main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga Why is the light side bad? (Balance in the Force)

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by MilakeRaznus, May 6, 2016.

  1. Strongbow

    Strongbow Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2014
    I this this attachment thing is directly contradicted by Luke's success in the OT. His attachment to his friends and father is precisely what saves them. Luke feels attachment to his friends, but is not ruled by it. He BALANCES passion with control and avoids succumbing to Dark Side.

    The Jedi of the Republic replaced heart-felt thought with Dogma.... and lost their way, somewhat. IMO, Luke is rediscovering what the Jedi USED to know.
     
  2. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Well said.
     
    Strongbow likes this.
  3. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    It's a fair point, but I'm not sure I agree. Anakin's attachment to Luke saved them, but Luke nearly lost the battle because of his attachment to Leia.
    Whatever the case, though, I think it's obvious that it's not a black and white matter. In some situations, attachments can be your undoing, but in others, they can save you.


    EDIT: Of course, Luke's attachment to Anakin is the reason he won't give up on him.
     
  4. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016

    Vader was at least prepared to turn Luke to the dark side, when that became impossible, he did not allow him to die. The only reason for that was his attachment which, in relation to Luke, turned out to be a good thing.

    I don't think anyone is making a case for attachments being inherently, invariably good and that they should none of the Jedi's business. But the Jedi policy and rhetoric surrounding attachments, at least for a member of the order, is clear. Attachments lead to the dark side. Not can lead to the darkside. Luke proved that they sometimes don't.

    The code may have been intended to anticipate the poor choices that arose from Anakin's dilemma but it did not anticipate attachment helping him bring balance to the force*

    (*Reportedly)
     
  5. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012

    Right after saying "Always in motion is the future" Yoda speaks of Luke "destroying all for which you have fought and suffered" (if he leaves Dagobah without completing his training) like it's set in stone.


    Similarly with "If you end your training now (if you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did) you will become an agent of evil".


    Both seem to be cases of them predicting the future incorrectly.
     
    Lulu Mars and Martoto77 like this.
  6. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Martoto77: I wasn't suggesting that anyone was making that case. I was simply agreeing with what was being implied :)
     
    Martoto77 likes this.
  7. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Coolio.

    I am maybe confusing this with another conversation where I was being told that - attachment = evil / if attachment = good how come Anakin turns to the dark side? etc.
     
    Lulu Mars likes this.
  8. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    BTW, in Yoda's defense, Luke would have become an agent of evil if he'd chosen as Vader did (which was the main point, not the part about leaving).

    Also, from a certain point of view, he would have destroyed all for which his friends had fought and suffered, since it can be said that what they fought and suffered for was, in this instance, Luke's safety.
     
  9. Strongbow

    Strongbow Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2014

    Certainly. But my argument is that suppression of feeling leads to resentment and feeds negative feelings making falling to the Dark Side more likely. In short, acknowledge feelings and deal with them, rather than trying to suppress them. Yoda was passing on Jedi wisdom as he knew and experienced it. But there WAS a problem with the Jedi. Otherwise, we'd just have to acknowledge that Jedi will continue to fall to the Dark Side, and that the Jedi were not terribly effective at defending the Republic. One sign of wisdom is being able to learn from past mistakes, yes?
     
    Lulu Mars likes this.
  10. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    The scenario in ESB is very different though.

    Yoda and Ben have controlled the narrative regarding Luke's father. In fact, they've given him a reason to hate and to kill his enemy.

    This is because they either want Luke to have no conflict about defeating Vader when the time comes, or have any illusions about the dark side, or to have fears about his own capacity for resisting seduction by the dark side. Or for all or some of these reasons.

    Luke does not at that time have any possessions or attachments for him to be greedy or selfish about (as we're supposed to define Anakin). The danger for Luke is that his comparative weakness and inexperience could make him lose faith in his own strength and character and therefore submit to evil. Finding out it's what made his father what he is today doesn't help either. And being out of the loop gives Vader control of the narrative at potentially the worst possible moment.

    So it's an entirely different dilemma with the same outcome as Anakin's, perhaps, IF, Luke chooses not to fulfill his promise of returning to complete his training.

    When Luke keeps that promise, Yoda declares that he requires no more training, Strangely though, Yoda is not prepared for Luke asking about his father. One thing that's always bugged me is, even if Yoda did not expect Vader to make that admission, his choice of words could have been much better. He's not very good at backpedalling either when Luke challenges him on it. Particularly since he offers as little in the way of practical advice regarding this development as he gave his father regarding his mother and Luke's mother.

