PT Why is the Prequel Triolgy hated less on TFN than in the general public?

Is it because:

*TFN is made of Star Wars fans and we are more forgiving of it's flaws because we like Star Wars more in general?

*The general public is more influenced by the media and mob mentality than TFN?

*TFN members are more educated about the movies than the general public?

Other reasons?

 

Among general moviegoers, those who are satisfied aren't that interested in voicing their opinions all over the internet. They just like the movies and that's basically enough.
They might give AOTC a high rating on IMDb or Amazon and say something to the effect of "Yay, Star Wars!", but once the hateful comments have drowned them out, they've already moved on to something else.

 

Er...

This could get into shady territory.

I would actually credit the extensive -- even fanatical and sometimes clumsy -- moderation with helping shepherd communications and generally steer discussions in a positive direction.

What other board has that? If you want to see what a place with very little moderation looks like, visit reddit or YouTube. TFN is a much nicer venue for stimulating conversation about the movies: all six. (Although that doesn't make it "nice", per se. Frankly, sometimes, it just isn't.).

But this also means I'm accepting your premise that the general public somehow "hates" a bunch of B-movie space adventures. I can't see that being the case, personally. "Apathy" is probably a better word.

Are people more forgiving here? I don't know. I think some are at least willing to look at the films more than once. And I think people here, like anywhere, are also slightly influenced by the opinions of others: a sort of ineluctable osmotic effect. People here simply have less cause to be quite so fickle. Above all else, there is intellectual territory to defend, dammit!

Are TFN members more educated about other movies? Some are, I think. It's natural that TFN-ers might tend to take their movies, or at least their blockbuster entertainment, a bit more seriously than people at large; so they're slightly more open, perhaps, to characters, visuals, themes, and the basic logistics of film-making and story-telling. Although that's no guarantee against extreme close-mindedness.

The general public is always swayed by mob mentality. That one's a given. But whether there's enough of a mob around Star Wars, outside of the geek/nerd-industrial-entertainment-complex, to make the general public care? Probably not. We're oddballs.

Oddball, do you copy?

 

I would say there's an interest in Star Wars outside of the geek/nerd complex, it's made billions of dollars in ticket sales and is one of the highest grossing franchises ever.

 

There is. But how extensive it is -- in terms of what you seem to be exploring -- I'm not sure.

I'll meet you half-way. Star Wars is the rapture point for geeks and nerds. They almost all gather around it.

TFN is for some of the most devoted and obsessed to blow through their time and pretend they're doing something useful.

 

Are TFN members more educated about other movies? Some are, I think. It's natural that TFN-ers might tend to take their movies, or at least their blockbuster entertainment, a bit more seriously than people at large; so they're slightly more open, perhaps, to characters, visuals, themes, and the basic logistics of film-making and story-telling.
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I'd agree to that on the whole.

 

i don't think it is hated less. i think more young people are familiar with the pt than the ot. remember people that like something don't feel the need to yell about it. the vocal people are the ones with the hate.

 

Not always. The supposed 'gushers' are quite vocal as well. The report function I think has helped some. Though I have seen some truly horrendous posts from all sides over the years.

 

Cryo is correct. I think apathy is the best way to describe it. I think, for the vast amount of the movie going public, they just don't care. Especially the younger generations, whom have grown up with blockbuster after blockbuster, Star Wars is just another set of films in a long line of "must see movies" but are forgotten thanks to the next "must see movie".

 

I would say it is that due in some part to the way the mods work here the discussion ends up more respectful between people. Obvious trolls are banned amazingly fast here, take a look at places like imdb were the game of thrones boards are now unreadable due to trolls and off topic threads. There are discussions and heated arguements here but to post here you love star wars and you know the other Person does too, even if you have different opinions. having seperate boards for each era of the saga helps a lot as well, if some one does not like the pt they can stick to the ct forum and vice versa.

 

Why is the Prequel Triolgy hated less on TFN than in the general public?

Denial. Most people here are in denial...

 

Not funny. But harmless enough.

Here's the thing: The vast majority of human beings in general aren't extreme. Typical humans aren't extreme about things. So to imply that the majority of the general public 'hates' anything, especially something which is nothing more than art or entertainment, is laughable.

