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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

CT Why is Return Of The Jedi considered the weakest of the originals?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Feelicks, Feb 19, 2013.

  1. Rabs

    Rabs Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 15, 2014
    For me the order goes:
    5
    3
    4
    6
    2
    1
     
  2. mcgo

    mcgo Jedi Knight star 1

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    Oct 22, 2013
    I think the answer to the Jabba sequence problem (and your argument that it was a massacre without justification) is that there was never really any believable sense of existential threat to the heroes. I don't know anyone who really HATES Jabba and his minions, because they're not believable threats. Like you said, they're cartoons. You knew almost immediately in these sequences that Luke's nonsensical plan was going to work because the supposed "villains" of this sequence were jokes, you knew that Han was going to be okay because he was talking BS to Jabba a minute after being defrosted, and you knew that Leia was maybe a little embarrassed but that's about it.

    IMHO it would have taken two changes to make this sequence work and for the problem of this feeling to you like a senseless massacre for a Jedi to engage in to be assuaged (I don't have this problem, really, but I understand your argument). First, Jabba's Palace needs to feel like a place of legitimate darkness and danger where realistically dangerous creatures hang out - a GFFA Taliban hideout that must be destroyed, not a GFFA low-rent Reno casino and (2) When Han is freed from the carbonite he is not only blind but barely alive, and it's understood by Luke/Leia/Lando and the audience that Han isn't going to remain alive for long if they don't get him back to the fleet and a medic who can save him. Those two things happen, we're in a whole different ball game with regard to the stakes in that sequence. If they were destroying something that felt legitimately evil and doing it to because they weren't getting their friend out of there alive otherwise, it would have played entirely differently.
     
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  3. Yanksfan

    Yanksfan Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 3, 2000

    I have actually totally thought about this, and truthfully? The way that whole sequence ends makes me laugh out loud. I mean, jeez, Luke, calm down. Talk about brutal. I mean, he takes out the sand barge in an over-the-top explosion--killing hundreds--and then Lando cheerfully chirps: "We're on our way!!" as if they're now heading off on some happy road trip. Their carefree indifference to the mass murder they just committed literally makes me laugh. But you know, I don't think it's supposed to….

    Also, not really a "ROTJ" flaw, but have you ever noticed our "good-guy Rebels" never set for stun? Ha ha, they're always just like "**** it, kill them all." It's kinda funny….
     
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  4. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

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    Nov 12, 2012
    Jabba was going to feed them alive, on multiple occasions, while everyone watched and cackled. Don't think there was much room to set for stun. Luke even gives him a "Jabba, this is your last chance; free us, or die." ultimatum so there was an out provided. And Jabba laughed. I don't find Jabba and his croonies to be threat-free cartoons, I think they're shown as generally sadistic and malicious. Hell, even the freakin' droid pit boss guy is! The only one with an inclination of humanity is the Rancor keeper. Everybody loves somebody.
     
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  5. mcgo

    mcgo Jedi Knight star 1

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    Oct 22, 2013
    But did you believe for a second that any of the heroes was actually in jeopardy here? That anyone major in the film was actually possibly going to die or at least seriously harmed in this sequence? I didn't, not for a second, which is why - for me, anyway -- this sequence doesn't work.
     
  6. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

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    Nov 12, 2012
    I think, tonally, you aren't supposed to buy into the fact they're in deadly peril, it's too early on in the movie for that and nobody is fighting Vader or the Empire where mortal peril comes into play. But I think the movie is trying to make Jabba's cronies nasty and malicious, a real sort of hissable scum, and you're cheering for the heroes to overcome them, which it succeeds. As nasty as the Jabba and his goons are are, tonally it's more of a self-contained adventure segment in the film, kind of like the asteroid chase scene in ESB. I don't buy anybody is gonna die in either of those scenes, but it does up the stakes to where you want to see how the heroes get out of it.

    And I do think the Jabba's sequence rather excellently keeps throwing roadblocks at Our Heroes throughout. First Artoo and Threepio seem to be abandoned, then Leia gets captured, then Luke almost gets eaten, then they almost all get eaten. While the bag guy laughs. You do not like this Jabba guy, or the people who are around them, and this just Keep Going Wrong. Which makes Luke's catch-the-lightsaber moment cheer worthy, they finally had something go right!
     
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  7. mcgo

    mcgo Jedi Knight star 1

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    Oct 22, 2013
    Yeah, we just disagree. I think if they're not in deadly peril from the very beginning of Jedi -- since it was picking up on the cliffhanger ending of Empire -- that's just too big a letdown and the wrong tone.
    And I think Jedi was therefore full of "wrong tone." Actually, I think nearly every second in Jedi was "wrong tone" except the Luke/Vader/Emperor scenes on the Death Star.
     
