Saga Why is the light side bad? (Balance in the Force)

Alexrd

You are arguing the Jedi in the PT had compassion, were unselfish and ready to sacrifice.

Yet the first think that raised both my eyebrows when I first watched TPM was this: "I didn't come here to free slaves"

That's technically correct and given their circumstances there is nothing Qui-Gon could do about at the time being, but that entire issue is never brought up again, except Anakin having a vision that one day he'd come back to free all the slaves (whatever happened to these ambitions?). As it was presented I never got the impression that Qui-Gon would even consider such an "idealistic crusade", but was interested first and foremost in Anakin.

In contrast, that's Luke's mission throughout ROJ, in a certain manner of speaking. He saves Leia from Jabba's slavery, but most importantly he will do anything to free his father from "the slavery of the Emperor" (even if that should mean both of them dying in the Rebel attack on the Death Star).

Which of course is also the aim of the Rebel Alliance, i.e. to bring "freedom" to the galaxy and end the "slavery" by the Galactic Empire.

 

They believed they had successfully neutralized the power of the shrine:

Tarkin

"Alert me when the ship makes planetfall on Murkhana," Sidious said.
The droid bowed its head. "I will, Your Majesty."
The two of them were in Sidious's lair, a small rock-walled enclosure beneath the deepest of the Palace's several sub levels that had once been an ancient Sith shrine. That the Jedi had raised their Temple over the shrine had for a thousand years been one of the most closely guarded secrets of those Sith Lords who had perpetuated and implemented the revenge strategy of the Jedi Order's founders. Even the most powerful of Dark Side Adepts believed that shrines of the sort existed only on Sith worlds remote from Coruscant, and even the most powerful of the Jedi believed that the power inherent in the shrine had been neutralized and successfully capped. In truth, that power had seeped upward and outward since its entombment, infiltrating the hallways and rooms above, and weakening the Jedi Order much as the Sith Masters had secretly infiltrated the corridors of political power and toppled the Republic.
Save for Sidious, no sentient being in close to five thousand years had set foot in the shrine. The room's excavation and and restoration had been carried out by machines under the supervision of 11-4D.​

 

So they should be a bunch of vigilante outlaws? The Jedi are guardians of peace and justice, and you can't exact justice without jurisdiction. The reality is that the senate is the democratic body that represents most of the citizens of the galaxy. The senate trusts the Jedi to maintain peace and justice within its bounds and the Jedi trust the senate to be the voice of the people. If the senate is corrupt, it's because the people let it be corrupt. Every senator and representative that is there is elected.

Why should it be brought up again? The Jedi's resources are already limited as they are, why should they divert resources to territories where they have no jurisdiction and wouldn't solve the problem at all? The Hutts control that planet.

He was interested in Anakin given his potential, but Anakin was always the one who decided his own fate and Qui-Gon didn't do anything at the expense of the mission. He just killed two birds with one stone and had to play under Tatooine's rules and laws (or lack thereof).

 

Kinda like Flint Michigan! At least we figured that one out. So it was thousands year old encapsulated ancient hate, anger, greed and fear that crept in and blinded the Jedi without them realizing it. Alrighty then, somebody thought it was great to put that into the story in 2014, I guess it's part of the story. Thanks for catching me up!

 

Vigilante outlaws don't "maintain good liaisons and open communication with the senate", do they? As for corruption among the elected, that needs to be fought at all levels, both grassroots and high level government. Going along with the corrupt system because that's who was elected is a tremendous failure to do their duty; the Jedi have moral and ethical responsibility to stand up for what is right, not just pass the buck to a corrupt oversight committee. In this galaxy, the "just following orders" excuse was deservedly squashed at Nuremberg, and the Jedi shouldn't get away with that line of defense either.

 

But "good liaisons and open communication" don't grant jurisdiction or permission to act.

Who's to say they aren't fighting corruption?

But they aren't passing the buck. The fact that there is corruption in the senate doesn't make the whole senate corrupt. And even if it did, its still a democracy and the government of the people. Of course the Jedi are free from divorcing themselves from the Republic if the problem was so dire, but with it goes the ability to act as guardians of peace and justice. They would be nothing more than advisors or counselors (which while part of their job, is not all that they are), and only to those that would allow it.

 

Not to worry, no need for any philosophical discussion anymore. It was all due to dark side fumes coming up from the basement clouding their judgement. If the Jedi did anything wrong, it was that they were poor urban planners.

 

?!

 

Look above. I guess there is a canonical book called Tarkin out that explains that the Jedi built their temple on top of a Sith shrine and that was the cause of their weaknesses. Something about "dark powers seeping upward and outward". Must have been why Qui-Gon was sharper, he spent more time away.

 

Oh, I've been used to ridiculous EU ideas/explanations for years.

 

Those who turned while still serving as Jedi, most likely fell because of attachments and a desire to become strong enough.

It was forbidden for a Jedi to be a Jedi and to start a family, which is what I said. I never said that it was forbidden for their to be siblings in the Jedi Order, as we saw with Tiplar and Tiplee. And given what Lucas said about the Jedi not being celibate and Qui-gon wondering who Anakin's father was, which implied that he thought it was a Jedi, it is reasonable that if it happens by accident then it is acceptable. What Anakin wanted to do wasn't acceptable.

With the slavery, as noted, he wasn't there to free slaves. But even so, the Outer Rim was not part of the Republic and it was not the Jedi Order's place to go around freeing slaves. This was due to their serving the Republic and basically following the laws in place. As to Anakin, his goals changed when he failed to save his mother. He was now more concerned about his desire to be all powerful, over doing something that was idealistic.

