CT Why is Return Of The Jedi considered the weakest of the originals?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Feelicks, Feb 19, 2013.

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  1. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    Eggrert: With one or two exceptions, you're the only poster who shares my distaste for the Throne Room scenes. Bereft of the aesthetic beauty and primal force that powered the ESB duel, or the philosophical intrigue lending weight to the Palpatine/Anakin ROTS exchanges, there's nothing that resonates. What we're treated to are variations of a simplistic lure...

    "I can feel your anger."
    "No."
    "Your hatred swells."
    "No."
    "It is your destiny."
    "No."
    "C'mon, get mad."
    "No."

    The only way Lucas could have drawn genuine suspense out of this is if his hero was flawed, but ROTJ Luke is the veritable White Knight, intent on redeeming his father. Which is fine, thematically, but not so good for drama.
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  2. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    Unlike in EP V, Vader was already having conflict within him, he didn't fully want Luke to fall to the Dark Side, so he wasn't doing the same thing as EP V.

    Actually EP VI is the most not black-white episode of OT.
  3. Eggrert Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2005
    star 1
    While this is true, I think it would have been more effective if they had admitted their error instead of insisting that they were still right ("From a certain point of view," "No! Unfortunate that you rushed to face him!"). As the movie currently stands, they both lose a lot of credibility, and it's not because they was wrong. We (and Luke) could have forgiven that, and it would have added a tragic dimension to those characters. Right now, it seems as if Yoda and Obi-Wan failed to learn their lesson from the prequels.

    ...see, I actually think that the PT made Yoda's and Obi-Wan's bullheadedness in Jedi all the more of a liability. Like I said before, it appears as if they still haven't learned their lesson.

    Agreed. Leia simply should not have been "the other." It's just too neat and tidy. Forget the "incest," forget the "somehow I've always known"...it's a hokey "twist" that adds nothing to the saga.

    But then, I think this is symptomatic of Jedi's larger flaws...for the most part, instead of character development we get character regression.



    I tend to agree. There are moments when Luke seems as if he's going to give into frustration and take the "easy way out," but then they're invariably interrupted by the Emperor, whose spiel doesn't make any sense.

    "Come on, boy! Turn to the dark side!" Err...sure, dude. There was no way Luke was going to turn based on the Emperor's verbal prompting.

    ...but then, at the end, when the Emperor's unleashing his trademark Force Lightning, he says something along the lines of "Young fool...only now do you recognize the power of the dark side." And then he adds, "And now, young Skywalker, you will die."

    WHAT THE HECK?!?!?! If there's a single moment during the throne room scene that Luke is going to turn, this is it!!! He's clearly been defeated, he's about to die, he surely has to be having doubts about what Yoda told him in ESB ("Is the dark side stronger?" "No! No.")...this is the only moment when I can seriously see Luke turning to the dark side, and the Emperor doesn't do anything about it.

    Maybe the idea is to show how blinded he is by the dark side...I don't know. But considering his manipulations throughout the rest of the saga, I just can't buy that.
    Last edited by Eggrert, Feb 26, 2013
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  4. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Luke's told him "I'll never turn to the Dark Side"- and gone out of his way to prove it- The Emperor has simply given up trying.
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  5. Eggrert Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2005
    star 1
    ...in that case, the Emperor's whole "Young fool" speech just comes across as standard bad-guy talk (c.f. James Bond). Either way, it doesn't really work.

    (And I'd argue that Luke didn't exactly "go out of his way to prove it." All he did was throw aside his lightsaber, and in theory, he could have retrieved it using the Force.)
  6. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Why is it considered the weakest, well in bullet points
    • Another Death Star, which this time you can fly whole ships in
    • Ewoks nuff said
    • Pointless inclusion of Han Solo, he was not needed and from a character arc perspective he was done.
    • Harrison Ford who makes it obvious he is only there just to full fill contractual obligations.
    • Lots of fluff and filler in the script
    • Making Luke and Leia brother and sister [face_sick]
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  7. Chainmail_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2013
    star 2
    one reason; Ewoks.