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  8. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 20, 2012
    It's the SW film I've seen the least sadly.
     
  9. sarlaccsaurs-rex

    sarlaccsaurs-rex Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 10, 2007
    As much as I LOVE LOVE LOVE Jabba and Palpy, they both come across as super over the top skelator/Cobra Commander villians. They lack the subtly of Vader/Tarkin/ESB Fett.
     
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  10. Deltron3030

    Deltron3030 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jul 22, 2014
    ROTJ had the feel of coming up short because of:

    recycled Death Star plot
    Ewoks
    Han is a complete wimp
    Vader is a complete wimp
    Boba Fett's punk demise

    I understand the character arcs... I like Luke's maturity although his willingness to die disturbs me. But Han and Vader's arcs go 180 degrees out of phase with what we loved about their characters. We saw Vader murdering his own officers in the last movie and now he's a mopey, wistful old man. Han had his swashbuckling removed and now he's a beaten accountant. And teddy bears take out Stormtroopers? Really?

    That part didn't bother me. We saw Luke built his own light saber from scratch, it's a logical leap to conclude Luke trained himself, however he did that... Communing with Jedi spirits, holocrons, meditation, whatever. In fact I would have preferred to see some of that or at least some mention of it, that Luke had found another path to completing his training that lead him to follow a different path than Obi-Wan and Yoda had set him on. Remember, they were training him to kill Vader.
     
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  11. AndyLGR

    AndyLGR Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 1, 2014
    Just to give it a bit of perspective [face_peace] I know we are all super critical as big fans and I know Jedi has its issues. But just look at the sci-fi genre as a whole and some of the films released since the original SW came out and in the grand scheme of things ROTJ is one of the best sci-fi films ever made. Most people would have given their right arm to have made a film this good and influential. [face_not_talking]
     
  12. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Some things got cut. Vader choking an officer when the officer stops him from going into the Emperor's throne room, for example.

    In the novel, Vader comes across as much less mopey and wistful in the scene on the Endor landing platform.
     
  13. Ditolus

    Ditolus Jedi Grand Master star 2

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    Jan 22, 2005
    btw how do ewoks procreate? i dont see genitalia on them in return of the jedi. whats their biology?
     
  14. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    They probably have thick enough fur that it's hard to spot (in-universe reason)

    Out of universe reason - because Lucas chose not to model them on the suits.

    Same arguments could be levelled at Wookiees.
     
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  15. NATIONALGREATNESS

    NATIONALGREATNESS Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 24, 2006
    Good points. Having said that, I respectfully disagree with part of your first point. Yes, the 'villains' were stupid and laughable, and not really all that threatening. At the same time, however, they were genuinely disgusting and loathsome. They were literally a group of sadistic sociopaths who got a kick out of torturing and killing people, and pretty much nothing else. Which, in itself, could have been rather disturbing, as opposed to annoying...if they were also threatening and actually scary. Which they aren't, unfortunately.

    In any story featuring a very large, moderately large or even small group of psychopathic/sociopathic sadists, said sadists have to be legitimately threatening in order to be truly frightening to the viewer. Take any number of 70's horror films as examples here. Instead, Jabba the obese alien slug and crime lord, and his 'mob' of ugly, 'evilly laughing' aliens (such a stupid hamfisted cliche as well, everyone who is 'bad' must laugh evilly! Ohohohoho! Yeah...and really it's just so cheesy and childish that no adult could take it seriously) aren't really threatening at all. The scenes with the droids being 'tortured' (which in itself is rather silly) was actually played for laughs, and so were a lot of the other scenes. There is literally no point to any of this, unless it is supposed to be some kind of wacky comedy, which would only make it fit even more poorly with the rest of the film.

    All it ends up showcasing in the end is: 1. Luke is actually highly disciplined and powerful now, not to mention extremely ruthless - something the film doesn't even acknowledge as it paints the 'villains' as faceless mooks who are 'evil for the sake of being evil' and so we can't feel any sympathy for them; and 2. That the rebels are perfectly capable of turning into out and out vigilantes, killing a large number of people - admittedly, gangsters - in cold blood simply because they were being threatened. But none of that is touched on AT ALL. Good and evil are black and white on a canvas. Nothing the heroes do here is unjustifiable because they're good, period, and that's all there is to it, which is about as childish as you can get. Shades of grey are rendered non-existent, and the fact that a Jedi killed his enemies so ruthlessly is neither mentioned nor even considered slightly important. It's like one of those big action films where the hero kills loads of 'bad guys' in a cartoony manner, except even more stupid. Another reason why ROTJ at its worst is little more than a kids' cartoon.

