CT Why is Return Of The Jedi considered the weakest of the originals?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Feelicks, Feb 19, 2013.

  1. The Supreme Chancellor Force Ghost

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    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Right up until the reveal to Anakin. I feel like after that he just went overboard with the evil genius act.
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  2. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    OT Palpatine is a typical evil monster kind of character, with evil intention and overconfidence.

    PT showed his manipulation, his disguise, switch from two different egos, this made him more charming and even more sinister than the OT monster. The only flaw is it's a bit over the top after the deformation but OT Palpatine also has such problem.
  3. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Palpatine at his simplest in the OT was much more entertaining than PT Palpatine. Pity they didn't include more from the ROTJ novelization. That was pure gold. PT Palpatine manipulating the stuffing out of everyone was great but Palpatine unleashed in the OT was better than Palpatine unleashed in the PT.
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  4. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

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    Sep 21, 2012
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    Well no, his disguise in PT added more elements, even made his true face, his OT elements more sinister.

    A villain stand before you saying "I AM GOING TO TURN YOU TO THE DARK SIDE" is much less terrifying than a villain who put a handsome mask as disguise, manipulate people from many years ago and try to be the nicest guy until the time to reveal.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, Jun 5, 2013
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  5. Force Smuggler Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    Anakin's fall was all the more tragic because of that but Luke going toe to toe against Palpatine who had corrupted his father and wondering if Luke would be able to overcome Palpatine's manipulations or fall like Anakin did is better imo.
  6. Visivious Drakarn Jedi Grand Master

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    Apr 20, 2013
    star 2
    ROTJ Palpatine is one-dimensional ultimate villain. He wants the rebels destroyed and Luke on his side. Nothing else. Basically, he's no different from any other OT character.
    On the other hand, in prequels, as Sidious he's villain, as Palpatine he's power-hungry politician and manipulator. That duality makes him more interesting.
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  7. Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2013
    star 4
    Like Lucas said at the time. People are going to say. What? That how it ends? Couldn't you come up with something better?

    This is the movie where things are ended and possibilities are closed off.

    People's own imagination of what it should be will always be greater than what they get. Same thing for the PT. What people wanted and what they imagined they should get are not the same.

    Sith is the closet to what they thought so that was the one that people who didn't like them liked the most.

    The most tantalizing thing of ESB is what happens next?

    Star Wars was the most different in that it was basically tied up in one go and if that was all there was then it'd be fine.
    Last edited by Qui-Riv-Brid, Jun 6, 2013
  8. DARTH_BELO Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2003
    star 4
    You know, I have never really thought that return of the Jedi did the saga justice as a grand finale-especially the final scene.

    I think one of the great things is now return of the Jedi will no longer be the finale... Looks like episode IX likely will!! and I'm sure they will Give that one the epic ending that return of the Jedi should've had...
    Last edited by DARTH_BELO, Jun 6, 2013
  9. Charlie512 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 1
    Hey there let's not get carried away.
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  10. MOC Yak Face Manager

    Manager
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    Jan 6, 2004
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    I thought Ian McD was good as Palpatine, up until the point at which he and Sidious kind of merged. He was very much the politician. Too smooth for words but you always knew there's a fair bit going on behind the diplomatic words and instant smile. Sidious, however, really is a pantomime villain. When he's just lurking behind the scenes, shrouded in mystery, great. The more in your face he becomes, the less menacing and the more comical he becomes.
  11. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2013
    star 3
    One of my friends was a big EU reader, and he said that (before the PT was made), Sidious face turning decrepted was from being with the darkside all those years. So it was sort of a moral message that even though the Dark Side gave him these great powers, it did take a toll on his body. It looks like that was what Lucas was leaning towards in AOTC as you can see his face starting to change from TPM, but then seemed to change the whole plot point with Mace deflecting the lightning off his face. I kind of wish he stuck with the darkside wears on your body plot point from the EU.
  12. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
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    The current theory is that Palpatine used a dark side technique to physically alter his face (rather than just use an illusion) and the blast destroyed his "mask".
  13. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Even without the EU, I think it's clear that's what the audience was meant to take away from the character in Return of the Jedi. And I agree, I wish that would have been the case in the prequels.

