Because it's touching to see Leia be the one to free Han (and trust me, I love that!) But again, it doesn't really make any sense.

Wait, *why* did she follow him? Your argument is because she "had time"? Still makes no sense. They're in the middle of a mission. There's probably plenty of strategy and pre-planning to go over, not to mention Luke and Han have no idea where she is. She should've just thanked him for saving her life and went on her way. Going back to "hang out" with them makes no sense. There's sort of a time-sensitive mission underway.

Yes, but her world was *literally* destroyed in Episode IV, and she was still chomping at the bit and ready to take on the Empire.

Yes, but it's still a weak plan. But luckily for Han, he's working within a weak script. So instead of just blasting our hero in the head, the storm trooper decided to follow him without withdrawing his weapon.

Yes, but it really makes no sense. And it's not like the Rebellion's PTB really care whether those two work things out. I know what you mean though, the writers needed them to resolve some things. Fine. Have some key scenes with them before they go their separate ways, or at the end when everything is settled. Listen, I don't say this lightly. I love Han and Leia (which you can probably tell by my avatar), but I would've loved seeing Han in the space battle even more. And Leia leading the ground assault? Waay cooler than her just "tagging along".

Yes, I realize that. But it gets repetitive and boring. Personally, I find that those scenes drag a bit. I'm sure there could've been a way to convey Luke's resistance while still punching up those scenes a bit.

Yes, but when did Han come to understand that? Don't you think a brief scene showing this would've been appropriate? Because as it stands: on Bespin he's throwing punches at him and snarky comments. The next he's saving him from the sarlaac pit and lending him his most prized possession. That's quite a leap with nothing in-between to show where this new attitude came from.

That's interesting--about Lucas, not the EU. I don't consider the EU a canon source for this stuff (and thanks to Disney, I won't have to anymore! Woohoo!)

 

Lando was sent in not to get Han out, but to provide recon details to Luke. That's why he has been gone for so long. Not just that, but Boba Fett is there and Lando knows that he cannot take him and Jabba's guards. The droids were sent in because Luke knew he wouldn't get through with his Lightsaber on his belt. He's not his father and Obi-wan, who could do it. He knows that he needs help. Artoo is there so that he can be on the barge with the saber. Leia was there to get Han out and if she had succeeded, then Lando could get Chewie and the droids out. If they failed, then Luke would come. He wanted the fight on his own terms and part of that was away from all of Jabba's goons and traps.

She went with Wicket out of gratitude and because she didn't know which way she was going. Since Wicket knew the land better than she did, she went with him. She was trusting her instincts.

Right and now she has a brother, meaning that she still has a family and she doesn't want to lose him. However, she still goes to fight in the end.

Not everyone in the Imperial army has to be a genius.

Han volunteered to lead the mission, because he had done infiltration runs before and was confident enough that he could do that. Leia still gives orders during the mission. As to Lando, as he stated, he had shown great skill at Taanab which is why he was chosen.

Lucas didn't want a big fight, but rather an emotional one. The opposite of the last duel.

There was a scene. The sandstorm scene in the deleted scenes section. It was cut due to pacing and the problems with making a sandstorm on a soundstage. You're left to infer that Chewie and Luke reassured him while in the dungeon.

 

True. However, the poster you and I were responding to was postulating an alternate ROTJ storyline, which, if enacted, probably would have required a less-burnt-out Lucas in order to happen. And if you've got a more enthusiastic Lucas, then maybe he would have been up to keeping that 1979 Trilogy of Trilogies plan (whatever it was) going. it's completely hypothetical.

I realize that's not exactly what my previous post was getting at, but it occurred to me while thinking about what that other poster was really saying.

 

I seen this on an animation forum I go to a few days ago. Half of the video is a koala (that swears a lot) defending ROTJ and the ewoks. It's kind of long with not a lot of action but it's worth a watch if you really like ROTJ. It seems appropriate for this thread.

Personally, ROTJ and ANH tie for my favorite.

 

I couldn't agree more. Ewoks may have saved our heros, but in my honest opinion it almost killed the movie. If it weren't for Palpatine, (who had all of the best lines) the movie would have flat lined.

 

YODA: "Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hm. Mmmm. And well you should not."

There's something to be said of that.

 

I, personally, have not got a clue as to why Return of the Jedi is considered the weakest of the originals, but if I had to guess then I would assume it has something to do with the Ewoks. For some reason, people do not like the Ewoks, and view them as the Star Wars equivalent of Care-Bears, instead of the instruments of destruction they were intended to be : )

Another reason, would probably be the 'happily ever after vibe' of the ending, as it was not 'real' enough...character shields...yadda, yadda, yadda...