    In short: The entire first portion of the film on Tatooine is, IMO, utterly superfluous. In-universe, it exists because Lucas and co evidently felt the audience needed to see Han being rescued, as opposed to it happening off screen. Of course, it didn't need to take roughly forty minutes of the film up, leaving very little time for the rest of the genuinely important stuff, but that's what they filmed.

    And the actual reason? Yes, one could argue that showing Han's rescue was important. In the end, though, it just serves to eat up screen time, making it easier for the filmmakers to spend less time focusing on the more important things - the things that require more talent and dedication to actually make work. Because of this, we got a film in which good and evil only ever go beyond pure black & white in the scenes with Luke, Vader and the Emperor, in which the most feared and powerful fighting force in the galaxy is defeated by petty rebels and teddy bears, in which the actual villains (the Empire) are unbelievably incompetent to the point that half the time they don't even seem capable of defending themselves, and in which events that should be impossible (the Empire's supposed 'defeat' at the battle of Endor, in which they lose by doing nothing) actually happen - not due to mystical occurrences, but because the screenwriters and filmmakers were lazy and obviously didn't know how to have the heroes win in a believable manner.

    For these reasons, to me ROTJ is the only Star Wars film which ends up being almost purely acceptable only as a kids' film, and little else. Just my opinion, of course. :)
     
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  16. There_Are_Four_Lights

    There_Are_Four_Lights Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Apr 30, 2014
    Did not like that Vader 'could' come back from the other side. Yoda was so adamant that it could not happen.
     
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  17. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Just because Yoda is very knowledgeable in the Force doesn't make him omniscient.
     
  18. Deltron3030

    Deltron3030 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jul 22, 2014

    All true... But they blew us away with Empire, totally stepped up their game and didn't take the easy way out or recycle the same plot. Then they turned around and did the opposite and fell back down to Earth in Jedi.



    That's what I liked the most. That Yoda and Obi-Wan were wrong. Never say never -- Luke found a way.
     
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  19. Faithful Wookiee

    Faithful Wookiee Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 29, 2014
    I was eight years old when Star Wars was released, and instantly felt like the film (and its more introspective sequel, which I saw at eleven) was made specifically for me. Pure inspiration.

    But when I saw ROTJ at fourteen, I felt that I was no longer part of the franchise's target demographic. Maybe the problem is that the moviemakers were too eager to hold on to younger audiences -- rather than "grow the saga up" along with the moviegoers that first got on board back in '77, the intent seems, instead, to have been to increase the amount of cute or scary monsters, amp up the star battles, and make the brand even more marketable than ever before. As a result, character development and resolutions occur almost as afterthoughts, the storytelling becomes sloppy and dull, and the saga takes a qualitative step back, rather than moving forward.

    The film almost feels cynical.
     
  20. SimitarLikeTusk

    SimitarLikeTusk Jedi Knight star 3

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    Mar 10, 2014
    The film isn't cynical, the fans have become that way. Never had a problem with Jedi or the Ewoks, it was in fact my favorite one. Only more recently have I heard of this general criticism and it seems to be born purely out of nerds obsessing on behind the scenes shenanigans rather than any way the film is in way quality or tonally different.
     
  21. NATIONALGREATNESS

    NATIONALGREATNESS Jedi Master star 1

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    Dec 24, 2006
    Interesting point, however I would have to disagree. While it might seem as simple as fans obsessing about behind the scenes stuff, it's actually based a lot more on how things actually occur on screen. The end battle, with the exception of the Luke/Vader/Emperor conflict (and even that has some problems) is completely unbelievable. It makes the Empire, until now the most feared and powerful fighting force in the galaxy, into buffoons. How is that not a problem? That isn't cynicism at all - for me, it's that I wanted to be emotionally invested in a plausible final battle in which the good guys win believably. Apart from Luke defeating the dark side aboard the death star, we didn't get that.

    What did we get? We got stormtroopers, the most powerful and well trained soldiers in the galaxy, losing a battle to a raggedy group of rebels (who were also outnumbered, making it even more implausible), and to little furry creatures with spears and bows and arrows. The Empire simply would not have lost this battle. That they did turns them into a joke. And in a film we are supposed to take mostly seriously, if your villains become completely non-threatening and stupid, it instead turns the film into a comedy. Was ROTJ supposed to be like this? Somehow I doubt it. And above in space, we got the rebel fleet, who were even acknowledged on-screen as being no match for the Imperial Fleet, somehow surviving the battle and actually doing well until the death star is destroyed...after which point the battle is apparently over. How does any of that make sense? Fans actually had to fill in gaps here to explain what happened to the Imperial Fleet, because it's made so unclear on screen that it's almost an afterthought. Nothing so unbelievable and half-baked happened in any single battle in the rest of the saga.
     