    I don't know about suffering for Luke. Lando only clues them in to Vader's trap after Han has been tortured. I don't think you can say that they endured these things for Luke's sake. I always took that line to mean "Don't presume that your friends want you to rescue them or sort their problems". The irony is that Han got a bad feeling which he followed up by going on a foolhardy rescue mission in aid of Luke at the beginning of the film. Had he not, Luke would no be on Dagobah being told not to follow his feelings.
     
    Iron_lord and Lulu Mars like this.
  11. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    That's why Depa told Kanan to not be too attached to people. To love them, but be prepared to lose them and accept that loss. Same with Luminara telling Anakin to prepare himself for the worst if Ahsoka were to die, before she could be rescued.

    Part of it was their relationship, but Anakin also acted because a Jedi showed him compassion. That played a part in his redemption. Anakin places a strong feeling towards people that he cares for. Not just those of blood.


    Not quite incorrectly. Luke did resist the dark side, but he wasn't fully right afterwards. It isn't until he faces his trail that he is finally all right. But remember that it is all dependent on choosing to surrender to his emotions and not use his head. Luke was still in danger up until he threw down his saber.

    Yoda states that he felt that Luke wasn't ready to know yet, because he was not a trained Jedi yet. He wasn't ready to hear it until he was and once he's told the truth and why, he let's go of his anger towards Obi-wan and Yoda. But yes, it is about not having any conflict about confronting Vader because his father has to die. It just so happens that Luke finds a path that worked out. One where he doesn't kill his father, but his father still loses his life.

    Yoda's dying. He's not in a position to give a full lecture. He'd rather have Obi-wan deal with it since he was the one who told Luke at first and he has all the time necessary to explain it to him. But he's not backpedling. He makes it clear that Luke wasn't ready to know. We see this when he asks why he cannot just use the dark side to defeat Vader. It is only after his confrontation and rejection of the dark side at Bespin, that Yoda sees that Luke was stronger than he had assumed. But he knows that there is still a challenge ahead of him.

    They don't want Luke to risk his life unnecessarily for them. They will give their lives for him and he should honor their sacrifice. Luke isn't willing to accept that because he has an attachment to them. That's why he leaves and why he lashes out at Palpatine. He has to accept that part of life, in order to be a complete Jedi.
     
  12. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Beside Padme, Anakin cared most for Obi Wan. Obi Wan once felt as Luke does, which Vader acknowledges, and it made no difference to Anakin's feelings then or when he was once more in the presence of his old master. It seems strange, and at odds with how Vader responded to Obi Wan, that the need for a Jedi to show him compassion would suddenly be a crucial factor.

    It was in the act of proclaiming love specifically for his father, wherever he may be, that explicitly heralds Luke's ascension to Jedi status. The two things are inextricably linked.
    It's the attachment that enables him to justify the goodness of the man that once was, in spite of his apparent duty to destroy the evil that he had become.

    But Luke did defy Yoda and he did not turn to the dark side, even when Vader reveals the truth. It was listening to the right emotions and trusting his deepest feelings that enabled Luke to prevail

    Nobody's asking for a lecture. Acknowledgement of Luke's feelings for his father at least by Yoda would have perhaps have mended trust between he and Luke. Instead it sounds like Yoda is annoyed at having control of the narrative taken away from him and that he distrusts whatever feelings Luke has for his father. It is left to Obi Wan to do the proper explaining, which is perhaps appropriate, but it always bugged me that Yoda does not seem concerned except when it interferes with preparing Luke for his presumed duty. I don't know that being a trained Jedi was naturally requisite for Luke handling the truth. Since the father/son Jedi relationship is supposed to be unique to the Skywalkers, there appears not to be a precedent in Jedi doctrine or philosophy for handling this kind of information.

    Like I said. The information that Ben and Yoda elected to give Luke was bound to provoke feelings of revenge and hatred for his enemy. It seems odd that they would defer disclosure of his father's identity if it was likely, as it turns out, that it would mitigate those explicitly un-Jedi like feelings. Learning that his father turned to the darkside would not have encouraged Luke to choose the darkside in order to defeat his father. That makes no sense. Killing the man who murdered his father out of revenge may certainly have sent Luke down the dark path. Hopelessness and fatigue may have lead him to surrender. But becoming evil to defeat Vader?