That is the gist of it, I would assume.

 

It feels like it's rushing towards the conclusion, it wraps up most of what ESB worked to set up In the first 20 minutes, it reduces Han into a less charismatic charicature of himself and Leia is oddly side-lined. Having the climax simply be another Death Star feels lazy, as does Leia being Luke's sister. Ewoks don't actually bother me that much. But they aren't a positive either.
That said, Luke's journey is nicely done and everything in the Emperor's throne room is great. And since the OT is ultimately Luke's Heroes Journey, I still like the film for handling that right. I also think speeder-bikes and scout troopers are aesthetically the best thing in Star Wars.
It's still the most flawed OT film though.

 

It's kinda weird...but I bet that most Jedi hate probably comes from the people who were like at least 18 years old in 1983. Because they had seen the movies in the theaters and so had anticipation after seeing Empire, anticipation for like 3 years.

Me, I saw the movies on VHS cassette tapes. So for me, Jedi was right after Empire. At times, it was my favorite of the three because it had the best special effects. Like, the fighter sequences were amazingly intricate -- more so when you consider that it was all done using the still model/moving camera technique. Also, the final part with Luke vs Vader was very moving, as well as the removing of the mask.

Weird, but Ewoks never bothered me. Generally, Star Wars being cute and silly doesn't bother me so much.

Star Wars trying to be edgy and serious (AOTC and ROTS) I dislike vehemently.

 

I liked the Ewoks myself, but thankfully I was 13 at the time, so had plenty of innocence. I had never seen Jaws or Alien or anything else that would have changed my world view up to that point.



Then came Excalibur...

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I'm trying to understand how the notion that an increase of four to five feet in size, somehow makes for a more credible threat. Wouldn't it be equally silly to say that seven feet tall Wookiees using primative weapons, can overwhelm a legion of the finest troops in the Empire? Oh, I suppose if we're talking about ripping arms off of droids, but that's a whole different matter between an unarmed Protocol droid and a blaster wielding soldier. I don't think that too many people who disliked the Ewoks really thought about that. The Wookiee battle in ROTS was more credible since they had bowcasters, high end vehicles and explosives, along with three Jedi and a bunch of Clonetroopers.

 

It's not really the size, more that they're furry, speak in a cute "wub wub" (and pre-Dubstep too!) language and like to cuddle things. They feel like a species that was created solely to be marketable and prone to terrible kids TV specials, and that leaves a bitter aftertaste. I get that Lucas wanted to demonstrate that love and working together were more important than the technologically advanced Empire, but that didn't make particularly good viewing. It just made the Empire look horrendously ineffectual after they'd been built up as an extremely credible threat in Empire Strikes Back.

I think that's my main issue with ROTJ. It's so much lighter in terms of tone that I never feel tense like I still do while watching Empire. In that film, our heroes were on the run and I feel like they are in constant danger. The only scene that achieves that for me in ROTJ is the Emperor Throne Room scene.

 

Right, but TESB was designed as a chase film. ROTJ was like ANH in that it was an all out assault film. That's going to result in different tonalities. As to the Empire itself, its not the first time that a less than stellar military force managed to beat a stronger contingent.

 

The Jabba stuff is fun but very superfluous to the main Imperial vs. Rebels pot. It's very telling the movie opens with Vader and the bad guys, sidetracks for about 20 minutes of Jabba stuff, then right afterwards the next scene is back to Vader and the Emperor saying "Hey! Remember when we promised this at the start of the movie but then we got sidetracked with that Jabba thing! Here's the real movie, honest!" That being said, I do love the Jabba stuff as it's own self-contained movie inside of the movie but it is structurally kind of awkward.

I do admit that the Leia sister reveal is basically a way-easy-out for the love triangle but I think it works. While I 99% believe that it was literally just a way to get out of that, what %1 gives me pause is Luke's "Leia, hear me" moment in ESB and she does! As I know the OT, Leia was always Luke's sister and the fact she can hear him when he calls out in the Force works perfectly into that. I don't know how that moment would have played in 1980 and or how audiences would have contextualized it. It always plays as "Oh, because they're brother and sister!" to me.

 

In my experience the biggest gripe against RotJ is either the redemption of Anakin or the Ewoks. Personally the former is why it's my fave film of all 6. The latter I don't think kill the film but I do wish had been handled better. The whole Jabba nonsense I could do without.