Why is there so much droidism in a GFFA?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by MadMardigan, Jun 13, 2003.

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  1. MadMardigan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 4
    Droids aren't allowed in the Mos Eisley Cantina. R2 is banned from the food line on the AOTC refugee ship.

    What gives?

    Why don't the citizens of a GFFA like droids?

    Droids seem to keep to themselves and not cause any trouble so I don't see what the big deal is.
  2. Bjork Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 2002
    star 4
    They're created by species of upper-class; so they're thought to be inferior I suppose.

    Sort of ironic when you think about it: robots made by man possess every trait that's essentially thought to be perfect...
  3. Darth_Dagsy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2000
    star 6
    Well, droids dont eat or drink. Why do they need to take up precious space in a bar or cafeteria? Or why do they need to take food on the refugee ship when they dont eat...to get past some sort of food rations? Get more food for their owner when another might end up with less?
  4. The_Anakin_Wannabe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2003
    star 4
    That is a very good point.

    Although we haven't gotten to the droid stage yet, people abuse their computer and other computer run objects. And droids are essentially just that. Computers. I think the good citizens of the GFFA just believe that droids are computers so why treat them different.
  5. MadMardigan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 4
    Good point. I guess I take out my frustrations alot on my computer too. If it were human I could be charged with hate crimes. Does anyone know if EU says anything about the subject?
  6. ForceHeretic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    star 4
    The Courtship of Princess Leia touches lightly on the subject when threepio asks to adress the senate and when the guy who had the floor at the time says, "a droid adress the senate?" It says that the droid rights group would have a field day

    Personally I'd see droids as nothing more then an appliance, like a toaster, they don't have any rights, they're made by man with specific qualities and purposes like any other appliance or computer
  7. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    You have to realize that droids are manmade objects. It's like saying that robots have rights because they can talk and walk. (Not that I would argue against it if we ever come to the point of AI.) So I can see why they wouldn't be considered citizens in the strict sense of the word.

    But most of the examples of "droidism" seem to exist in worlds that are the pinnacles of crime and anarchy. You can't really expect much respect for droids in those regions, IMHO.

    Aunecah
  8. vw_jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2002
    star 4
    Personally I'd see droids as nothing more then an appliance, like a toaster, they don't have any rights, they're made by man with specific qualities and purposes like any other appliance or computer

    but they develop personalities and self awareness. we see evidence of this in c-3po. he displays fear and a desire for self preservation. we also see devotion in artoo. we also see them argue. would an appliance argue with another appliance? or better yet in more logical terms, would a computer system that's in contact with another system argue? never, it defies logic. droids are not merely walking computers designed to perform certain functions. they are an actual sentient race.

    this leads me to a bigger question; are all those in the GFFA including those of the rebellion/republic engaging in the terrible practice of slavery?

    think about it. droids call humans "master." a droid is required to follow his master and do his bidding, even into dangerous situations such as combat. droids are bought and sold against their will.

    even the argument that we create droids so therefore they should obey us is not valid. it's like saying that a parent has the right to turn his child into a slave for life and to endanger him and eventually sell him merely because they created him. you cannot do these things to a sentient being.

    and droids are sentient.

    so where does this leave things? i think there is major discrimination going on in the GFFA. any thoughts?

    VW
  9. The_Anakin_Wannabe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2003
    star 4
    think about it. droids call humans "master." a droid is required to follow his master and do his bidding, even into dangerous situations such as combat. droids are bought and sold against their will.

    A Jedi also does these things. That doesn't necessarily make them a slave. Well, except bought and sold obviously.
  10. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    It is my theory that is resentment from the Clone Wars. This is because the Spearatist forces are primarily droids, and people have a tendency to dehumanize and depise their enemies in war. So it might be a stigma they never got away from.
  11. Sithman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 1999
    star 7
    I think it's along the same lines of Qui-Gon's words in TPM to Jar Jar: "The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."

    But, for droids, it would be "the ability to speak does not make you human."