    Luke says "I will never join you!" to Vader. But when Vader turns out to be his father, that claim is completely undermined. He clearly would join his father. The question is, would it be joining him on the dark side of the force? Joining him in death? Or turning his father back?


    But Han an Leia are not in the process of giving their lives for Luke. They were asked no questions. Luke wasn't even mentioned. Yoda implies that they are fighting for something that Luke cannot interfere in, for the sake of his duty to his Jedi training and for the assured destruction of the fruits of their suffering, whatever they are. Yoda states that he cannot predict what will happen but he seems to know why it will or should happen without Luke''s involvement. This still has to do with Yoda controlling the narrative. Luke wants to trust him but it's not hard to see why he would be skeptical, especially in the face of the loyalty and security that Han, Leia and his attachment for each other which had served them all well up till now. (see Han's snow rescue).

    When Luke confronts Palpatine, after leaving the rebel assault that the realised he was jeopardising by coming along on, the Emperor shows how he has not only accurately predicted the course of events, he has in fact engineered an elaborate trap that will assure the destruction of his friends and the fight for freedom while he watches. Despair and frustration at his and the Jedi's inability to foresee and prepare for these things prompts him to momentarily lose his faith in the attachment that motivate him.

    He loses the initiative but then regains it because the Emperor has made one prediction too far and called it wrong. Yes. Father will become like son and vice versa but not,as the Emperor claims, because Luke's father can "never" be turned. The Emperor has misnterpreted Vader's reluctance to destroy the unwilling Luke on cloud city as purely a desire to recruit young Skywalker as a potential ally against him.

    In a way. The jedi and the Emperor make the same error but for different reasons. They presume or appear to presume to know how a person will behave either because of or in spite of their attachments to someone rather than how someone might respond in those circumstances.

    For the Jedi, it had become an embedded aspect of their millennia old collected wisdom, such as it is. For the Sith it was a product of their cruel ambitions. In either's case it helped and hindered their cause. The intuition of an individual ultimately helped redeem that shortcoming in the case of the Jedi
     
    minnishe and Iron_lord like this.
  13. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    The difference is that Obi-wan betrayed Anakin, by turning Padme against them and then nearly killing him on Mustafar. That's why Obi-wan isn't able to reach him because Anakin has all this pent up anger at Obi-wan for all these perceived slights against him and when Obi-wan walks away from him instead of trying to help him, that was the last straw. To him it was the ultimate betrayal as Obi-wan chose principles ("Anakin, my allegiance is to the Republic...to democracy!") versus people ("You were my brother, Anakin. I loved you."). Luke chose both his principles ("I'll never turn to the dark side.") and his father ("I will not fight you."). The latter was important as he spared his father when Obi-wan couldn't for him, just as he couldn't spare Dooku.

    Well, he never said that he loved his father. He just repeatedly said that he will not fight him and he will not kill him.

    A couple of things.

    1. This is true. But Luke has not really begun his training and doesn't understand what emotions have to do with the Force.

    2. When he says this to Yoda, he's still saying it under the belief that his father lived and died as a good man.

    3. It isn't the attachment that does this, but because he sensed that there was a spark of goodness within him. He says this to Leia and then to Vader. He could only sense it because Vader did not hate Luke as he did Obi-wan, which is why the latter couldn't feel it in him on Mustafar.

    Luke didn't turn at Bespin, but he wasn't the same. That's why he uses the Force choke, why he makes a threat when Jabba sentences them to the Sarlaac, why he's angry at Obi-wan for being lied to. It isn't until he finally realizes what the lesson of the tree cave was, that Luke finally lets go of his attachments and becomes a Jedi.


    Yoda knows that Luke loves the idea of his father. This idolized version of him. But what bothers him is this unexpected development from Vader, a Sith Lord, revealing the truth when the Sith are known for not doing so. Much less acknowledging something like parentage. Nor does he distrust Luke's feelings. Only his negative feelings of fear, anger and hate. That's why he reminds him that when he faces Vader, he will also face Palpatine and that he must be careful of him.

    But yes, being a trained Jedi is important. If Luke found out before he was ready, it might crush him. It might prevent him from becoming a Jedi. He might not be as willing to follow his training if he is doubting that the Jedi are right in this situation.

