PT Why is the Jedi not being a celibate organization a problem?

I've gone through some threads, specifically ones concerning the Jedi Order's allowance of sexual intercourse by its members either inside or outside the Order itself, and the general consensus seems to be against this. The main arguments I've seen presented detail the contradictions in Jedi philosophy that non-celibacy evinces: "If Jedi aren't allowed to love, what if a female Jedi has a child? Must it be demanded that she sever all emotional ties with said child?" or "The Order imposes a rule that forbids attachment, yet allows sexual intercourse? Why is that okay? Sex without genuine love is simply pleasure and lust, and the Jedi shouldn't be allowed these boons!" I find the latter argument rather archaic and ridiculous, but I will explore that later.

That Jedi can have sex seems to be (in a rare case, ), one of the Order's sagely prudent decisions since its foundation: the Jedi are mortals, and are thus susceptible to the urges that mortals often indulge themselves to, even though they spend years attempting to subdue those urges through training; however, I do not think that the lust for sex is an urge that would lead one to the dark side, nor do I believe that a Jedi would have a difficult time regulating the extent of a sexual relation in terms of an attachment forming and posing a risk to the Jedi's moral and ethical code. So that Jedi are allowed to release whatever frustration that a lack of satisfying lust could pose (as sexual attraction is perhaps more a physical-dependent issue than a mental-dependent one), seems like an intelligent cautionary allowance that has perhaps saved more Jedi from the dark side than it has sacrificed to the dark side.

The argument that labels the Jedi unreliable heathens for tolerating coitus is, as stated before, archaic, as I believe it derives from our world's moral customs and ideals regarding pre-martial sex instead of the in-universe information. This whole belief that one shouldn't have sex without loving their partner is outdated and backwards. Prostitution is called the world's oldest profession for a reason, and it should be embraced (but I'm sounding like a hypocrite, alluding to my personal world views, eek), because it offers a release and a non-commital facet for this release, which I would believe is essential for a Jedi's faithfulness to the Order and the light side of the Force. The Jedi are also shown as being quite apathetic at times, nearly callously so, but this is purely an outside misconception, as compassion is encouraged by the Code; so while I believe a pregnant female Jedi would face a small struggle with surrendering a child -or aborting a fetus-, she would ultimately embrace the indifferent teachings of the Jedi Order and move past that potential roadblock.

I don't know, maybe I just really enjoy the idea of the Jedi getting down and dirty with no strings attached, or perhaps I'm simply confused by the apparent contradiction that sex in the Jedi Order arouses, for I see no reason why it should. Thoughts?

 

Only one: I agree

 

Why I refuse to accept this is because it suggests the Jedi have very low standards indeed and they are so afraid of emotion to forbid attachment so I don't think they should get away with sex without caring/standards.

 

Why is sex without emotional attachment low?
And how does caring require emotional attachment? I care about people that I'm not emotionally attached to.

 

It suggests nothing of the sort. That's an insinuation; what if the Jedi merely have sex with other Jedi? Are the Jedi low standard, as your claim would imply?

It isn't about them being able to 'get away' with anything: having casual sex isn't something to 'get away' with. And once again, you're projecting your ideals onto the Jedi: sex is an intimate act, yes, but not necessarily one that forges deep, personal, everlasting bonds. I'd hasten to say it makes more sense that casual sex is allowed in the Jedi Order, as, logically, most sex is loveless (prostitution comment aforementioned). You don't have to care about someone to have sex with them, is the main point, which is why it makes sense for the Jedi Order to allow it.

 

I think IRL considerations inform how folks view this, not in-universe reasons. Too many folks believe that whatever they believe has to be a part of a fictional universe and/or guide other folk's behavior in our world.

 

The fact is in the real world, people have sex without attachment all the time. You'd be surprised at how often it happen. Look no further than prostitution and pornography. Sex for money, putting on a performance and no love at all. Few in the adult industry are married, or involved in a relationship with their fellow sexual partners. People outside of those professions are known for doing it as well.

It isn't low to have sex without marriage, or a stable relationship. The world doesn't work that way.

 

Prostitution and pornography are hardly the paragons of society. I would hope the Jedi aspire to more than that.


My overall thoughts on this are: Lucas should've just come out and said that Jedi are to be celibate, if for no other reason than to keep wise acre fanboys from using the whole "Jedi can have as much meaningless sex as they want! Whatta life!!!" routine.

I doubt that's the message Lucas was trying to convey to impressionable young people. But I think the point Lucas was making is sex in and of itself doesn't make a Jedi "impure". It's not like the Knights of the Roundtable or whatever, where they were expected to remain as pure as possible. Having sex wouldn't automatically expel you from the Jedi order. But, the problem with that reasoning is, it looks like you're discouraging a normal,healthy relationship and encouraging screwing around with no attachments.

 

I don't see what you mean by this. The Jedi having casual sex is just what it is, casual sex. It doesn't mean they can't form healthy relationships, attachment withheld, just because they're intimate at times with others. Sex doesn't have to be the catalyst for the conception of a passionate relationship, just as sex isn't always passionate. It's a pleasure for some, and something more for others. I think you're seeing it in a very black and white way, which is unfortunate, because the Jedi being able to have sex could expose many potential flaws and hypocrisy within the Order, which would explain why they were so exposed and corrupt by the time of the Purge.