The bottom line is this: Nothing is overwhelmingly 'hated', in a genuine sense, by an enormous number of people. Those who hate anything are always in the minority. That's not to say a minority can't have power over a majority, because it can. But the idea that most people "don't really care" one way or another is more or less correct. Most people, thankfully, just like what they like.

And there is no hive mentality relating to art or entertainment. Not really.

On the internet, it can appear that way sometimes. But really, it isn't.

With, of course, the exception of Fan Mentality. That's a completely different thing. Which is why it indeed doesn't apply to anyone who watches things casually. However, Fan Mentality is also an illusion. I don't even agree that those who shout their opinions as if they were facts actually have any power. The reason I say this is because they only have power if we let them have power. Anyone who simply ignores them is completely free of their influence. And this applies across the board to all kinds of films, TV programmes, etc.

Having said that, I doubt there really is some kind of extremist "Old-School Star Wars cult" which uses bullying to take over forums like a Crime Syndicate, because the very idea is beyond ridiculous. All it comes down to is this: Individuals who enjoy trolling. They have no power unless they are given it by being listened to or obtaining respect they do not deserve. And conversely, that equally applies on the opposite side to fans of any director, actor, etc who can't stand to see their idols being criticised, and attempt to shout down even respectful criticism.

I'll give a brief example. If you have aggressive, disrespectful arguments about art and entertainment of any kind in places such as YouTube, it can get ugly. But that's because A. There is no moderation, at least not really, and B. The internet is a nice, safe place for cowardly bullies to hide and be aggressive toward others without fear of any real repercussions.

So, to sum up: The PT is not "hated" or "loved" by any huge majority of people, anywhere. Amongst fans it is different, but we're talking about those who watch stuff casually, not fans. It might receive apathy from casual film watchers, love, or dislike. But the "Bashing" and "Gushing" stuff are both nothing more than a group of aggressive jerks who hide behind a computer screen.

 

I agree that 'hive mentality' is harped about too much. The rest really is subjective.

 

I don't think it is hated less here on TFN then it is in the general public, especially lately with the influx of people that are looking to get information on and discuss TFA.

There might be a perception that there is less hate, but, I have to agree with Cryogenic, it has to do more with moderating then members attitudes towards the PT.

The mods do a decent job of keeping PT haters out of the PT section of the forums. However, if you go to the TFA section or even the OT section it seems to be more a fair game to make nasty comments about the PT. In fact just yesterday I was tagged to a post in the TFA forums in which there was a discussion going on about Lucas's TFA treatments, and the discussion quickly fell apart into a PT sucks discussion (I was not the reason it went that way, I merely walked into it), so I wasn't going to sit idly by, it's a forums, and I am here to give my opinion. No mods, no warnings, etc. In fact the argument is still going, though I have bowed out of it, for now.

I can't disagree more. First of all your statement seems to assume that everyone unerstands that movies are art. I don't think that is the feeling of the masses. I believe most people see a difference between art and entertainment,.Also, name me one other movie or movie franchise that illicits such a massive stream of negativity across fans, internet, and, and! mainstream media...

Look at the Batman, Spider-man and Superman franchises (just as a few examples). Each one of those movie franchises have had their share of let downs, disappointments, and flops. When the movie studio's decide to reboot the franchise, you never, ever hear in mainstream media how the hopes are that the spider-man reboot will redeem how the Tobey Maguire Spider-Man franchise seemed to spiral downward. You never heard off the cuff remarks by a CNN or other major network news host say that the Batman fandom was resting their hopes on a revival of the Batman franchise (with Nolan) after the dismal Val Kilmer or George Clooney Batmans.

There is a hive mentality when it comes to bashing the PT. Bashing the PT is now it's own pop culture. It stretches far past the internet, right into mainstream media where news hosts feel compelled to bash Jar Jar, news hosts that you have to look at and even wonder if they even saw the movies.

Furthermore, there is no other franchise that I can see, that has virtually overnight made film critics of everyone under the sun. All of a sudden, that accountant is now an expert on cgi, cinematography, acting, wrirting etc. All of a sudden your mechanic can tell you how the dialogue is wooden. Your mail man is willing to tell you how the shading on the CGI makes the environments look fake. etc etc etc

Now I am not saying that a mail man, mechanic or accountant can't know anything about those things. However, the skeptic that I am looks at these people and wonders if they are just regurgitating what they read, or if they generally really know what they are talking about. I tend to believe that most people (not all) fall under the first part.

