Saga Why is the light side bad? (Balance in the Force)

Yes, that Anakin may not be the chosen one as they were assuming.

Yes, it's easy to understand why they would cease to believe Anakin is the chosen one. It's easy to understand why they would cease to believe in the prophecy. Or that the Chosen One was yet to be discovered. Not assume that someone who doesn't fit the conditions stated in the prophecy is the chosen one. That's cherry picking it.

No, I'm arguing based on the knowledge the characters have. Obi-Wan knows that the chosen one, wether he believes it's Anakin or not, is someone conceived by midi-chlorians. Luke was not conceived by midi-chlorians, therefore he isn't the chosen one.

P.S: He never said Qui-Gon was wrong for assuming Anakin was the Chosen One. He said he was wrong for taking someone as old as Anakin for training.

 

Mace mentions it - but between ROTS and ANH, Obi-Wan may have rationalised to himself


"Perhaps the Chosen One didn't have to be conceived by midichlorians after all - perhaps "conceived by midichlorians" did not refer to the Chosen One his or herself, but to his progenitor."


Never underestimate Obi-Wan's ability to rationalise. This is Mr "(my lie was) true, from a certain point of view" here.

 

Even Qui-gon wasn't certain if Anakin was the Chosen One, just that it was possible that he was. And later on, he's still uncertain, which he says on Mortis.

 

Alexrd

I agree.

I disagree. You can be 100% dedicated as both a Jedi and a son/daughter/sibling/spouse/parent. Just like there are married soldiers in the real world, and married priests. A solider knows he may always get the call to be deployed, and could be gone for months/years or not even come back.

When Anakin was secretly married to Padme, before he fell... he was both a dedicated Jedi and a dedicated husband. Not perfect at either, obviously... but if he was only a Jedi, he would still have those flaws, and if he was only a husband, he would still have those flaws. It wasn't because he was both that he had those flaws. If Anakin was a pizza delivery man on Alderaan, and single, he would still have those flaws of selfishness and unable to let go.

Yes.

I just don't see that. They do a lot of things right, and their mistakes and flaws have some justification, but they aren't perfect "everywhere." And it's important that Yoda and Obi-wan are proven wrong in ROTJ.

Besides that, look at Luke. Despite Yoda making such a big deal about Anakin being too old, he sends Luke off to Tatooine and allows Bail to take Leia. Yoda and Obi-wan don't intervene or try and train them, not until Luke comes across the droids some 19 years later. Luke turns out to be a great Jedi.

They believed the dark side would forever dominate his destiny. Jedi are made up of people, the Jedi way was devised by humans. Jedi don't always agree with each other, just like normal humans.

Lucas gave approval when he made his offer to Disney, and even before that when he handed over LFL to Kathleen Kennedy. Lucas voluntarily said, in effect "I know longer have the last word on Star Wars, they do." Like a king abdicating power, and naming someone knew as his heir, and watching them crowned. The Sequel Trilogy and everything was approved by Lucas. He is responsible for Kathleen Kennedy and Disney having say over Star Wars. When Lucas would write Star Wars, he would write many rough drafts, and the final draft would sometimes be very different from the earlier drafts. Lucas gave them a copy of his rough draft outline. If he had not given up control, and stayed on, creating and writing and directing, maybe his eventual final draft would be very close to what we got.

I didn't say they did. See, they have self-love.

I don't see that at all. As Yoda said, he's the first of the New Jedi, not just the last of the old. Luke was the trial run for a new way to become a Jedi, and he succeeded in the end.

I have personal love for my family. I also have compassionate love for all people. I'm sure you do too. So yes, they definitely can co-exist.

 

That phrasing was Ben in Heir to the Empire.


Yoda only says "When gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be"

followed by "The force runs strong in your family. Pass on what you have learned. Luke, there is another Skywalker" implying that what Yoda wants Luke to do is teach Leia everything he himself has been taught - and that Leia will be the first of the newly trained Jedi.

It would appear that it didn't turn out that way - the impression I get from TFA is that while Leia might have learned something, she didn't "become a Jedi".

 

To him, he was certain. He believed that Anakin was the chosen one.

"He is the Chosen One. You must see it."

"He is the Chosen One. He will bring balance... Train him..."

The rest weren't that certain. but they were open to the possibility.

It's his job. Being a Jedi is more than a job. It's a way of life. To have a family is to form attachment which is incompatible with the Jedi way. It's having a priority and commitment other than what's required of a Jedi. It's putting your loved ones at risk because of what you want.

No, he wasn't. He was mostly gone due to the war (and if there was no war, missions would take him away as well).

Yes, not perfect at either which is what meant by failing both. He was living a lie. You can't have your cake and eat it too. The life of a Jedi is not the life of a family man. And vice versa.