    Just because droids can talk and emote like humans, does not make them humans, and therefore they don't have the same rights or priviledges as humans.


    Well, that's my opinion. :)
  12. The_Anakin_Wannabe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2003
    star 4
    It is my theory that is resentment from the Clone Wars. This is because the Spearatist forces are primarily droids, and people have a tendency to dehumanize and depise their enemies in war. So it might be a stigma they never got away from

    Obi-Wan seems to have a dislike of droids in Aotc. "If droids could think, there would be none of us here" Jedi aren't supposed to resentful, so I don't think we can blame his time of Naboo for this. I think there is already a certain amount of 'droidism' before the Clone Wars.

    Also C3PO seems to be the only protocol droid with 'intelligence' as stated in a post above he feels fear and other emotions. R2D2 shows loyalty, but from what we have seen of the other droids, these two seem to be the only exceptions.
  13. vw_jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2002
    star 4
    A Jedi also does these things. That doesn't necessarily make them a slave. Well, except bought and sold obviously.

    a jedi calls his master master out of respect, not because his master is his owner. one can drop out of the order during training if they choose too. a droid cannot decide to leave his masters service of his own free will.

    and no offense, but the part about droids being able to be bought and sold is not a small detail. that is a major thing. they are treated as slaves even though they have self awareness and are sentient.

    Also C3PO seems to be the only protocol droid with 'intelligence' as stated in a post above he feels fear and other emotions. R2D2 shows loyalty, but from what we have seen of the other droids, these two seem to be the only exceptions.

    not true at all. during epI don't we see artoo and arfour units "scream" as they're shot off the hull of the queens ship while they're fixing the shield? wouldn't that denote fear of death or even pain on some level? if they were purely mobile computers they wouldn't scream, they'd just die. also when the protocol droid that is welcoming qui gon and obi wan walks out of the gassed chamber on the federation ship and runs into all the battle droids holding blasters at ready, doesn't it also show fear? . what about the droid in jabbas palace that artoo and threepio have to report to after they are given to jabba. it likes to torture other droids. does that seem like an unfeeling computer to you? it takes pleasure in torture, thats pretty human sounding to me. also what about the droid being tortured in that scene? it screams when its feet get burned. need i go on? if you don't see evidence of droids being sentient throughout the entire saga, you need to watch it again.

    also do you think it is pure coincidence that the only 2 droids in the whole GFFA that have emotion just happened to be paired together? i think not. artoo and threepio are the rule not the exception.

    VW
  14. The_Anakin_Wannabe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2003
    star 4
    a jedi calls his master master out of respect, not because his master is his owner. one can drop out of the order during training if they choose too. a droid cannot decide to leave his masters service of his own free will.

    Jedi are slaves in a certain way. They are taken from birth and then raised as a Jedi. Sure they can leave, but they are in a way, a slave to the order. A good example of which is Anakin.

    not true at all. during epI don't we see artoo and arfour units "scream" as they're shot off the hull of the queens ship while they're fixing the shield? wouldn't that denote fear of death or even pain on some level?

    Not necasarily. My computer beeps when it has an error. R2 also beeps when he is shot. I never took it as a sign that they feel the blast, or that they know they are being destroyed. I took it as they have detected an error.

    also when the protocol droid that is welcoming qui gon and obi wan walks out of the gassed chamber on the federation ship and runs into all the battle droids holding blasters at ready, doesn't it also show fear? . what about the droid in jabbas palace that artoo and threepio have to report to after they are given to jabba. it likes to torture other droids. does that seem like an unfeeling computer to you? it takes pleasure in torture, thats pretty human sounding to me. also what about the droid being tortured in that scene? it screams when its feet get burned. need i go on? if you don't see evidence of droids being sentient throughout the entire saga, you need to watch it again.