 

are we sure this is the case? I've never talked to anyone in person that hate's the prequels. It's either online, or a writer, or some idiot on TV that's afraid of not
'being cool' . On the contrary i've actually told people about the online hate and gotten shocked looks.
How many times now have i seen someone on tv say ..."Star Wars is my favorite....um i mean the originals of course."

 

Hence the hive mentality.

I have a different experience to yours. My experience is that the people that have no connection or very little connection to the internet generally like the prequels. I know quite a few that are still disconnected, and they are generally about my age, around 40ish. However, the people that are more connected to the internet, well then I see a more lopsided dislike for the prequels.

The hive mentality always starts somewhere, then it spreads out as it assimilates more people. I tend to think the internet is the "queen bee" of the PT bashing hive mentality.

Started on the internet, then as the internet became more popular and more widely used in everyday life, well then you see the hive mentality assimilate those in the main stream media...

 

Sorry mikeximus, but I don't want to believe it's that stupidly, absurdly bad, not to the level you believe.

Why? Because it implies that a group of whining jerks on the internet can influence an entire media culture. That wouldn't just be pathetic - it would make human beings lower than bacteria. Do you seriously believe that's what happened? The internet may be powerful, but if a group of faceless trolls with no intelligence can influence people who DO have intelligence that much, then all it says about human beings is that we're no better than...well, womp rats. It implies that the Plinkett reviews (Red Letter Media) have actually influenced Media Moguls. Surely you don't believe that's true?

If a human brain is capable of such incredible things as harnessing the power of the atom (for better and worse) and all the incredibly spiritual philosophy and scientific progress we've seen only so far - who knows what's next - then how can so many humans equally be so stupid?

And I'm saying this as someone who is simply a Star Wars fan, period. I'm not only speaking on behalf of the PT. In fact, I genuinely prefer most of the OT to the PT, but that's not because of what anyone else thinks - I have no interest in following the opinions of others. It's because I weigh things up in numbers, and thus, because ANH and TESB are at the top for me, and ROTS third, on balance this means I like the OT more overall. Equally, I'm not against the PT at all, I like a lot of things about it, and I enjoy all six of the films except for the ending of Return of the Jedi (which was dumber than a cartoon). And, I think both the mentality of "PT sucks and that's the truth" and its opposite "GL is god and anyone who criticises him should die" are equally dumb. Neither argument is intellectually infallible. In fact, both 'arguments' are about as far from intellectual as one can get. Both are like a group of third graders in a playground on two opposite sides. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so pathetic.

Remember the classic film, The Sandlot? The argument between the two groups of kids, ending with: "You eat dog crap for breakfast, geek!" "You play ball like a girl!" That's what the most childish, inane PT vs OT arguments remind me of.

But that's still stupid. It implies that important people on TV are influenced by a group of online trolls. That's beyond dumb. It's so dumb that it could turn a total humanist into a misanthrope in less than twenty milliseconds.

Is that honestly how things are, or simply the paranoid beliefs of some (not all) SW (mostly PT) fans? I'm really not sure. I'd rather it was the latter, because I'd like to think most humans aren't such absolute sheep as to base their beliefs off some internet trolls.

 

Because TFN is awesome!

 

Define Important people. Most people on tv today are not Important.

 

"There are only two things that are infinite - the universe, and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former": Albert Einstein

 

Well lets take a topic a lot more serious than Star Wars. Look at Ferguson, how a couple "witnesses", the media and the internet were able to influence a huge portion of the countries belief of hands up/don't shoot. Even after the facts and forensics have come out that there was no way hands up/don't shoot is a plausible scenario in what happened that day, the narrative continues to be pushed through the internet and (some) major media as the truth, and people still believe it, as evidenced by other protests after Ferguson where they use that false narrative in their own protests.

Human history is full of a few individuals influencing the masses to do things and believe in things that they normally wouldn't, see Hitler and the Nazi's. They did it without mass media and 24 hour cable and internet access.

I never listen to what movie critics have to say about movies. There are plenty of movies that are popular and critics have positive reviews for that I dislike, like Avatar (just a Dances with Wolves remake). People look at me funny when I say that, but, I don't care. Then there are movies that are generally panned by critics that are among my favorites, like Man of Steel. I make up my own mind on what I like and don't like.