But he wouldn't be a Jedi.

Yoda and Obi-Wan's opinion regarding Anakin/Vader as gone has nothing to do with the Jedi way or their teachings.

So what? It's not up to Yoda to raise Anakin's children as Jedi.

A conclusion not based on the premisses.

I'm not going to have this discussion. I know very well what Lucas said and did. That's beside the point. Nobody is questioning Disney's right to do whatever they want with what they bought. There are those that take in anything with the Star Wars label, whatever the content. I'm not one of those people. To me, Star Wars is the work of George Lucas. Only he can accurately tell the story of his universe and characters. Not fans, even if they are in charge of the license. For the sake of consistency and authorship, I'm not going to mix in an argument his work with the work made by other people who don't follow or respect the rules and characters he created and established.

My personal love for my family and dear ones trumps any compassionate love I have for other people. I'm not compassionate to everyone. I don't dedicate my whole life to selflessness and service. I'm not a Jedi. Being a Jedi is not just about having compassion for others. It's dedicating your life to it. That means no family.

 

I read through a large chunk of this thread and I can't help but point out there are plenty of things I heavily disagree.

One of my biggest problem is the argument "There were too much light and had to be Balanced by darkness."And "Anakin brought balance when only 2 jedi and 2 sith remained." and "The will of the Force!"
I think quite the opposite.

After the battle of ruusan, the republic began to decaying because the rule of two.Remember, the whole point of the RoT Sith is subversion and contagion, and after the Ruusan reformation, the republic slowly, descended into darkness, with small tiny steps at the time.And the republic reached a threshold at the time of the prequels.Hell!Darth Pleaguis went so far with his dark side experiments, the force literally lashed out and created Anakin as a counter, like an "anti-body".
During the OT, there were mostly darkness, with a few tiny dots of light around.
And saying it was destiny or the will of the force, is in a way discrediting Bane and his entire line.It is suppose to be their great achievement, and theirs alone.

The jedi's fault was their submissiveness to the dying republic and its corrupt senate.They were like the proverbial frog in the proverbial water.

 

"What Lucas intended" can be a rather subjective thing. Plenty of people argue that Lucas intended that we disagree with Yoda and Ben in the OT, plus the PT Jedi Order as a whole, in the PT.

Star Wars On Trial gives a number of such arguments.

 

Balance has nothing to do with numbers of Jedi and Sith or light and dark side users.
Balance is about the equality of light and dark, good and evil, in the entire galaxy.
When the galaxy is oppressed, evil is everywhere, and thus life in the galaxy (which creates the Force) is impacted by this evil.

The Jedi's role is to maintain the balance between good and evil. They do this by destroying any threat that seeks to oppress and spread evil.
The Sith seek to empower themselves of course and thus when they take over the galaxy they ensure that the evil dominates the good.
When the Jedi defeat the Sith, the power behind the oppression is defeated and hope & freedom returns to the galaxy. The natural balance between good and evil is restored.

It's not about destroying all evil, for this is impossible and without evil, good could not exist. The balance is all important. And the Jedi's most important role is to maintain this.
They're most able to achieve this when they listen to the will of the Force - which requires them to be as closely attuned to the living Force as possible.
The will of the Force is essentially the collective consciousness of the galaxy, speaking to those who are willing to listen and telling them how to restore balance.

 

I take it that's from a novelisation of the film. Fair enough then. But any significant attachment is not conveyed by the film at that point. The audience has not really been lead to expect that kind of relationship either. They are clones, after all. Created to fight and or die. We get a glimpse of comradeship between Obi Wan and Cody but that's much later in the film. You could argue that attachment to his subordinates indicates Anakin's unfitness to command troops. Never mind be a successful Jedi.

I would agree that it shows that Anakin is inclined to serve people before principles (although he as to be coerced into ignoring Jedi principles and taking the arguably just precaution of destroying Dooku- which he is clearly ambivalent about). And I believe that is where the tension and the conflict which Sidious exploits and which the Jedi fail to adequately support Anakin to deal with.


It is not Anakin's feelings that are the problem. The implication that a Jedi should not have them, and that they should feel nothing else but their devotion to duty, makes it very hard for him to reconcile his instinctive selflessness with selfless service to the Jedi order which has nurtured the potential that allows him to make such a significant difference in helping others in the galaxy.

 

Yup. Matt Stover, writer of that novelization, was an enthusiastic contributor to Star Wars on Trial - he was the co-author.