    Because that's what happened to Anakin. He knew that Dooku was a Jedi and now a Sith, yet despite that, he was still willing to use the dark side to defeat him.

    ANAKIN: "I will become the most powerful Jedi ever."

    DOOKU: "I have become more powerful than any Jedi. Even you."


    DOOKU: "I sense much fear in you, Skywalker. You have hate, you have anger. But you do not use them."

    VADER: "You have learned to control your fear. Good. Now, release your anger. Only your hatred can destroy me."


    Remember, even when Luke knows the truth, Vader uses the threat towards Leia to provoke him to attack him using the dark side. The Jedi weren't encouraging hate, that was just a natural reaction when using the Force and being emotional. They were teaching him to not hate. To not have fear and anger. That's why he was sent into the tree cave. To understand what the dark side will do to him as it did to Vader.

    Han and Leia find out when Lando tells them that they are bait for Luke.

    LANDO: "He doesn't want you, he's after someone named Skywalker."

    HAN: "Luke?!"

    LANDO: "Lord Vader set a trap for him."

    LEIA: "And we're the bait."

    That's why Han gets up and punches him, despite the pain and the guards. Why Leia yells at Luke that he's walking into a trap, hoping he will turn around and escape before it's too late. They're willing to die for Luke to protect him.

    Yoda tells him that if he honors them and their fight for freedom and democracy, he would let them make such a sacrifice. Not just here, but later on.

    Luke isn't the one to rescue them. They escape on their own and have to rescue him. He's not controlling the narrative. He and Obi-wan both state that their future's are uncertain. But they warn that if he goes in now, Vader will exploit his emotional weaknesses and turn him. This is similar to what happened when Anakin went to Tatooine to rescue Shmi, when he was also emotionally weak and did what he did to the Tuskens. Same way when he went to Palpatine's office.

    What Han did was different. Han went out there without the Force, without any Jedi training and did not use his emotions to rescue Luke. He went alone and was willing to die if it meant that he could try and rescue Luke. Han goes because it is the compassionate thing to do. Not because he has an attachment to Luke. He'd go out for Wedge, Zev, Hobbie or Janson. Same with Luke.
     
    minnishe likes this.
  14. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    I don't know about that - maybe Luke, as Han's best friend other than Chewbacca - gets effort that Han won't put in for Rebels he knows much less well.

    Remember, this is the same Han who says he's not going to stay and fight the Empire with them - he's going to leave and pay off Jabba.
     
    Sarge likes this.
  15. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
    "Did not use his emotions to rescue Luke". He was quite emotional the whole time. He was in control of himself but it was quite obvious he was expressing emotions the whole time.
     
    Iron_lord likes this.
  16. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Anakin didn't have pent up anger for Obi Wan. He had pent up frustration, impatience and dissatisfaction which his friend an mentor guided him through, but there was another friend who turned that into anger and hatred towards the Jedi, including his friend and Master. Those are the circumstances for Vader choosing instead to try and kill him. It's at this point that Vader is willing to kill anyone whom he perceives as an obstacle or a reminder of what terrible things he's done. He's even tried to kill the person for whose safety he has made a bargain with the devil. It's daft to assume that Anakin has clear motives at this point.

    It's not really the point anyway. You said that Vader was turned back because the compassion of a Jedi coming in the form of Luke. But it is Vader himself who acknowledges that the most important Jedi in his life, Obi Wan, had that compassion for him in spite of what he'd become. The deciding factor is that this time it is his son for whom the compassion and unconditional love that between a child and a parent. All other considerations are relegated in that scenario.

    Why shouldn't he kill him if he does not love him? He's his and the Jedi's sworn and dangerous enemy of liberty. A servant of evil. Obi Wan has insisted that the Emperor will win otherwise

    1. Emotions don't have anything to do with the force. How someone who is strong and skilled in the force acts on their emotions is the issue.

    2. Luke makes the case for Vader's goodness after is confirmed that his father took an easy path to power, was seduced by evil and hunted down and destroyed the Jedi. What you're saying makes no sense. Prior to this he believed his father was a good man who was betrayed and murdered. Obi Wan tells him that in effectively that's what happened, but that the man his father become is not even a man, but a twisted and evil machine. Luke argues that Vader is still a good man, in spite of the clear evidence and instead trusts his instinct.

