CT Why is Return Of The Jedi considered the weakest of the originals?

honestly, I don't see how it's a recycled plot. One of the main reason the Emperor needed that base station was to enforce fear toward planets that don't agree with him. It was the one thing that kept his empire in check. We hear it said on board the first DS when Tarkin says to his imperial officers how that battle station is meant to incite fear to keep the local systems in line. Obviously when it was destroyed, the Empire knew the Rebels weren't going to be an opposition to be taken lightly. So what better way to lure them in order to annihilate them all in one blow by baiting them to try and blow it up again.

 

Darkslayer, David and Goliath, I like that possible allegory. As for Palpatine, I think that he and Vader should have trusted less in technology and used their knowledge of Dark Side more in governing the Empire.

 

Thanks, and I agree, it's what got Sidious there in the first place.

 

Palpatine really should have heard and heeded Vader's words in ANH,"Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."

 

I have always loved RotJ, and never had a problem with the Ewoks. They were cute as a button, but remember, they were originally going to EAT our heroes.

It just reminded me of a lot of animals, or Venus fly traps. Lure you in, then kill you.

The empire saw them as most of us do. Stupid teddy bears. Why should they take them seriously? Because even the smallest pebble can cause ripples in the pond.

 

I do wonder like IGN Staff Reviewer said, "what ROTJ would have been like if the Ewoks had been replaced with Wookies." I wonder if that would have made ROTJ more respected by fans.

 

In my opinion it's simple. ROTJ is a story movie. ANH, ESB are more action film.
Yes, there is action in Jedi. But, it's focus is the story. One reason I really like it.

 

ROTJ is actually my favorite movie of the OT, and my second favorite in the series (right behind ROTS).

I actually find the whole Jabba sequence in the beginning of the movie to be the weaker part. Not because the content is weak, but because it seems to drag on. Carrie Fisher's performance was also a bit off throughout the movie.

The scenes on DS II, on the other hand, are absolutely brilliant. ROTJ, had the best soundtrack of the OT, imo.

The whole thing with the Ewoks does seem a bit far fetched, but what I like about that whole sequence is that it keeps things light, so that the real focus becomes the conflict between Luke, Vader, and the Emperor, which is one of the most potent parts of the entire series, imo.

 

I've read the first page and the last page of this thread, so I apologize if this has been touched on in the intervening discussion, but here goes:

The Ewoks did not "defeat an entire legion of the Emperor's best troops" and/or "the Empire" itself, as some critics of ROTJ assert. A careful viewing of the final act of the film shows that the Ewoks are being soundly defeated -- shot out of the sky, fatally fired upon by AT-STs, their rope-traps ineffective -- until the moment when Chewbacca takes command of an AT-ST, and turns the tables on the Stormtroopers.

Chewie blasts the troops and other AT-STs, giving the Ewoks and the green-clad Rebel forces (who are often forgotten in discussions of the Battle of Endor) a chance to regroup. Only then does the tide turn, and the Ewoks find some success in defeating some of the Imperials. Even then, the battle is not won until Han uses the AT-ST and the Imperial helmet to deceive the bunker troops into coming out, into an ambush by the combined forces of Rebels and Ewoks which Han has laid.

The Ewoks help the Rebels defeat some of the forces of the Empire in a single ground battle, they do not defeat an entire legion of Imperial troops.

 

Well said Jair Crawford and Merlin_Ambrosius69.

Jair Crawford, the idea of the Ewoks being a prop to lighten the mood before returning to the Emperor's Throne Room scenes never occurred to me. With this thought in mind, I shall view the Battle of Endor in a new light.

Merlin_Ambrosius69, you make an astute observation that the Ewoks only defeated regiments of the Empire, not legions. You also make an important correlation that Chewie and the AT-ST are major factor in turning the tide of the battle. As a writer on IGN said about KOTOR, ROTJ would have been different if the battle of Endor had been on Kashyyyk and there were Wookies instead of Ewoks. However, there was one Wookie and he made all the difference.

 

I tend to not really go with the general thought of the "ranking" of these films. There are times where I say that Return of the Jedi is actually the best, and then a few weeks later I remember Empire in all of its might and I know that it's the best. However, I do think that Return of the Jedi is at least the second best of the trilogy, making it the second best of the entire saga. Here's why:

If we're all going to be honest here, we've all seen these films way too many times. That's part of why some of these sequences in the original trilogy seem tiring. We know what will happen. I will admit that the plan by Luke to free Han was strange, but it was overall a fun sequence (in the original cut, particularly). Many people dislike the stuff with Jabba, not remembering that, at a time, it was "awesome" that they were finally freeing Han. But this Jabba guy, he puts up a real fight. You're on the edge of your seat. And then Luke fights the Rancor! And defeats it. That's how resourceful our hero is. And look at his new look. It's dark and mysterious. It shows how he's grown as a person and a Jedi.

The scenes with Yoda on Dagobah in ROTJ are touching. Seeing Yoda's last words is quite something. The only thing I don't like about this scene on Dagobah is the conversation with Obi-Wan. I still feel like 'ol Ben lied to him intentionally, albeit for a good cause. He seems to be trying to cover that up there. Anyways, that's a discussion for another thread. Let me continue.

As Merlin_Ambrosius69 said, the Ewoks didn't really beat the Empire. Chewie did. Case closed.

The battle between Vader and Luke is amazing. It's the best choreographed fight of the Original Trilogy, and it's the most emotional of the entire saga. To me, that makes it the best duel of the entire series. Opinions, opinions. Luke's rejection of the dark side is admirable, and you grimace as the lightning from Palpatine's fingers strike him. These scenes also make you feel sympathetic for Vader. And when he finally overthrows the Emperor, it's amazing!