 

I'll leave my Christian IRL beliefs out of this and just talk regarding in universe. The reason we don't like the idea of just writing Jedi as people who have one night stands and flings is because of one thing: pairings. We like our pairings, no matter what, we like seeing people who have deep attachments to each other have sex. Just writing flings and one night stands forJedi characters isn't any fun, because we like seeing characters have connections with each other.

 

That's fine, but isn't it possible to have a connection with a sex partner but without "being paired"?

Sure, it's Legends and I don't necessarily subscribe to this, but in Wild Space and its sequels we find out that one of Obi-Wan's long time Jedi friends was for a short time his lover as well. They "came together when they needed each other" and reverted back to friendship when "it was time."

So there was a connection - more than "lust" it would appear or a one night stand - and yet it never developed into a romantic relationship. Yoda was okay with it as Obi-Wan hadn't "lost himself" within that relationship.

Of course Anakin was pissed to the max when he figured it out (like a decade or so after the fact).

 

From a narrative entertainment point of view, casual sex isn't very interesting in and of itself, no - unless you're into pornography, but that's usually not what Star Wars is about.
However, everything doesn't have to be viewed as potential story material. Lucas just said that the Jedi aren't celibate and left it at that. It was a simple matter of explaining how Force sensitive individuals keep popping up in the GFFA: Force sensitives reproduce. I'm sure the Jedi see it not only as a necessity, but as a thing of beauty; the miracle of life! After all, that's what they're about. Without life, the Force would not exist. The body creates the spirit, not the other way around. Jedi love life and sexual relations are an essential part of the package that should be embraced. No need to make something dirty out of it.

With all that said, I wouldn't necessarily mind a story that deals with issues that could potentially arise from this, like a Jedi falling in love with a fellow Jedi after sex and/or becoming attached to their offspring.

 

I didn't say that prostitution and pornography were paragons of society. But being a paragon doesn't stop one from having sex without love and attachment. I don't think Jedi go out and pay for sex. But it wouldn't be surprising if Mace Windu didn't engage in intercourse with say, Aayla Secura or Adi Gallia simply just to do so. To fulfill whatever physical needs that needed to be met. Done in one. No pillow talk, no cuddling, no walk of shame. Get up and out the door and back to business.

He did. Back during the London premiere of AOTC, the question came up and Lucas said that they are not celibate.

"Jedi Knights aren't celibate - the thing that is forbidden is attachments - and possessive relationships."

 

They say the ladies have another name for Mace... Shaft.

(Not my joke, but hilarious to me anyway.)

 

30 million worlds, quadrillions of sentient beings, a galactic internet. They probably have more porn in a GFFA than we have collected information of our entire real world Earth.

 

Calm down, no one was viewing anyone as an object.

 

While one could argue that there's nothing that forbids Jedi from having sex, I don't think casual sexual relations with random strangers are part of the Jedi's way of life.

Yes, sex is a part of life, just like forming a family, but it's not a necessity. The Jedi chose another path.

I agree.

 

Wait a minute. "discouraging a normal,healthy relationship"?
There are many forms of healthy relationships. Do you know what they all have in common? This: Those who are in those relationships are perfectly comfortable with their situation.
That's it.

Different strokes for different folks!

 

You seem to be misinterpreting my quote. (I frankly don't know why that happens with such regularity here) Again,Lucas quotes doesn't seem to be advocating "random hook-ups". The problem is, people will read into it what they will.

Now the first thing that happens is everyone saying "This is the GFFA, leave your religious beliefs at the door", but the fact is the Jedi IS a religion as we're told in the actual OT. So it is fairly strange to see the Jedi engage in "random hook-ups" for the sake of it. You could say "Every Friday the Jedi have group nude sit ins and commune with the Force." And people will say "Yeah there are nudists in real life. This is completely normal." But for 98% of the world, having our co-workers sit side by side with us in the nude is anathema. The same can be said of Jedi putting a post on the Temple bulletin board advertising for his evening's potential entertainment. It's virtually Impossible to divorce the "ick factor" from such goings on in "normal" society.

It also feels uncomfortably like going into Star Trek territory. For example even Vulcans who are expected to live expressly by logic, are allowed to mate passionately. But we're supposed to think of Jedi as just going about their "business" in a rational, loveless way?

Anyway, this is real odd rabbit hole to go down, and I'm not sure I care to. Lucas is at fault for being so damn vague. But he's not the type to really push sex to the forefront. (Kersh has the famous line "A kiss is equivalent to sex in the Star Wars universe") So I doubt "random hook-ups" were at the forefront in his mind. Star Wars is basically an old serial, in which typically the hero and leading lady would kiss an average of twice over 12/15 chapters. It's very "old fashioned" in it's style of romance and I prefer to think of it that way.

 

Is your point that a majority of fans expect sex only within marriage and with romantic passion? Not prefer, but expect?

Honestly, the Star Wars movies pretty much de-emphasize sex, anyway - it's going on like folks going to the bathroom - off screen. So it could be wild orgies with random strangers or a long term friends with sex or in-between.

However, when you factor in these are folks with a strong connection to something greater than themselves, I would expect intimate encounters to involve some necessary degree of connectivity, rather than random and hot "get it on" pah-tays.

Ultimately, though, who cares? We don't see it, so folks can pretend the Jedi are celibate to their hearts content. Other fans can believe different.