CT Why is Return Of The Jedi considered the weakest of the originals?

I think that another super weapon could have been developed instead of rehashing the Death Star. Perhaps something like the early Galaxy Gun or Tarkin could have been under construction in secret and targeted by the Rebel Alliance instead.

 

I think for me the things I find weakest about the film are:

1. Re-doing the deathstar stuff again. For me that just felt like re-hashing a previous story. I tried to love it because I loved Star Wars so much, but I felt sad inside when they did the same thing again. I felt really really let down by that.
2. Generally I think the ewoks were cute and I enjoyed the first encounter between Leia and Wicket and the business with C3PO but I wish they had a slightly darker or smarter or more fericious or more technical side because I couldn't really see them defeating the Empire in even in a single skirmish (I was a very literal and scientific kid at the time.) I think what would've been good is if the ewoks were there and were just as they are but they joined forces with another species who were more technical and militarily able.
3. I was also kind of put off by the way Luke was written.

That said, the things I loved were:

1. Jabba's Palace - I really liked that - all the aliens and the rancor (still my favourite SW beast). I even liked the digital make over of the band scene.
2. Leia rescuing Han and Han being blind and then shooting the Sarlac to free Lando - classically funny!
3. Jabba's sail barge was brilliant too.
4. The death of Yoda was sad and poinant.
5. The finaly battle between Luke, Vader and Palpatine and Vader's redemption. (For me, having seen the PT makes this even more forceful when I watch it now.)

 

Why? The Death Star was perfect and the issues resolved during the construction of the second one. There's no need to create a different weapon when simply fixing the exhaust port cover would suffice.

 

I get what you're saying - it does make sense logically to have a second death star - but I would have preferred something new and different too. It would have added another dimension to the film and rounded off the trilogy a bit better from my point of view. Having two death stars feels to me like it might feel if the plot in 'Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade' was about going to rescue the Ark of the Covenant again. You could easily make it fit logically and make a story about it but why do the same thing twice?

 

Initially, Lucas wanted the attack to center around taking out the Executor, but he felt that it didn't have the impact that he wanted. He wanted to make a statement that the Empire was going to be destroyed in ROTJ. So a different approach that was discussed was to end with a carpet bombing of Had Abbadon. But this had other issues that resulted in it being abandoned. Finally, Lucas decided to shift the focus to two Death Stars and then just one. The Death Star was used as a lure for the Alliance and to set up the battle with the Imperial fleet, as well as a ground battle. Destroying the Death Star II would have the impact of saying, "The Empire is finished".

 

Instead of the Executor, it might have been easier for them to take out the Emperor's personal Star Destroyer while in orbit somewhere else. It could just be in a secret location like the second Death Star was.

 

darth-sinister Thanks for that - it really helps sometimes to understand the background to these decisions. much appreciated. I must admit, the executor did really impress me, especially when seen to scale with regular star destroyers, but I understand where they were coming from, it would have needed some kind of super weapon to really make it work and have impact. I think a new gravitic drive which could collapse a star system would have been fab but that's really a NJO 'Vong' idea which wasn't born then.

 

The Executor was Palpatine's personal Star Destroyer. That's why it is called the Executor and why when Vader arrives at Endor, he's aboard the Devastator and Palpatine arrives via the Executor. Vader only used it in TESB as it was also the flagship of the Imperial fleet and Palpatine had no plans to leave Coruscant.

 

Mostly Ewoks. cute, little, furry, anthromorphic Ewoks.

They were almost the Jar Jar of their day.

 

I honestly, have no idea.

How could anyone not love this moment?

 

Very good movie but here are my issues with it:

- Seems like a lazy film. Going back to Tatooine? We'll just shoot in Arizona. Need a new planet location? Let's just make it a "forest moon" & shoot in our backyard in northern Cali.

- On a similar theme, the rehash of the Death Star which so many have pointed out. It's now gone down as a catchphrase for other rehashed plot ideas, eg "that seems a little bit Death Star 2.0".

- Harrison Ford seems bored throughout the movie. He's just going through the motions. Almost every line is delivered with a smirk. Maybe it's because he doesn't have anything significant to do. Any nameless Rebel officer could've fulfilled his role. In ANH & ESB he impacted the story more & in a more individual unique way.