And you are taking the extreme of the two sides to make your point. For someone that thinks making extreme comments leading to division and childish arguing amongst fans is pathetic, you yourself seems to want to indulge in that behavior when you say "and I enjoy all six of the films except for the ending of Return of the Jedi (which was dumber than a cartoon)."

While you are entitled to your opinion, obviously, to talk down about people making extreme comments that are said in a way knowing that it will or could inflame others, you couldn't help yourself in making a comment about the end of ROTJ in a way you would have to know would insult someone that might like the end of ROTJ. You have essentially just told someone that might like the end of ROTJ that they "play ball like a girl".

You seem like a smart person, so I know you could have picked a better way to get your point across about the end of ROTJ, however, you chose to pick a very insulting way to do it, Then you wonder about the nature of humanity?

 

In addition to the last post by mikeximus...

You're making a category error here and creating a kind of either/or situation. I'm afraid human beings are many things all at once:

"What a chimera then is man! What a novelty, what a monster, what a chaos, what a contradiction, what a prodigy! Judge of all things, feeble earthworm, repository of truth, sewer of uncertainty and error, the glory and the scum of the universe." -- Blaise Pascal

Modern psychology demonstrates that human beings have many blind spots and all kinds of flaws in their reasoning; in their ability to reason. We are swayed by the opinions of peers and authority figures; and receptive to the siren sound of dogma.

How else do you think marketing, political propaganda, and religion work; even clothing fashions? People rarely fact-check anything or think outside the box. The former can be tedious and difficult, the latter takes inspiration, sometimes requires a bit of courage, and can be dangerous.

But what has turning from "a total humanist into a misanthrope" got to do with the credibility of a proposition? You seem to be arguing from a mixture of incredulity and adverse consequences.

People unfortunately base their beliefs off of all sorts of things -- few of which are all that scientific or rigourously investigated beforehand. Carl Sagan memorably said that the trick is to withhold belief until there is good evidence for believing in something. Few people, in actuality, do this; which is what he was inveighing against.

Fact is, the Internet is an enormous brain-tuning device, which can sway people in particular ways and expose all the ills in human society. That's why you'll find no shortage of 9/11 conspiracy memes and people who believe in them. Or people fanatically opposed to vaccination. Or all those who favour creationism and reject evolution.

People can be spectacularly dumb. Most do not think for themselves. And that term is actually a little bit unhelpful and describes something a bit mythical. None of us entirely think for ourselves -- it's actually something of a contradiction in terms. A lot of our "thinking" is unconscious; we are all the product of our messy and crude biology.

It doesn't mean people can't be rational and objective and independent and free-spirited. Very, very few are all these things, however. I, for one, can quite comfortably believe that people parrot each other to fit in and because the way they think is too narrow. In that regard, I think it's somewhat naive to deny that a lot of the hatred for the PT isn't driven -- at least, in part -- by bandwagon thinking.

But the general, general public? I still doubt they care too much to "hate" a particular bunch of movies. People with a strong interest in science-fiction and fantasy films, though? Yeah, they seem susceptible to hegemonic thinking. If you keep exposing people to the same attitudes, the same notions, the same stimuli, can they really be expected to articulate a range of views, or might they all -- broadly speaking -- fall in line with each other? And those who express different views in such an environment: wouldn't you say it is generally their fate to get ignored or shot down?

 

I'm not aware of this Ferguson thing, I don't even know what it is. But I see your point. Even so, I'm just saying, the people doing the apparent "influencing" here are a bunch of lowlife trolls. That's why I was categorically denying what you said - not because I disagree only, but because I really don't want to believe human beings can be that pathetic.

My reasons for this are personal, but in brief, I can quickly go from feeling calm to feeling extreme, and what this means is that I find it hard to let go of things that make me truly disgusted or angry - especially hive mentality and dumb humans not thinking for themselves. I try not to be a misanthrope because it probably won't do any good in the long run - a dose of healthy, but not negative cynicism is a lot safer. But all that happens when I hear about things like the idea that, basically, a group of goddamn internet trolls can influence the media, is that I become truly disgusted with humanity. I can't think about it calmly and objectively, because it's right here in our society. The fact that it's basically harmless doesn't mean it's ok.

In short, I'm arguing against your points not because I disagree, but because I don't want to believe the worst about humanity. If I did, I would be campaigning for nuclear annihilation. Ok, I'm joking now. But still, it's not a good thing, the idea that people can be that weak minded.