    3. Luke's attachment is precisely what gives him the ability not only to sense the goodness in his father, but to trust that sense, in spite of his implied duty as a would be Jedi and its attitude towards attachments, even parent/child ones.

    No disrespect Darth, I am enjoying this conversation, but it is beginning to get a wee bit absurd to have to keep defending the fact that father / son love and compassion and how they act on those feelings is the defining factor of Luke and Vader's relationship in episodes V and VI.

    Not being the same doesn't mean turning to or beginning to turn the darkside. Not being the same did not hold back Luke from fulfilling his promise.
    And yet Yoda still tells him he needs no further training. I guess Yoda is perhaps finally acknowledging that some people may turn to the darkside or not no matter what you do or try to pre-empt it.

    Can you imagine how angry Luke would have been if he had somehow destroyed Vader before Obi Wan admitted his true identity? I don't believe that the cave lesson has to wait until episode VI for Luke to learn it. It takes till episode VI for Luke to really understand the temptation he has to resist and how that process happens.

    Vader correctly identifies that Luke is unwilling to give in to anger. on Bespin But at the point at which fear and doubt begin to weigh on Luke as he falters in that duel. The point at which Luke might give in to hate, Vader tells him that he's his father. Luke does not want to believe but appears very quickly to understand his inability, at that point, to use pure anger. It's because of the goodness that he sense in him. Why? Because they are father and son. It's for this same reason, as Luke correctly identifies, that Vader was unable to destroy his unwilling would be apprentice, which he had sworn to do.

    When Luke does momentarily give in to anger on the DSII, it is induced by the Emperor's seeming omniscience and the inevitability of total defeat. The critical difference is, the emperor is able to induce hatred while his father is not.

    Yoda knows that Luke loves the idea of his father. This idolized version of him. But what bothers him is this unexpected development from Vader, a Sith Lord, revealing the truth when the Sith are known for not doing so. Much less acknowledging something like parentage. Nor does he distrust Luke's feelings. Only his negative feelings of fear, anger and hate. That's why he reminds him that when he faces Vader, he will also face Palpatine and that he must be careful of him.

    But yes, being a trained Jedi is important. If Luke found out before he was ready, it might crush him. It might prevent him from becoming a Jedi. He might not be as willing to follow his training if he is doubting that the Jedi are right in this situation.

    I'm not saying that the Jedi were encouraging hate. Telling Luke that Vader is his enemy because he hunted down and murdered the Jedi, including his father, is bound to create ambivalence to say that least. What Ben and Yoda do is trust Luke to remain dispassionate about his father's murder while being trained to confront his murderer, while not trusting Luke's capacity to cope with the truth about his father's "murder" and still be an effective Jedi. Anakin did not turn because he realised he'd been lied to by anyone so it's not the same. Anakin turned because he was seduced by a promise of power to sort out all his doubts and insecurities. There's very little in common with Luke's scenario. You might say that the duplicity shown by Ben and Yoda are a worse set of circumstances than the ones they placed Anakin under near the time of his betrayal.

    Until the final moment, Vader is still a slave to the darkside, in spite of his attachment to Luke. He believes that the "only way" is for his son to join him and defeat the emperor. Something which neither he nor Luke can possibly do his own. If takes threatening Leia to induce Luke to turn then Vader is prepared to do that. He is unprepared for Luke becoming empowered to such an extent that he cannot defend against him though. Fortunately, Luke receives a reminder that pulls him back to the light side.

    Han and Leia find out when Lando tells them that they are bait for Luke.

    LANDO: "He doesn't want you, he's after someone named Skywalker."

    HAN: "Luke?!"

    LANDO: "Lord Vader set a trap for him."

    LEIA: "And we're the bait."

    That's why Han gets up and punches him, despite the pain and the guards. Why Leia yells at Luke that he's walking into a trap, hoping he will turn around and escape before it's too late. They're willing to die for Luke to protect him.[/quote]

    Lando has no intention to kill Han. Punching Lando for selling them out (under duress) is not laying down one's life. Neither is shouting as you're being lead away to imprisonment (Vader giving strict orders which do not included the captured rebel's deaths).

    At no point do Han and Leia stoically refuse co-operation for Luke's sake. They are almost completely oblivious to Luke's importance except as their friend. And they are not in a position to offer or refuse anything after they learn that they are being used. They are not sacrificing anything.