    I don't think the protocal droid on the TF ship in TPM is scared, it seems to react to danger. The droid is Jabba's palace doesn't have a big smile on his face as he is torturing the droid, it is just doing it's job. A computer maybe able to think, but that does not make it intelligent. If we were to put a computer who could 'think' in charge of the planet, one of the first things it would do is wipe out alot of the excess population in coutries that cannot support it. That is logical thing to do, but it isn't the right thing to do. We have seen instances of a droid feeling physical pain, but I can't recall a time were a droid, besides the two main droids, show emotional pain.

    The battledroids follow their programing. Lama Su states that clones are superior to droids because they can think creatively. I think the droids are just following their programming.
  15. vw_jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2002
    star 4
    Jedi are slaves in a certain way.

    there is no "certain way" to the slavery of a droid it is a slave period. they have no freedom what so ever. it is apples to oranges to try to compare it to the jedi order.

    Not necessarily. My computer beeps when it has an error. R2 also beeps when he is shot. I never took it as a sign that they feel the blast, or that they know they are being destroyed. I took it as they have detected an error.

    they don't beep when shot. they SCREAM. screaming is not the sign of an error it is the sign of pain. we see artoo scream when he is being hurt or is scared. when my computer has a major error a lil box comes up that says "waol." it does not scream. if droids have no fear of being destroyed they would not try to avoid it like threepio does. he trys to shy away from dangerous situations.

    The droid is Jabba's palace doesn't have a big smile on his face as he is torturing the droid, it is just doing it's job

    not the droid pulling the lever that lowers the hot thing to the other droids feet. the one who runs the whole droid thing in jabbas palace. it takes offense at whatever artoo "beeps" at it. if it's a computer that has no "human" emotion than why does it take offense and say "well your a feisty one" to artoo? in fact why would artoo say something "feisty" in the first place? sounds like a pretty human conversation for machines that "don't think creativly."

    . A computer maybe able to think, but that does not make it intelligent. If we were to put a computer who could 'think' in charge of the planet, one of the first things it would do is wipe out a lot of the excess population in countries that cannot support it. That is logical thing to do, but it isn't the right thing to do.

    this logic has no bearing on the topic. we are not talking about "real world" logic. this is the GFFA. in our reality there is no such thing as sentient machines. but in the GFFA there is. there have been no real world instances of a computer doing anything you have stated. the logic i'm using is based on things seen in a movie, and have situations in the movies to back them up. you are just making up scenarios based on your opinion.

    The battledroids follow their programing. Lama Su states that clones are superior to droids because they can think creatively. I think the droids are just following their programming.

    battle droids are also all controlled by a singular mind within a "control ship." they are obviously not the same as 3PO or R2 or other droids we see walking around.
  16. The_Anakin_Wannabe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2003
    star 4
    if droids have no fear of being destroyed they would not try to avoid it like threepio does. he trys to shy away from dangerous situations

    That goes into what I'm saying. Threepio avoids, but we don't see other protocol droids doing the same. Their reactions can easily be argued, as I am here, that they are merely following their programming.

    it takes offense at whatever artoo "beeps" at it. if it's a computer that has no "human" emotion than why does it take offense and say "well your a feisty one" to artoo? in fact why would artoo say something "feisty" in the first place? sounds like a pretty human conversation for machines that "don't think creativly."

    Artoo, I feel, does have a personality and can think creatively. I never took it as a sign that the other droid took offence. He just made an observation, it doesn;t necessarily mean he took it to heart.

    this logic has no bearing on the topic. we are not talking about "real world" logic. this is the GFFA. in our reality there is no such thing as sentient machines. but in the GFFA there is. there have been no real world instances of a computer doing anything you have stated. the logic i'm using is based on things seen in a movie, and have situations in the movies to back them up. you are just making up scenarios based on your opinion

    That's right. I am giving you a possible scenario to help my argument. Data can think in Star Trek, but he doesn't have emotion. He still comes down to his programming.

    when my computer has a major error a lil box comes up that says "waol." it does not scream.