Luke was going to free Han. Leia's capture was a consequence of his plan to do so. It wasn't like she was captured independent of his rescue plan and had to free her.

 

Attachments for others was never established as a reason for the origin of the Sith. They fell for their lust for power and the dark side. In Anakin's case, his attachment and fear of loss led to a lust for power. But that wasn't the case for the first Sith.

While it's true that Jedi aren't celibate, it's also true that they don't go look for pleasure considering the selfish nature of it. Not arguing that it was forbidden, I was more focused on the "became" part of it. It just seems something essential for a Jedi to let go of everything and dedicate their lives to a cause and/or way of life.

 

There is no inconsistency. Destroying the Sith brings literal balance. The problem is that people think "balance of the Force" means "balance of the Force-users".

The "triumph of good over evil" as depicted in the films can easily be seen as promoting a "normal" balance of good and evil as opposed to the primacy of evil. When the heroes win it does not mean that the universe becomes solely good.

And that will never, ever happen, either in the Star Wars universe or in reality.

 

The reason for that is that greed, which is the root of evil, can never be vanquished - nor should it be. We should want things for ourselves, such as food, water, shelter, warmth, sex... We need that greed to live, to exist. It's our motivation, our fighting spirit, the only thing keeping us from becoming extinct.

The danger with greed, though, is that it can inflict pain on others. If left unchecked, it will grow and become oppressive. Then, it's become a problem - and the greater the society, the more easily the greed will grow.

That's why compassion needs a champion.

 

Well, based on the PT, I would say too much of the light side might be detrimental to one's well-being. At their core, the light side is mainly selflessness and the dark side is mainly selfishness. Set in their strict ways, the Jedi forbade Anakin from having any relationships/attachments, which Anakin needed for his emotional stability. In the EU (which is inauspiciously no longer canon), Luke's New Jedi Order allowed Jedi to have family for emotional support.

 

Not quite. Doing things required for living is not greed. For example, hunting for food is not greed. Hunting more than what you need is greed.

 

We define greed differently, then.

 

Didn't Luke get a bunch of slaves after freeing them in the new eu? I think the jedi know its a little more complicated when trying to free slaves on a planet in hutt space

 

Intense and selfish desire for something, especially wealth, power, or food. Excess. More than necessary.

 

Alexrd: Maybe a more universally fitting word would be "selfishness"? Greed can definitely be seen as what you describe, but pure selfishness isn't about craving more for the sake of having more. It's just about caring for oneself without regard for others. We do need to care for ourselves, which means that a certain amount of selfishness is necessary; especially in life threatening situations. Our survival depends on selfishness.
Selflessness is also a necessity, but a person who is purely selfless at all times wouldn't last long. A balance between the two must be maintained.

 

Caring about yourself isn't selfish, if it is only in the most basic aspects of life and human nature. Wanting to have a home to live in, food on the table and the basic necessities aren't a problem. It's when all you care about is yourself, that is the problem. Caring about others over yourself is also fine, because there is something to be said about doing things for others. Going in to save someone at the risk of your own is ideal. Caring only about yourself and never wanting to help, is not that ideal.

 

I've come to the realization that good = harmony = balance.
The Jedi may champion the light, but I believe that it's necessary to counter the darkness because, as I alluded to earlier, the dark side will grow if left to its own devices. Especially in a society as vast as the GFFA.
Internally, a true Jedi is perfectly balanced. Neither darkness nor light dominates the balanced heart. They work together in harmony to govern all; self and others included.
Again, though, it is necessary to promote compassion and make an effort to help others, because the needs and desires of the self will be met naturally. It's quite impossible to live without satisfying one's own needs. It's very possible, on the other hand, to live without satisfying the needs of others. Selfishness requires little effort, whereas selflessness requires a bit more.
In the words of George Lucas, it's easier to be evil than it is to be good.

So:

Good = Balance
Evil = Imbalance

 

I don't know. I think this story tells this:

Good=Compassion, Generosity, Love, Trust, Faith in others.= Light
Evil=Anger, Hate, Fear, Greed.= Dark

To say that someone who balances these things are what makes a true Jedi, I don't think so. That would mean our Heroes are morally ambiguous. I think our Jedi achieve their balance by recognizing that they do have a small piece of unavoidable darkness inside that will always be gnawing at them, but they have conquered it and act in Compassion, Generosity. Love, Trust, and Faith in others. (That last one I'm not so sure the Jedi of our tale really had that quality anymore and that was their downfall, while Luke had tons and that is why he succeeded).

 

That's only if you assume that dark and light are tied to different moral values. In reality, the concept of the Force is based on the sort of philosophical ideas that gave birth to Yin and Yang, which is about contrary forces being complementary, interconnected and interdependent in the natural world, giving rise to each other as they interrelate to one another (Yep, I stole that from Wikipedia).
Dark and light, water and fire, coldness and heat, passivity and activity etc - not "right" and "wrong".
We, nature, really do need all of these things and they really are equal in importance. In balance, there is harmony. In harmony, life prospers.
Prosperity is good.

We must also remember that the Jedi want balance. If they really are good guys, then that alone should tell us that balance is good.

 

The concept of the Force was based on much, much more than just the philosophical ideas that gave birth to Yin and Yang. There needs to be another balance struck between the concepts that gave rise to the Force to appreciate the saga in the manner I do. But if many want it to be something about just balance, it's fine by me. I think they miss out though. JMHO.