    I'm sorry but Yoda isn't predicting that they will escape without Luke's help anyway. If that were the case then all he had to do was say "Actually, I can see that they won't die because you don't go to rescue them. You'd be wasting your time if you left to rescue them because they escape anyway." What he says is, I don't know, so you don't know. As far as you know you are simply going to cramp their style. And it could be dangerous for you."


    The Jedi never learned of the Tusken massacre. Which is why Anakin's potential for turning was missed, chiefly by Obi Wan and by Yoda. So they cannot be taking that incident into account.

    Luke isn't using his emotions to rescue anyone either. It is because of these shared emotions that these friends are compelled to come to the other's aid when they sense that they need it. I think it's conjecture to say that Han's actions in the first act of ESB are unremarkable in that context. It is concern for his friend that prompts him to wonder if Luke has arrived back. It is his perseverance that gets the deck officer establish that Luke is overdue. Even after that, Han has to defy everyone and go out into almost certain death because "[his] friend is out in it".

    Han does not show concern for the other ground staff during the assault. He specifically waits around and tries to encourage Leia to leave her post and her lost cause and escape capture. And he is there to take her out herself when they discover she has left it too late to get to a transport.

    It's all very well and understandable to attempt to align the ideals of prohibition preferred by the Jedi in the prequel era on the matter of attachments. But it does not do either trilogy any favours to attempt to revise the emotional drama that was appreciated in the OT by audiences 16 years prior.

    The prequels are actually enhanced by appreciating the irony of expressed doctrines and behaviours during that era when you know how Vader ultimately came to be redeemed in the OT by parent/son compassion and attachment. (and vice versa) It doesn't enhance the prequels to try and smooth away any potential ambiguities in the PT by rewriting what came before in the narrative, albeit later in the timeline.[/quote]
     
  17. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    Only because Leia won't admit her feelings for him and he feels it isn't worth it. That doesn't mean that he wouldn't help out Rogue Squadron, if one of them were in dire straights.

    Feeling emotions and being bound by them are different things. Han is afraid that Luke might be hurt, but he's also in control of them.

    Anakin had anger towards Obi-wan for years. He never got over his mother's death and blamed him for it. He was angry at him for going along with the Council in having him spy on Palpatine. For not trusting him and for putting him in this situation and now for what happened with Padme.

    Vader didn't believe that until after he turned back. Not before. "I hate you" is not someone who believes that Obi-wan was compassionate. Hell, during the battle he says that he hesitates which is the flaw of compassion. But after his injuries, no. He doesn't believe that Obi-wan has compassion for him. Nor when he turned Padme against him. To him, if Obi-wan had compassion, he wouldn't have done what he did to him.

    I didn't say that Luke didn't love him, but he never openly declares that he loves his father. But as to not killing him, Obi-wan never says kill him either. Luke just infers that it is the only way that a confrontation with Vader will end because of the tree cave vision.They cannot tell Luke what to do. He must figure it out on his own.Just as Ezra has to figure out that there is more than one way to defeat the Sith and the Inquisitors. He thinks that it has to be a straight up battle with the Force and Lightsabers. But Yoda tells him how they fight is more important than winning the fight. When Kanan is facing the Temple guards in his vision, he's never told what he has to do with Ezra. He figures it out on his own. Obi-wan realizes that the way to defeat Maul was not by outfighting him, but by out thinking him.

    Every Jedi must find their own way through the trials. They must figure out what it is that they are facing and learn to overcome it. For Luke, it is the idea that he must kill Vader.

    It does. Throughout ROTJ, we see Luke is not the same person that he was in the previous film. He's been changed. He's starting to exhibit more of the aggressive tendencies that his father was known for. That's why we see him use the Force choke, when the other Jedi don't. That's why he makes a threat when Jedi don't threaten.

    Luke believes that he needs more training, but in his view, Yoda knows that he has what he needs. He just has to face Vader and confront his own darkness within him. Yoda knows that people will always turn. He's known that for quite some time. What is left is for Luke to face his trial.

    "In coming back to see Yoda, we have to figure out Luke’s training and the fact that he never finished his training, and that obviously now he’s got a big question he wants answered. There is a point where the hero has to be left alone on his own two feet without anybody there to help him. And you can sort of have him be in a different place or something, but at some point you have to say well now all the props have been taken away, and he has to face the evil monster alone. In this case, the scene establishes that the evil monster is actually his father, and he’s going to have to do it upon his own, and that he’s really not equipped to do it. That he was too impatient, he didn’t finish his studies, and now he’s going to be half trained to face a difficult physical and emotional challenge."