    And I like Palpatine in the prequels so don't get me wrong, the Palpatine character is one of the things that is good about the prequels. So I don't want to make too fine a point about this. But I think they should have addressed that transformation differently than what we got
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  14. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

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    Apr 23, 2013
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    Interesting theory.
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  15. Rachel_In_Red Jedi Grand Master

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    May 12, 2013
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    I like Palpatine's OT/ROTS appearance being the result of prolonged Dark Side use. The force lightning explanation would be okay too if it weren't for the fact that Luke got roasted pretty good in ROTJ and it didn't change his appearance.
  16. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    And Anakin got it in AOTC.
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  17. Rachel_In_Red Jedi Grand Master

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    May 12, 2013
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    True. But Anakin's contact with it was pretty brief. I can let that slide. Luke? Palps tore him up with it.
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  18. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4

    I don't think Palpatine is the main reason, Vader was already having conflict, that's why he let Luke win so easily, Luke saw the good in his father and he gave up. I think Luke would still be able to recover from anger before he actually kills Vader.

    There could also be an explanation if we look at PT, Vader choked Padme in anger and later was deeply regret for it, could not fully embrace the Dark Side. So Palpatine might should he should let Luke kill his father not in fury.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, Jun 7, 2013
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  19. Darth Eddie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2013
    star 4
    The original topic of the thread interests me, as Return usually tends to hover around the bottom of my ranking of the 6 films... which still places it firmly in my top 10 all time favorite movies by the way, being star wars and all. It's obviously got so much great stuff, especially the end space battle and the denoument between Luke Vader and Palps.

    I feel like the rest of the film suffers from Richard Marquand's hands-off and inexperienced direction. Furthermore, there's be a case to be made for many chefs spoiling the soup. Not that I have some kind of hateful vendetta against Ewoks or anything like that - but would the ending not have been stronger if we saw wookiee slaves overcoming their masters, as opposed to the diminutive overcoming the advanced? All of the non-ILM shots and a couple of the dramatic scenes simply don't have the magic that Kirsh provided to Empire. This shows especially during the sail barge battle in my opinion, which could have been executed to far greater effect.

    Obviously it's foolish - and a little hypocritical of me - to complain about what could have been. I still love RotJ, but - 'why is it considered the weakest of the originals?' There's my take.
  20. DarthMane2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 4
    I see some merit into cramming a lot into the film being a problem, but it's definitly not as bad as the threequels of today. As it is, the film is about 75 percent great. The Han rescue is well done, the Yoda Scene is well done, the Fleet stuff is great, and the Emperor throne room stuff is great. What kills a lot it's steam is the ENDOR stuff.

    The acting is pretty bad this time around too, as compared to ESB. The scene between Luke and Leia is cringe worthy, and Ford is in the film just to be in the film. His character really has no purpose, and perhaps a death would have been more fitting for the character. Also having another Death Star wasn't the best idea ever.

    I say if you took the best parts of the original Drafts, like the Fleet Battle of Corusant, Leia and Han being seperated for much of the story, and Wookies instead of Ewoks you probably would have had an even better film.
  21. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    That's true, Luke might have killed Vader if Palpatine kept quiet. He paused to think only after he heard Palpatine.
  22. Charlie512 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 1
    I think I like RotJ Emperor better because he was more pure. Pure evil.

    Whereas Palps from Rots is surrounded by a web of lies and deceit, questionable choreography and bad teeth.
  23. Emperor Von Schweetz Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 1

    I'm not sure. RotJ is my second favorite, behind RotS. I feel like it's more emotional than the others, because of the end, when Darth comes back to the light. The actors are at their best, and the special effects are great. I actually liked the Ewoks. They were cute, funny, and useful to the storyline.

    So I honestly don't know why some people don't like it.
  24. d_arblay Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 4
    Even as someone who likes the Ewoks and loves the finale, for me, ROTJ still ranks as the poorest of the OT, despite it being my favourite growing up. The acting (Ian McDiarmid aside) just isn't up there with the others - either Harrison Ford is phoning it in or his character has altered too quickly to obvious the detriment of the film. The subplot at the start with his rescue also makes little sense and feels like a distraction from the overall story (a spin-off or TV movie in itself). That's not to say ROTJ is a poor movie - many of it's moments are still amongst the best in the OT. It just doesn't have the excitement of ANH or the sustained gravitas or flair of ESB. As a conclusion to the saga though, I wouldn't change the last 20 minutes for the world.... oh wait, it's not the conclusion anymore is it? Dammit!!
    Last edited by d_arblay, Jun 13, 2013
  25. Falconer13 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2013
    star 1
    ROTJ currently stands at #3 on my personal rankings list (behind ESB and ROTS), though I haven't seen any of the films in their entirety in a while so maybe that will change the next time I see them. To me the film's weaker aspects include the depiction of Han (he just doesn't seem as interesting of a character in this film) and the plausibility issue of the Ewoks' role in the defeat of the Empire. However, I really love the Vader/Luke scenes and the unmasking of Vader scene never fails to move me, so, for me, the emotional power of Anakin's redemption completely trumps any of the film's weaknesses and keeps it in my overall top three.
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