- Fisher seemed a bit lifeless too, at least post Tatooine. What they do with her character on Endor sucks. So she was captured by Jabba & put in a slave outfit. Ok cool, that was all awesome. But then 20 mins later what happens? She's captured by teddy bears & dressed up again, this time in Ewok rags. WTH? It undermines her strength to be held by these muppets & again used as a dress up doll. Yes I know she passed out but it just looks bad.

- Endor: Almost nothing good happens there. The whole thing doesn't work. Only scene I like is Luke taking out the speeder with his sabre & the Vader & Luke scene, which could've been in any Imperial facility really.

-Endor part 2: Again, laziness. Was going to be a Wookie planet. How good would that have been? A Wookie army defeating the Imperials, now that makes sense. But...too hard to find enough 7ft tall men so we'll just get a bunch of midgets.

- Love everything on Tatooine & the Death Star. Only exception is that one moment where Luke is attacking Vader near the end of their fight & Vader awkwardly kneels down against the railing. Was poorly done. Would've been better to have Luke strike him & knock him down. Then their whole fight would've been perfect.

- Humor. This is where it began. The beginning of the silly childish humor. The burping frog, burping sarlacc, Ewok slapstick, Tarzan Chewie. Unfortunately Lucas started it here & then ramped it up in the next movie.

All in all I get the feeling Lucas was a bit over the whole thing by this time. He had other more pressing issues in his life & some of Jedi seems rushed & underdeveloped. Still so much awesome though. I could list 100 things that really worked.

 

What's wrong with shooting in Arizona? Same with northern California? Why do they have to go to another country?

Except it wasn't lazy. It was the end result of Lucas wanting to put a stamp on saying that the Empire was gone. This was after ruling out carpet bombing Had Abbadon, essentially killing a lot of potential civilians. Destroying the Executor also didn't have that same impact. Hence having a second Death Star.

He was bored because he didn't want to do ROTJ and only did so out of loyalty to Lucas.

In terms of performance, she was stoned out of her mind. In general, she was held against her will by Jabba. But with the Ewoks, she went willingly and wasn't a prisoner, but their guest. Hence they're not trying to barbecue her like they were with the others. As to her change of outfit, that was just to have a different outfit change like in TESB.

- Endor: Almost nothing good happens there. The whole thing doesn't work. Only scene I like is Luke taking out the speeder with his sabre & the Vader & Luke scene, which could've been in any Imperial facility really.

No, it had to do with Lucas wanting the Empire to be defeated by primitives and that couldn't work with the Wookiees who were made advanced due to Chewbacca. There was plenty of tall men that could fill the roles in 1982. He opted to go short as it was the opposite of what one would expect and it fit in with, "Size matters not, judge me by my size do you?" As it is, the Imperials on Endor are only beaten thanks to Chewbacca taking control of an AT-ST which quickly dispatches the Stormtroopers and Imperial officers.

That's due to the suit.

 

Jabba lived on Tatooine. Common sense dictated that they'd have to go there to rescue Han.

As I said before in this very thread, if you can improve your Ultimate Weapon, that was already successful in the past, why wouldn't you attempt to create it again?

Ford doesn't seem bored to me. He's still got the most 'fun' role as wiseguy & ladies man. The thing is he already "got the girl" at this point in the audience's mind (since we know Leia is Luke's sister) so there's no real romantic tension that seemed to awe people in Empire.

She wasn't captured by the Ewoks. She went to the village willingly, and was treated like a guest.

None of those things seemed like blatant knee-slapping material. (Maybe some of the minor Ewok slapstick) It was the typical light touches that balance some of the heavier themes in the Saga.

 

Yup, the slapstick serves as an introduction for the whole idea about a species being all but ignored for 25 000 years and there are random moments people don't even think of because of the typical young adult male with an informed opinion POV.

E.g. Han Solo was a couple of seconds away from being a merciless killer at 1:09:30. And it's not a coincidence.

 

Only film out of 5 that didn't bother going to Tunisia. Not a big deal, just adds to my feeling of a lazy production.

Of all the creative inventive things they could come up with...another Death Star & another starfighter attack on one??

Whatever, he looked bored so that's a flaw in the movie.

Why would she be just hangin out with the Ewoks in the trees braiding her hair when there's a damn mission to get back to? When she walks out of the hut one of them points a staff at her. It seems that she is being held. Either way it's ridiculous.

Nonsense. He wanted Wookies, it was in his drafts of the script. It was logistically too difficult. Could've had all of the same themes of natives vs the Empire but way cooler.