A New Hope has some great scenes, but none of them reach the weight of Return of the Jedi. That's why my ranking, for now, is:

The Empire Strikes Back
Return of the Jedi
A New Hope
Revenge of the Sith
The Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones

 

If you read Rinzler's Making of ROTJ, it has Lucas in the summer of '81 mulling over whether to scrap ONE of the major plot story threads of the films. The Jabba stuff was a candidate, and even the Emperor's scenes were up for deletion. Guess what? The Ewok/Endor stuff was hands-off. I think it very telling, imo, that he wouldn't have been willing to give THAT plot element up.

 

Although the Ewok aspect has never really bothered me, I actually think that using Wookiess would of been visually more convincing than the Ewoks.

Is there a reason why they went for Ewoks over Wookiees? Although I realise the answer is probably in the making of ROTJ paperback that I havent read for about 30 years.

To have 3 major scenes going on at the same time (Endor battle, DS2 battle, Emperors throne room) I think was unprecedented at the time. ROTJ really sets a high benchmark in terms of the action going on and it set a template for action films. I look at Temple of Doom a year later and see many similarities in the pacing of the films too.

But I can see why it may be considered the weakest, it sort of pushed aside the characterisation of ESB and went for a more light hearted look overall and of course using another DS isn't too original. But its still a great film that many can't match in terms of its quality.

 

It might have been to maximise the "underdog" factor. Or they figured Ewok toys would sell better than Wookiee ones. There's probably other theories.

 

I'm sure it was easier to find three foot tall children and midgets to fill the ewoks costumes than seven foot tall extras for Wookiee costumes.

 

Return of the Jedi is about Luke and Vader, those aspects are very well done. Add to that the long awaited Emperor and you have a dramatic triangle that is very powerful and stands along the greatest elements and themes of the trilogy.

For me, what suffers is, well . . . everything else. The rest of the characters fo through the motions. Harrison Ford is a really clever guy and I get him when he says his character was better off dead. Not because he was sick of Han Solo but because it was the proper send of to a great space cowboy, the galactic thief with the heart of gold.

Leia? Let's just say she's there to look pretty and be Luke's sister, a forced plot device that never worked for me. Something similar happened to Padme as a character throughout the PT, there was no character really.

The droids, Chewbacca, Lando, etc. They are all just there, they do have their little moments but they are just filler. A second death star attack? It looks amazing, some of the best practical effects I've seen to date but it it recycled and I side with Gary Kurtz in this particular subject.

The ewoks is just cheap kid friendly icing on the cake.

It's a great ride and it deserves it place in the trilogy but it's nowhere near as good as its predecesors.

 

It was a fairly tough ask after the father revelation at the end of TESB. From then on, SW as a whole was basically about Anakin / Vader and his family. Everyone else struggles to find too much relevance.

 

In my eyes, ROTJ is considered the weakest for two reasons:

1) It has pretty stiff competition in ANH and ESB (a movie that changed movie-making forever and arguably the best sequel ever)

and

2) The Ewoks make it lose some of its believability (if there can be such a thing given the movie's premise). I never minded the Ewoks when I was a kid, but the older I get the more I find them to be silly. But they're such a minor part of the overall story that I just try to ignore them.

 

There is some laziness starting to creep in with this film.

The MacGuffin from this film was, or should have been, "the training."

Starting with ESB, "You must complete the training" was The Big Deal in the storyline. It was The new Death Star Plans, the briefcase everybody wanted to get their hands on. Vader says "I will complete your training," and so forth.

Luke opens VI by announcing "I am a Jedi knight," and we're like, huh? Did he complete the training with Yoda between films?

This thought is dispelled after Jabba's Palace. Luke goes back to Dagobah and says "I've come back to complete the training." And Yoda says ... "never mind, you're trained enough." Bleh.

They played it up too much to let it drop like that.

 

It's a great movie in spite of the poor writing. It piggybacks and builds off of ESB's emotional crescendo well.

 

I've been saying that for years. People that complain about the Ewoks tend to focus on the scenes where the Stormtroopers are hit by rocks and not the Ewoks running for their lives before Chewie takes over.

The Ewok battle dates back to the first draft of ANH, when Lucas intended for the Wookiee to take part in the final battle against the Death Star. However, Lucas opted to drop that with the next draft but he wanted the idea of a Wookiee companion with Han, so he retained Chewie and altered him to being more like we know him today. But with that came the idea that Wookiees had to be technologically sound and not mere primitives. When ROTJ rolled around, he revisited his ideas but decided to shrink the Wookiees and rename them Ewoks.

Uh, no it wasn't dropped. Luke calls himself a Jedi because he was trying to impress Jabba, which it doesn't as he laughs at him. Yoda tells Luke that he isn't a Jedi because he hasn't faced his father again, which is his test. His Jedi trial. Only by facing him and the darkness within himself, as shown by his failure in the cave, will he become a Jedi. Hence when he refuses to kill Vader, he realizes what Yoda meant and says that he is a Jedi. He passed the test that was before him.

 

ANH is the weakest of the three, the characters aren't at there most interesting, the plot is so basic the re-watch ability isn't there for me after watching it a million times in my life, the acting isn't the best, the effects are dated and I believe the movie was saved by good editing. Now before you all kill me for saying these things remember the OT is my favorite film of all time its jut that of the three I find ANH to be the weakest and think ROTJ gets hate because it came off of the greatest film ever made ESB.

 

Even worse, regarding ANH, is that they copied the Binary Sunset scene from ROTS. Lazy filmmakers.

 

Y'know, I just sadly realized Leia doesn't crack a joke really at all in ROTJ which is a damn shame because she has some of the funniest lines in ANH and ESB. ("This is some rescue! When you came in here did you have a plan for getting out?" and "I am NOT a committee!")