    Certain errors have different warning signs :)
  17. vw_jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2002
    star 4
    That's right. I am giving you a possible scenario to help my argument. Data can think in Star Trek, but he doesn't have emotion. He still comes down to his programming.

    like i said i am using facts gathered from the movie. the parameters are set in the GFFA. not the reality we live in. you may as well start saying lightsabers can't work and there's no such thing as hyperspace while you are at it. your opinion based on scenarios that you create does not help your argument. facts from the movies do. citing star trek also has absolutely no bearing on star wars. sorry.

    Artoo, I feel, does have a personality and can think creatively. I never took it as a sign that the other droid took offense. He just made an observation, it doesn't necessarily mean he took it to heart.

    of course it did. why would it make a remark about artoo being "feisty?" if it was merely performing a task such as deciding where to relegate artoo and threepio to during their service to jabba it would not have made a remark. it just would have sent them there. the mere fact that it stated a remark shows it had sentient thought. why would droids have conversations if they didn't have a type of programing that mimicked human thought? and if they had that would not they have sentience?

  18. The_Anakin_Wannabe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2003
    star 4
    like i said i am using facts gathered from the movie. the parameters are set in the GFFA. not the reality we live in. you may as well start saying lightsabers can't work and there's no such thing as hyperspace while you are at it. your opinion based on scenarios that you create does not help your argument. facts from the movies do. citing star trek also has absolutely no bearing on star wars. sorry.

    I am trying to get my defination across by stating Star Trek. I'm trying to say that there is a difference between programming and intelligence to the point where droids are concerned about their safety.

    of course it did. why would it make a remark about artoo being "feisty?" if it was merely performing a task such as deciding where to relegate artoo and threepio to during their service to jabba it would not have made a remark. it just would have sent them there. the mere fact that it stated a remark shows it had sentient thought. why would droids have conversations if they didn't have a type of programing that mimicked human thought? and if they had that would not they have sentience?

    Droids can be programmed to mimic human behaviour. I think 3PO says something to that affect in AOTC.
  19. vw_jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2002
    star 4
    I am trying to get my defination across by stating Star Trek. I'm trying to say that there is a difference between programming and intelligence to the point where droids are concerned about their safety.

    there is a big difference between star trek and star wars. the star wars universe has it's own unique reality, with it's own physics and "rules" which many examples of can be found in the movies and books. quoting real world physics and other sci fi sources really has no bearing. if you want to talk droids and how they are programed you can't use an example of a computer from star trek or our universe. it's just too different. they don't follow the same parameters.

    Droids can be programmed to mimic human behaviour. I think 3PO says something to that affect in AOTC.

    but at what point does mere mimicry become actual sentience? i think it is safe to say that artoo and threepio are sentient. they are self aware, not merely just computers with mobility. they have unique personalities and thoughts that are human like. if you use that fact and follow a line of logic you will come to the conclusion that other droids can achieve sentience.
  20. ForceHeretic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    star 4
    droids are bought and sold against their will.

    Droids don't HAVE a will of their own, they have the will that their programmer gave to them

    They have system perameters (sp) that they have to follow, like Threepio being unable to impersonate a deity

    If I gave a toaster the ability to have a conversation with me, it's still a toaster, meaning if I felt like it I could take it out back and break it apart with a bat and I'm not infringing on anyone's rights, because appliances aren't people

    And droids are appliances, making a toaster look like and act like a person doesn't change anything

    They can only imitate the emotions that humans feel, they are not people and therefore have no rights

    We're talking about a hunk of metal here that can imitate human speech, not a living breathing person with thoughts, emotions, and opinions that originate with them. Anything a droid does it is doing because it was programmed to do it
  21. ForceHeretic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    star 4
    And oh yes, Droids have no soul, as well as the fact that they aren't living

    No soul + Not living = No Rights
  22. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    A lot has happened while I was away. Didn't realize that there would be this much discussion going on over here. ;)

    Well, let's see if I can get my points across without being rude. Droids are manmade objects. When they are made, they have no personality of their own. They are much like newborn babies. As they "grow," droids tend to develop a personality of their own - we see that in Threepio and Artoo. But we also have to remember the purpose of droids (why they were made): to help human beings. They were made by humans to help themselves. If you go giving rights to droids and say that they can't be sold and bought and that they can't have memory wipes, then it sort of defeats the whole purpose of why they were made in the first place. So I think I'll say that they shouldn't have all the rights of human beings, but there should be some governing law that says that they can't be tortured (like you see in ROTJ).