The quote was in the context of the Jedi ordering Anakin to spy on his friend Palpatine:


"I should have argued more strongly in Council today."
"You think Skywalker won't be able to handle this?" Mace Windu said. "I thought you had more confidence in his abilities."
"I trust him with my life," Obi-Wan said simply. "And that is precisely the problem."
The other two Jedi Masters watched him silently while he tried to summon the proper words.
"For Anakin," Obi-Wan said at length, "there is nothing more important than friendship. He is the most loyal man I have ever met - loyal beyond reason, in fact. Despite all I have tried to teach him about the sacrifices that are at the heart of being a Jedi, he - he will never, I think, truly understand."
He looked over at Yoda. "Master Yoda, you and I have been close since I was a boy. An infant. Yet if ending this war one week sooner - one day sooner - were to require that I sacrifice your life, you know I would."
"As you should," Yoda said. "As I would yours, young Obi-Wan. As any Jedi would any other, in the cause of peace."
"Any Jedi," Obi-Wan said, "except Anakin."
Yoda and Mace exchanged glances, both thoughtfully grim. Obi-Wan guessed they were remembering the times Anakin had violated orders - the times he had put at risk entire operations, the lives of thousands, the control of entire planetary systems - to save a friend.
More than once, in fact, to save Obi-Wan.
"I think," Obi-Wan said carefully, "that abstractions like peace don't mean much to him. He's loyal to people, not to principles. And he expects loyalty in return. He will stop at nothing to save me, for example, because he thinks I would do the same for him."
Mace and Yoda gazed at him steadily, and Obi-Wan had to lower his head.
"Because," he admitted reluctantly, "he knows I would do the same for him."
"Understand exactly where your concern lies, I do not." Yoda's green eyes had gone softly sympathetic. "Named your fear must be, before banish it you can. Do you fear that perform his task, he cannot?"
"Oh, no. That's not it at all. I am firmly convinced that Anakin can do anything. Except betray a friend. What we have done to him today ..."
"But that is what Jedi are," Mace Windu said. That is what we have pledged ourselves to: selfless service -"
Obi-Wan turned to stare once more toward the assault ships that would carry Yoda and the clone battalions to Kashyyyk, but he could see only Anakin's face.
If he asked me to spy on you, do you think I would do it?
"Yes, he said slowly. "That's why I don't think he will ever trust us again."
He found his eyes turning unaccountably hot, and his vision swam with unshed tears.
"And I'm not entirely sure he should."

 

QUI-GON: "This planet is both an amplifier and a magnet. Three are here who seek Skywalker. They, like me, believe him to be the Chosen One."

OBI-WAN: "You were right. The Force within him is stronger than any known Jedi. I have trained him as well as I could, but he is still willful and balance eludes him."

QUI-GON: "If he is the Chosen One, he will discover it here."

OBI-WAN: "And if not?"

QUI-GON: "Then you must realize with his power, this is a very dangerous place for him to be."

Sounds like Qui-gon isn't so certain.

I wouldn't say it makes him unfit to command. Rather it makes him to undisciplined. He has trouble understanding the difference between when it is right to help/save someone and when the bigger picture takes priority. He leads more with his heart than with his head. He feels too much and thinks too little.

No, the Jedi don't say that it is wrong to have those feelings as Obi-wan says to Anakin. What they should do is put those feelings aside when the time comes. When Obi-wan and Anakin argue about spying on Palpatine, they're both right and wrong in this situation. Obi-wan is asking Anakin to betray a friend, but he must also open his eyes and see that Palpatine is not as saintly as he's appears. That's why Anakin's surprised and angry at the revelation that Palpatine is Sidious. He realizes that the Council, and Obi-wan in particular, were right to question him. This angers him because he has been deceived by both his friend and mentor, but also that the Council put him in this position to find out. This is why Mace tells him to stay behind, because there is great confusion in him. His loyalty to people over principles is affecting his judgment and it is ultimately why he does what he does. To be a Jedi, one has to remain morally objective.

 

Qui-Gon is certain of his belief. But it's a belief nonetheless and as such he answered Obi-Wan's question.

 

You don't use the word if, if you're so certain.

 

I get the impression Qui-Gon believes it very strongly but ultimately acknowledges that it is still a matter of faith rather than proven fact.