    That alone almost makes them as awful and mind rotting as the prequels to me.
  8. Eggrert Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2005
    star 1
    This is true as far as the character as presented in ROTJ goes; if you instead use the "Han sacrifices himself for the Rebellion during an assault on the Empire" arc, it makes the character far richer and completes his "arc" far more satisfactorily.

    I'm gonna postulate that even if you replaced the Ewoks with Wookies, you would still be left with a horrible, soulless film. In fact, its flaws might be even more noticeable without the Ewoks there as scapegoats/whipping boys.
  9. Chainmail_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2013
    star 2
    nah, Ewoks are one of the biggest gripes casual viewers have about the movie. The other stuff is just too much scrutinizing. Taking out Ewoks is like taking Stalin out of the Soviet Union in the 50s. Yeah there are still problems but you just got rid of the biggest one.
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  10. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    But the character development of Luke and Vader still made it a great finale.
  11. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Yes the Luke and Vader scene's are fantastic, with some iconic images and scene's (Vaders unmasking) great acting on Prowse part, I mean I have never seen a black mask seem so conflicted and of course James Earl Jones wonderful voice inflection's. They basically stop the film from being a washout.
  12. Lord Chazza Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2013
    star 4
    But, but, but... I enjoyed ROTJ! Sure there are a few problems but personally I thought it was a fairly decent film, certainly better than the prequels. Where's all this hatred come from? I admit that the teddy bears beating the finest Imperial soldiers is a hard story to swallow but apart from that I thought it was pretty much ok.
  13. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    I'll take six foot tall amphibians with plasma bombs as a legitimate threat over stuffed teddy bears.
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  14. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    Then why did we have his ferocious beatdown of Vader after Luke snapped? He certainly wasn't infallible, but Luke stared into the Abyss and rejected it. He nearly fell, but finally threw away his lightsaber in one last act of defiance.
  15. Eggrert Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2005
    star 1
    Any power that that scene has is severely undercut by the Emperor's not-so-convincing attempt at encouraging Luke to turn:

    ...if he had just shut up and let Luke go on with it, Luke may well have killed Vader. Instead, we get a clumsy "turn" attempt that is only marginally better than Dooku's non-temptation of Obi-Wan in AOTC.


    [IMG]

    Stuffed teddy bears armed with twigs, no less!
  16. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Another reason (for me anyway) was the Locations, In ANH we had Tatoonie, in ESB we had Hoth, they really gave a feel of different worlds, by RTJ we were back on Tatoonie (again!) and Endor just didn't give off that vibe, it felt like Earth
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  17. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    Thanks to Palpatine's big mouth.
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  18. Grievousdude Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2013
    star 3
    I don't know why it is considered to be weak. I love the battle at the Sarlacc pit.
  19. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    Most would say it is the weakest of the OT for two reasons:

    • Recycled plot. Death Star. Again. I think Empire blew people away because it didn't stick to the formula established in ANH, it set the story on its ear. Then Jedi goes back to the Death Star plot.
    • Ewoks. The Empire is taken down by teddy bears.
    Last edited by janstett, Feb 28, 2013
  20. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4

    the ewoks won their battle , the Gungans lost theirs , even with all those giant beach balls .
  21. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    yeah , this was always a weakness for me too ANH had Tatooine and the DS , ESB had Hoth , Bespin and Dagobah , all very other-worldly and well realised , Endor just looked like a forest on earth .
    fett 4 likes this.
  22. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Missing the point. The fact that the Ewoks, teddy bears with bows and sticks, defeated "the Empire's best troops" only makes it more unbelievable.
    Last edited by Alexrd, Mar 1, 2013
  23. TheDarkSyde Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 2013
    Because of Jabba The Hutt.
  24. LandoThe CapeCalrissian Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 3
    Jedi was always my favorite as a kid.

    I cant see whats not to like about Jedi. Jabba's palace scene is worth the price of admission alone.
    lbr789 likes this.
  25. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    I don't like them but they had rather more than bows and sticks .
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