    --George Lucas, DVD Commentary, Star Wars: Return of the Jedi, 2004.

    Obi-wan and Yoda would have told Luke when he finished his training. They believed that he wasn't ready when he left and they didn't believe he would defeat Vader.

    YODA: "Told you, I did. Reckless is he. Now, matters are worse."

    OBI-WAN: "That boy is our last hope."

    But yes, the cave lesson has to wait until ROTJ, because that's where the lesson is learned. He hasn't learned it at Cloud City. He learns it when he has his father beaten and as a result of his sister.

    Luke doesn't find out until after the duel. Before then, he's tempted but doesn't want to because of his training. But Vader not wanting to kill Luke isn't so much because they're family as it is his ambitions.

    "At this point, Vader’s plan really, now that he knows he’s his son, is to convince him to come with him. Join the dark side and together they’re going to overthrow the Emperor, which is the thematic devices used through the whole movies in terms of the Sith, which is Sith Lords are usually no more than two because if there are three, then two of them will gang up on one to try to become the dominate Sith. Anakin would have been able to do it if he hadn’t been debilitated and now he’s half machine and half man, so he’s lost a lot of the power of the Force, and he’s lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful then the Emperor. But Luke hasn’t. Luke is Vader’s hope. His motives at this point are purely evil. He simply wants to continue on what he was doing before which is get rid of the Emperor and make himself Emperor. He only sees his son as a mechanism for the ambition. His mad lust of power."

    --George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.


    What Luke senses is that the part of him that doesn't want to kill him, isn't just for his ambitions, but because of their relationship. But by and large, it's for selfish reasons at this point.
    VADER: "Sister! So, you have a twin sister. Obi-wan was wise to hide her from me. Now his failure is complete. If you will not turn to the dark side, perhaps she will."

    LUKE: "Never!"

    Vader was able to find his trigger.

    Anakin believed that the Jedi were withholding the truth from him about the Force. He also believed that weren't honest about their true intentions in spying on Palpatine. The difference is that Luke believes them when they tell him that he wasn't ready and would tell him when he was.

    I never said that Lando intended to kill them. Don't know where you get that from. My point is that Han and Leia would rather die themselves, than lose Luke to Vader because of his attachment to them. And yes, Leia warning Luke shows that she is thinking of him over herself.

    They know that Vader wants Luke because he's the pilot who destroyed the Death Star and they know that Luke identifies as a Jedi, which Vader is known for having helped eliminate. Making an open declaration is not important, nor having anything to bargain with. They would rather risk their own lives if it meant that he lived. They would rather he stay where he was than have him come for them. The larger point is that because of the war, they have put themselves at risk. Here and again at Endor. Luke has to be willing to accept that risk. That sacrifice.

    I didn't say that he did. That's the point. Their fates are unknown. Luke believes that they will die, but Obi-wan points out that it is unknown. He has to accept that if they are to die, then that is their destiny. He cannot rush off like this and in the end, he doesn't rescue them.

    At the time it happened, no. But with Qui-gon communing with them and when Obi-wan himself becomes one with the Force, it becomes known to them. The past can be seen as time has no meaning in the Netherworld of the Force. However, Vader knows what going back to Tatooine did to him and he uses that with Luke. He went because his mother was being tortured and he saw visions of that. Since Luke is growing powerful and has an attachment to those aboard the Falcon, he will do the same to them to bring Luke out of hiding.

    The Jedi don't discourage rescuing a friend. What they discourage is losing many lives to save one. Or in this case, three. Luke must learn to accept that his friends might die. Just as Han accepts that he might not find Luke in time.

    He hasn't left yet because of the repairs. When he realizes that the shield generator has been destroyed and the command bunker has been hit, he goes to check on Leia and the others. Leia tells the others to finish the evacuation and then get to their transports. Han wants to get her to her ship.
     
    theraphos likes this.
  18. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    darth-sinister

    Han has feelings and his attachment to Leia is growing. That's what prompts him to be preoccupied with only her safety at that moment. If Han was a would be Jedi, we'd be calling this his first steps towards the darkside.