And that's good - I'm the same. I love the original Dune film, for example. I also love films that received more mixed reviews, such as Star Trek: The Motion Picture.

Ok - I didn't mean to be insulting. If you're a fan of that part of the film, then I certainly didn't mean any offence - I just genuinely think the end battles of ROTJ, by which I mean the battle on Endor and above Endor, are completely implausible and do not respect the integrity of the Saga because realistically, the Empire would have won easily. That's just my personal beef with the film, but for me, I have to completely suspend my disbelief to an absurd extent to enjoy anything about the latter half of the film aside from the Luke/Vader/Emperor conflict (which is excellent).

Basically, I can be quite crass about things I hate or despise. For me, the end battle of ROTJ is so implausible that it ruins the film. However, I don't think that by saying that, I was implying that someone who enjoyed the ending was weak or stupid. When I used the quotes from The Sandlot, I was talking about the idiotic flame-wars and arguments on the internet that take place between trolls, flamers, bashers, casual fans, gushers, etc, and all of that nonsense. I would never insult someone for liking the ending of ROTJ. I think you misunderstood. But again, if you're a big fan of those battles, that's fine, and I assure you that I didn't mean what I said in an offensive way.

That's very interesting. I have to say, though, that this idea is what makes me often feel like a misanthrope. I think for myself, I am very individualistic, and I despise group mentality with an intense passionate hatred. It's one of the few things that could drive me to the dark side.

And you're basically right. The problem is, and this is more of a philosophical issue, but if it's accurate, then do human beings of that kind - the unthinking, herd following weaklings - even have a right to exist? As Mikeximus has said, the likes of Hitler used herd mentality to get their power. If the lowest of human qualities - aping others - is the defining feature of so many humans, then it's hard to want to save humanity at all.

That's right. I don't want to believe it, because it makes me feel bad. Maybe you can look at it from a more objective, calm, Jedi like perspective. I find that extremely difficult, because it reminds me of all the stupidity, ignorance and prejudice in the world caused - mostly - by dumb stuff like hive mentality, and it's sickening.

Very interesting indeed. Maybe we should open a thread about similar things in a different part of TFN.

Then what I said a while ago is true: the internet needs strict moderation and a no tolerance policy for trolls or flamers. It's allowing trolls or flamers to exist on the net with such freedom that has enabled these negative hive mentalities to develop.

 

It was very big on the Internet and in the American media. Blew open the race lines that exist in the U.S. I still need to amass more information on it, personally. I can say one thing, though: Trayvon Martin may be dead, but I wouldn't want to be George Zimmerman. Can't help feeling some compassion for the latter, no matter what actually happened; or difficulties in his personal life since.

You remind me a bit of an online friend of mine. I'll share with you something he wrote the other day:

(He's very prolific in his writing about his feelings. I hope he won't mind me reproducing this. He went through some stuff; this is his reflecting on it.)

I look back at the whole thing, it becomes like a big question mark, just a really silly event, and I end up asking myself how I even managed to have such thoughts in the first place (going from someone who wanted to live indefinitely and valued life and well-being, to someone who absolutely believed everybody would be better of dead and that the whole world / the universe itself should be annihilated) - in the end we have to realize it's all just part of complex neural processes, different regions of the brain behaving in strange and fuzzy ways under different conditions, and just have to have a sense of humility over this fact; we are all easily quite malleable to changes in thought patterns and mental processes. As absurd and philosophical as this might sound, we have to realize that we have multiple selves, multiple personalities, sometimes working together, sometimes arguing, dominating and fighting each other-- we are not a single entity (as cases of split-brain patients demonstrates) and we need to dissociate our identity from our thoughts/beliefs.

I have a small, hot core of apocalyptic nihilism, myself. Though: heed that passage a second time. "We have have to realize that we have multiple selves, multiple personalities".

I'm being serious when I say I hope you can resolve your frustrations, your gloom, your anger. I'm also not kidding when I say that simply filling your life up -- as best you can -- with fads and fancies, and simply catching some sunshine, can sufficiently distract your darker tendencies from taking root. Try pleasurable things with various levels of edification: for example, books, music, exercise, pornography.