 

In reply to this, I say: Yes.
Now, we know from the Chosen One prophecy that:

• It's Anakin Skywalker
• The Chosen One is definitely meant to balance the Force
• There's a strong case to be made that balancing the Force means destroying the Sith

My interpretation of the prophecy (I think it reeked of lazy writing, but I think I get what GL was going for) was this:
The Light equals Balance by definition. I never thought of it as Balance in the sense of tit-for-tat and balancing the scales, I saw it as Balance in the sense of homeostatic Balance, i.e. everything's healthy and going relatively smoothly. This can, and may necessarily, mean different things in different situations, but I guess the Enlightened should know what to do.
I've pontificated on what Jedi actually are in some of my other posts, but the upshot of it is this: in my opinion, if you're serving the Light, then you're a Jedi, regardless of what Order you may or may not belong to (unless, of course, that Order is the Sith. Sith and Jedi are kinda mutually exclusive).
Therefore, Balance, IMO, does not, emphatically not, mean 2 Sith + 2 Jedi. Balance means the End of the Sith first. But second, it means the renewal and rebirth of the Jedi.
(I get the impression that many viewers think that Light=Jedi, and I agree - but that they think that Jedi=Jedi Order, which is not necessarily true. And because the Jedi Order was running into problems in the Prequel Trilogy, viewers start thinking that Light=Bad, or Light=Stifling. And I don't think it does. It certainly equals restraint sometimes, and sometimes things have to change and downsize, but it does not =Stifling, extreme detachment etc, etc etc. I actually think that that stuff leads to lack of light, because you wind cutting yourself off from other living things. Since the Force is supposed to connect all living beings, that's probably not a good thing.
Which is why I think many viewers think the Light is bad, or not Balance)
So I think that Anakin Skywalker did balance the Force, because he destroyed the Sith, and created conditions in which the Jedi Order could grow anew. The thing is though, the change that the Jedi went through shouldn't have to have been so drastic.

 

Perhaps the Father didn't actually imply that a universe full of compassion is undesirable, but that in such a universe, life would just be drastically different from how we know it.

On the other hand, what is life without opposites? Without nights to counter days, without rain to counter sunshine, without death to counter birth, how could life keep moving forward, let alone exist?

 

Alexrd

You could say the same thing about a priest, soldier, a country's leader, etc.

So are soldiers. Doesn't mean they can't be dedicated spouses.

No. There's a lot of room between "perfect" and "failure."

They decided they would have that choice. That they wouldn't be raised the traditional Jedi way. They were ok with it.

?

How do you think TFA and R1 didn't follow or respect the rules or characters that Lucas created and established?

Well, I am compassionate to everyone, and I'm always trying to become more compassionate. And I know of others the same way. And having a family doesn't weaken this compassion; if anything, it strengthens it. And I have been dedicating my life to service through my education and career so far. This is why I feel strongly about this.

 

No, I can't. None of those are comparable to Jedi and what's required of them.

Soldiers don't dedicate their whole lives to their job. They have leaves among other things.

See the context on my previous comments.

The children are not theirs to make any choices for them other than a safe place where they should be kept.

Luke doesn't turn out to be a great Jedi because Yoda and Obi-Wan didn't intervene before he decided to become one. That's a non sequitur. He turns out to be a great Jedi because he was able to.

That would need its own thread.

I'm not compassionate to criminals, or to people with no morals, or to people who live at the expense of others on purpose, etc... I do try to be more compassionate, yes.

Are you as compassionate to your family (assuming its a good and caring family) as to a complete stranger? If so, good for you. Personally, I find it very hard to believe even though I do think it's possible if one takes the time to "train" himself in a certain way of life.

I don't know what's your line of work, but it doesn't matter. Nobody is saying that you can't be compassionate. Nobody is saying that you can't be a good family man. Nobody is saying that you can't have a job that's about serving others.

I'm saying that a Jedi dedicates his life to it. His family is everyone. There's no special group of people a Jedi is attached to. There are no attachments to a Jedi. There's only complete selflessness and compassion.

 

To my understanding, compassion is unconditional.
Being compassionate to some but not all is selective. It's being compassionate only when it suits you, deliberately or not. That's actually quite selfish and not truly compassionate at all. It's the dark side in disguise.

Again, that's my understanding - but you have to remember that the greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

 

So what is your point of reference for how a Jedi might be expected to react to the perceived restrictions placed on them by their vocation?

Without some comparison, you have no basis to assert how and why a character like Anakin might conceivably thrive, or otherwise, the role of a Jedi.

Also. Luke succeeds in pursuing his compassion for his father. He leaves the rebel cause to succeed by itself to do this. He begins ROTJ leading a group of people to save one man. And ends it by going out on his own, leaving the rebel assault, for the sake of his personal desire to redeem one person. A family member. Doesn't sounds like a great or successful Jedi if being one is defined as obeying only Jedi orders and suppressing personal feelings or attachments to that end.

 

Expected to react?! You either stay or leave. Nobody is forcing anyone to be a Jedi. But if one chooses to be a Jedi, one must abide by their ways. It's their ways that define them, after all.

 

It's what the Jedi council say defines them. It's their policy and their doctrine. It's not a natural law.

 

No. The Jedi Council makes decisions regarding internal affairs. The Jedi way and the Jedi code are things that are established and don't depend on the Council or any other Jedi.