    Han and Luke are doing the same things for the same reasons and emotions. You can't just state that Han is in control of his emotions and imply that Luke isn't without evidence. It doesn't help either story to spin Luke's journey as being the same as Anakin's because they simply aren't. The possible destination is clearly the same, but the journeys and the perils are totally different.

    Obi-Wan is not the same after seeing Qui Gon die and fighting Maul. But he didn't turn or start his turn to the darkside except momentarily, like Luke.

    Anakin never blamed Obi-Wan or anyone but himself for his mother's death.
     
  19. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    As a Sith, he did blame people other than himself though:

    Star Wars Backstories: Darth Vader:

    Foreword

    The Republic betrayed me even before I was born, by allowing slavery to flourish in the Outer Rim. The Jedi Order betrayed me when I was a child, leaving my mother in slavery and seeking to limit my power because of jealousy and fear. The worthless peasants who took in my mother betrayed both of us by allowing her to be captured, tormented, and then killed.
     
  20. The Light Side is not bad is the person who becomes bad many Jedi were corrupt but this is not fault of the Light Side

    In KOTOR 2 they give a good example of this I recommend that you play it the game because talks a lot about of the theme of the Light Side and the Dark Side
     
  21. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Well it definitely seems like TLJ will now be featuring this debate.
     
  22. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    A Jedi can have feelings of love for another, but they cannot just act on them to the detriment of others. Han does not do so. Han is thinking about Leia and her safety, when he comes to the command center. He's not thinking of himself. Just as he does when he tells her that he's leaving in the first place. He's letting her go when he tells her that he's not coming back after paying Jabba off. The same way that he later tells her she can be with Luke and he won't stand in the way. Han loves her, but he is not attached to her. He thinks of her and her needs, and will walk away if need be. Which he winds up doing.

    Luke has more control than Anakin, but less so than Han. The difference is that Luke works at it and comes to understand what his training is about before it is too late. But their journeys are similar.

    "You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no."

    --George Lucas, “Star Wars: The Last Battle,” Vanity Fair, 2005.


    Obi-wan graduated and became a Jedi and never once acted as Luke did, nor Anakin. But he did start to become like Qui-gon.


    ANAKIN: "It's all Obi-wan's fault. He's holding me back!"

    Sounds like he blamed him to me.
     
    theraphos likes this.
  23. Diego Lucas

    Diego Lucas Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2015
    Well, the gray jedi team looks start to appear....
     
    LordDallos likes this.
  24. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    My thinking is that their thinking is the reforms are pretty major, and they want these reforms to be a central point (maybe THE central point) behind the entire Sequel Trilogy... so to underline how important it is, and to underline the Jedi are indeed making big permanent changes, they decided to go with a name change... which allows them to go all dramatic/foreboding with "The Last Jedi," "-the Jedi must end," etc. in marketing.

    What concerns me is if they go Bendu/Gray Side on us. No... light is supposed to be balance. If they introduce something different, they had better explain it much better than the way others who have had similar ideas have explained it. The answer is not to be half-Jedi, half-Sith... but reformed-Jedi. Maybe the answer isn't "gray side," but the old Aiing-Tii "the Force is a rainbow" philosophy. Luke telling Rey that the Force is much more than light, dark, and balance is a positive indicator that Luke is leaning more to "the Force has orange, blue, purple, and green sides too" philosophy ("what the hell does that mean?!?" asks Rey/audience :p ) instead of a dreary "gray side" philosophy.
     
  25. MilakeRaznus

    MilakeRaznus Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    May 5, 2016
    Wow, I am very surprised to see that this thread is still going. It's been nearly a year since I made it. Anyways, we have some new information we can work off of.

    After Season 3 of Star Wars Rebels, we now have TWO powerful Force figures that claim to represent the balance. However, I have noticed that the Father and the Bendu don't work in the same way.

    The works with the light side-aligned heroes Obi-Wan, Anakin, and the Daughter to fight the Son and pull the universe back into balance, Bendu works much differently.

    While the Father chooses to help the light if there is an excess of darkness, Bendu chooses to help neither the light or the dark. Kanan and Bendu's conversation mark the Rebels as light side-aligned and Imperials as dark side-aligned. Bendu states that he wants to be neutral but his storm attacks BOTH Rebel and Imperial targets, even when the galaxy is imbalanced towards the dark. Had the Father been in this situation, his storm probably would have attacked Imperial targets ONLY because he wants to help the Rebels restore that balance to the galaxy.


    So... what do you guys think this means?