I'm really not joking about the latter. You know what I said about dogma? There is a dogma that money and sex are bad and shameful in the UK and the U.S. (One can, indeed, despise capitalism, detest sexual objectification, or at least find the two regrettable, and still recognize this). But they really do bring a measure of comfort and pleasure. My admonition, then, would be to shun puritanical thinking, which has dogged great swathes of humanity for several centuries, now, and just go with basic fun and pleasure and gratification when the dark clouds start rolling in.

In a more hedonic world, with greater technology and greater understanding, we will theoretically enter into an era of reduced suffering (human and animal), in which current hang-ups about sex and sensuality do not apply. Think of living lives that are both longer and wider. Advances in science and medicine make the former an increasing reality; the latter can be obtained if we become sufficiently wise. Lives that are both more pleasurable and more fulfilling can be had for all -- eventually.

Get some new interests going, too. Or rather: try and broaden your palate of interests. I'm not necessarily telling you to develop new hobbies, see new places, or anything like that. You can do a lot of travelling in your own mind. What I mean is: have you actually looked around, these days, and considered what is actually going on and being discussed? In art, in science, in books, in YouTube videos, in Facebook groups? There is lots to get excited about; lots to make you feel optimistic and lessen annoyance and despair.

And beyond that, perhaps try and cultivate more compassion for others, and yourself. This will help in the here and now and improve the odds of a more pleasant future. I'm one to talk: plenty of hatred in me. I believe that is the real trick, though. Think of the basic teachings of Buddhism. Essentially, it was the Buddha's wish (doesn't matter whether he actually existed or not) that all life be delivered from suffering. But I do struggle with that.

I consider myself fairly misanthropic in a lot of ways. Individual insights from others do spur me on, though, and somewhat correct for this, at times, recklessly consuming fallacy within me.

Advocating that people should be wiped out for their "weakling" status is very Hitlerian. I think I prefer Douglas Adams' humourous approach in "The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy". Y'know, where the Earth is destroyed for mindless bureaucratic reasons at the start of the first book? Or maybe you don't. But its a hugely amusing book.

Imitating others, sadly, is also how we learn. You used a very instructive word: "aping". We're apes and that's what apes do. But apes do other things, as well. That's why it isn't useless. Not everyone is mindless every moment of their lives; and some really stand apart. Paradigm shifts are possible.

But believe me, this is stuff I sometimes need to hear, myself.

Human beings are not a homogeneous block, though. That was the basic sentiment I was rallying against.

True, human beings, both individually and collectively, can be very, very disappointing -- to the point of provoking deep depression and homicidal tendencies.

But a deeper sense of calm can come over you when you look within. Realize people aren't all that different from one another deep down. Think of the cave scene on Dagobah.

Most of the barriers that we imagine exist are more like thin membranes; if they exist at all. We're guilty of an an attribution error; and of parcelling the world up into two types of people: those we believe are smart (like ourselves: see the self-deceit?) and those we think are dumb as a bag of spanners.

The world rarely resolves into binary, though. So there is always a chance for positive change and happiness within the present moment; as strange and as ridiculous as that often-times may sound.

Could do. But I tend to stick to the PT and SAGA forums. I don't consider this a particularly reputable venue for deep discussions of other subjects, myself -- or my multiple selves!

No, but really, I don't. The problem is one of a certain anti-intellectualism and general intolerance (and fear) of new or difficult information. People on here, I've noticed, like a lot of places, prefer surliness and ambushing others to serious debate.

Which is not to wade into out-and-out negativity. I'm just calling it like I see it. Books are more my friend in that regard. And private or very small-scale conversations with a trusted handful of people.

I think the Internet is something that is very difficult to police, though. Policing opens up its own can of worms, too.

That said, I think the quality of discussion on TFN -- in the prequel and saga forums, at least -- speaks to the success of moderation; suggesting that some is better than none.

I wouldn't mind seeing more moderated and even somewhat exclusive venues for prequel fans (and people wishing to discuss a variety of topics) to hang out. Minority views tend to always need added protection.

If you want to join me on Facebook, or speak more, PM me. No pressure; just putting that out there.

Meant with utmost sincerity: May the Force be with you.

 

The thing is that it is more calm and sedate now, compared to when the film first came out. This forum was crazy with basher/gusher wars and the like. It took a lot of work by a lot of people just to get here.

Roger Ebert originally trashed AOTC in his initial review and then did a follow up later on, retracting some of what he said.