Huh? He was uninjured at the time. He just knelt down & then blocked Luke with one hand while crouching. It looks weird & an unlikely thing to do. Luke knocking him down would've worked.

 

Lucas's own comments on the subject, back in 1983:

 

ROTJ drafts all feature Ewoks. Wookiees in the script were abandoned by 1980 or so.

 

If I recall, Luke was using the Dark Side. Watch the scene again. He's no longer acting like a Jedi, but a man who is savagely beating down on his opponent without pause. He's also 23 years old and not hooked up to a life support system. Vader's kneeling down because Luke battered him to his knees and was currently beating away like a deranged lunatic. Vader was just trying to hold on until Luke managed to cut his hand off.

 

I like how when people are asked about why they hate ROTJ, they say two things: Jedi Rocks and Ewoks.

I don't really understand how a 50-second musical number can make you hate an entire film but whatever. And then Ewoks are just a matter of opinion. I don't mind them.

 

I love the film, but Jedi Rocks is annoying. Lapti Nek was quite a number and strange, raw singing adds to the unique feel of the entire film.

 

I just came to say that there are many people who only like SW and ESB from the bunch of movies in the OT and they don't really consider ROTJ as 'canon' .
Huh ... wow .
( I'm pretty sure TFA will redeem Star Wars as a whole for them ... )

 

If that was the situation they were going for it was poorly choreographed. Yes Luke was in rage but at this point he had not delivered a single blow to Vader. Vader was uninjured. By crouching down Vader made himself even more vulnerable to injury & defeat. It just would've worked so much better if Luke had physically knocked Vader down.

 

I thought Luke had clipped Vader's leg at some point during the "under the catwalks" dark shot, and it had finally given way. The novelization of the movie portrays Vader as having been injured in the leg, as I recall.

 

Not really. Lucas went back to Tunisia for TPM and AOTC, because he was revisiting the set locations for the moisture farm which only exists over there. Likewise, he used many of the same or similar locations to make Mos Espa. It made sense to go back there. None of those locations are in ROTJ. The script called for the cave where Luke is building his Lightsaber and the Millennium Falcon and Luke's X-Wing are. The exterior shots leading to Jabba's palace and then the Dune Sea where the Sarlacc was. Those shots could be achieved by filming in Death Valley, California and in the desert regions of Arizona. That's why Lucas filmed there. Now, if Obi-wan's hovel was important to where our heroes were hiding at, then Lucas would have justified shooting in Tunisia. Same with a trip to Mos Eisley.

That's not laziness. That's practicality. A lot of movies and television shows will substitute other locations either due to production costs, or because they don't need actual location shots.

The Death Star was cheaper and easier to recreate, than building Had Abbadon which was to look like Coruscant. Something Lucas couldn't do very well at the time. The space battle was necessary since it was called "Star Wars". The fighter attack was the way if it was the Executor.

And he'll look bored in the new film.

She stayed with the Ewoks because she doesn't know which direction to go to find the strike team. She cannot use her comlink as it would be monitored and she'd wind up lost trying to find the others. She went with Wicket because it was better than standing around doing nothing. The spear being pointed at her was to keep her back from the others.

It was in the first draft of ANH. But Wookiees were primitive. They couldn't really fly a spaceship. According to Lucas, he wasn't sure if he could get the Wookiee battle in the film, so he dropped it. But he loved the idea of Chewbacca, which is why he rewrote the character and the species as being technologically advanced. This was then demonstrated in "The Holiday Special" and remained consistent since. With the Ewoks, he could have the primitive factor and work it organically into the story.

The suit restricts movement, not just for the character, but the person inside of it. Bob Anderson could only drop down to one knee and held himself up the way he did. He held it with one hand because that was the hand that was going to be severed. He and Peter Diamond knew full well how to make the fight work and followed the same guidelines they've used in multiple films and television ventures that they worked on.

Wookiees were dropped in 1975. The rough draft and the revised rough draft featured Ewoks and were dated at 1980-81.

In the film, when Vader ducks over to his right, he loses balance and has to hold himself up with the railing and Luke starts pummeling him. Luke never gets him in the leg.

 

I'd sort of like to see a mix of ROTJ and DE1 on Coruscant.
The rebels trying to free Coruscant, Luke and Leia, Vader and Palpatine on the Executor in space, Palpatine creates a Force Storm, and Luke, Leia and Anakin turn the storm back on Palpatine, killing him and destroying the ship and ending the war.