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  22. SimitarLikeTusk

    SimitarLikeTusk Jedi Knight star 3

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    Mar 10, 2014
    Yes I can see you are expressing the well-worn arguments of someone who did have a problem with the Ewoks, but anyone who has seen the movies wouldnt call Stromtroopers "the most powerful and well trained soldiers in the galaxy". Is the Ewoks defeating the troops any more convenient than the trio avoiding getting shot by the entire fleet on the Death Star in New Hope? And wasnt that kinda the point? That it was unlikey the primitive underdogs could defeat the Empire troops yet cause they were underestimated they could? Empowerment. Themes. David vs Goliath. That kind of thing. Obviously intentional.
     
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  23. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    There's also the whole "Vietnam War inspiration" thing.
     
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  24. CommanderDrenn

    CommanderDrenn Jedi Knight star 4

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    Oct 19, 2013
    Yes, but David's defeat of Goliath actually makes sense. The EWOKS vs. Stormtroopers is almost completely illogical and played for laughs. Why would a rock the size of a fist knock someone out wearing armor? I'm not all for hyper-realistic scenes in Star Wars, but the Endor scene really crosses the line.
     
  25. NATIONALGREATNESS

    NATIONALGREATNESS Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 24, 2006
    QFT. This 100%. That is exactly the problem - hyper-realism isn't necessary, but effectively, what should be the crucial battle of the galactic civil war is actually played for laughs. Seriously. And IMO, it was a stupid decision when Lucas wrote it, it was dumb when it was included in the film, and it will always remain dumb. It makes a mockery of the conclusion to the saga. And that is the reason why ROTJ is the weakest of all the Star Wars films for me - because it plays the crucial battle of the galactic civil war for laughs, and drags everything down into a slapstick comedy where 'a legion of the Emperor's best troops' is defeated by smart but completely outgunned and outnumbered rebels and teddy bears. Comedy moments in serious scenes are fine. But, crucially, the actual battle itself should never be a farce in a Star Wars film. It's worse than a farce - it's sheer incompetency on the part of the filmmakers. They couldn't think of a way for the rebels to win, so they just had the Empire act like idiots.

    And is there a single other instance where this happens in any other battle in any of the other five films? Absolutely not. Whether good or evil wins in the other films, there is no occasion in which one side wins due to the other side being incompetent and not fighting back properly.

    SimitarLikeTusk, I understand your perspective, but underestimation isn't the real reason why the Empire lost, either on Endor or in the battle above in space. They lost because they weren't even fighting properly.

    No matter how arrogant a military commander is, as soon as they realise their foe is a legitimate threat, they would stop screwing around, which in the Empire's case should have meant going in for the kill. On the surface, they should have used the maximum firepower settings of AT-AT's to disintegrate the forest and kill all the rebels and ewoks. It was clear they had AT-AT's because we saw one when Luke got captured, so why not use them from a distance to just blow up the forests? Above, as soon as the Rebel Fleet engaged at 'point blank range', the Imperial Fleet would not have sat there like ducks - they would have attacked full on. This nonsense about Admiral Piett having orders from the Emperor 'only to prevent them from escaping' did not mean just to sit there like ducks and get defeated by an inferior force. That was when the rebels were further away and the death star was destroying them. Presumably, the reason the death star stopped firing once the rebel cruisers moved in closer was because they didn't want to risk hitting their own (Imperial) ships. And at that point, Piett, who was not an idiot, would have seen the Emperor's plan had backfired and would have been well within his rights to move in and pulverise the rebels.

    Hell, even if they hadn't all engaged, Ackbar insisted that the Star Destroyers were more powerful anyway. So how come they didn't beat the rebel cruisers even when fighting one on one (as opposed to en-masse)? Seriously, the filmmakers just ignored their own rules and must have said something like: "Hey, the good guys have to win, so let's just pretend they somehow managed to stand up to the Imperial fleet long enough for Lando and co to destroy the death star...and let's just pretend that at that point the Imperial fleet retreated". Yeah, but no. The original point still stands: what reason was there for the Imperial Fleet not to have engaged and utterly annihilated the rebels once the rebel cruisers moved in? What reason was there for the Imperial Troops on the surface not to have resorted to more extreme measures, once they realised the rebels and the ewoks were (somehow) a reasonable and potent threat? None of the battle of Endor either on the surface or in space is remotely credible. The rebels should have lost, period.

    Of course, there is always going to be a problem when you create a hyper powerful fighting force who should be almost unbeatable. It's hard to see how they could ever have made that realistic. There should have been a way, but the filmmakers obviously couldn't think of one.

    Such a missed opportunity.
     
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