    On the tangent, I just want to add that the Jedi are NOT slaves to the Order. They have been brought at a young age and taught the Force, but that doesn't make them slaves. It's like saying you're slaves to your parents because they conceived you and hence are your Masters. It's simply not so. The apprentices, Knights, and Masters are free to go and do whatever they want; but if you resign from the Order, you have to face disappointment from those you consider friends. That's your opportunity cost. If you think your benefits are higher than your costs, then certainly resign. If you don't think so, then don't resign.

    Aunecah
  23. vw_jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2002
    star 4
    No soul + Not living = No Rights

    you make the asumption that humans have souls. there is no proof in this universe or the GFFA that humans have souls. even the spirits of jedi are going to have an explanation that ties in with the force and the skywalkers. not an everlasting human soul. but that is besides the point.

    soul or not is not really a basis for judging if lifeform is self aware or not. if you are able to mimick life to the point where it is an artificial intelligence that just as self aware as you or me, then it is in effect alive. just as alive as an organic creature.

    also what is the concept of "rights?" rights to do what? drink in a bar? we see droid bounty hunters (ig-88, 4 lom.)i would assume that droids have the right to make money. so therefore they can spend money. perhaps pay rent. own a ship. i can think of alot of things that "rights" can mean. your statement is vauge. so it's hard to respond to. is it right to vote? well from what i've seen in the PT only the senate votes on issues, not citizens. after all it is a republic not a democracy.

    perhaps you can define what "rights" in your opinion means in the GFFA, so that it can be properly debated.

    VW
  24. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "Why do they need to take up precious space in a bar or cafeteria? Or why do they need to take food on the refugee ship when they dont eat...to get past some sort of food rations? Get more food for their owner when another might end up with less? "

    What a great example of droidism.... :D [face_laugh]

    "but they develop personalities and self awareness. we see evidence of this in c-3po. he displays fear and a desire for self preservation. we also see devotion in artoo."

    Do we really see it "develop", or has it always been there, as part of its programming. The droids act pretty much the same throughout the Saga (though 3PO's jokes get better in the OT. ;) )

    I guess the real test will come after they have their memories wiped in Ep.III. :(

    "It is my theory that is resentment from the Clone Wars."

    But the droidism has already occured in TPM and AOTC. I would agree that it is enhanced by the Clone Wars, but it's always been there to begin with.

    "But, for droids, it would be "the ability to speak does not make you human."

    Agreed.

    "they are treated as slaves even though they have self awareness and are sentient."

    But are they really? There's no real proof of this.

    "they don't beep when shot. they SCREAM. screaming is not the sign of an error it is the sign of pain."

    So if I turn up the volume on my computer when there's an error, all of a sudden it is "screaming"?

    "in fact why would artoo say something "feisty" in the first place? sounds like a pretty human conversation for machines that "don't think creativly."

    You are confusing their technology with ours. Along with everything else they've developed (inter-, intra-planetary travel, hyperspace, lightsabers), you don't think they've also developed and programmed robots that can imitate humans to a higher degree than we can?

    As Arthur C. Clarke once said, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". I think you are seeing the "magic", and anthropomorphizing "feelings" where a superior technology is being demonstrated.

    "like i said i am using facts gathered from the movie."

    And giving them your interpretation, which is fine, but it is not shared.

    "Droids can be programmed to mimic human behaviour. I think 3PO says something to that affect in AOTC."

    ROTJ - "It's against my programming to impersonate a deity"

    (I see some of my points have already be made. Oh well. I have some new ones. ;) )
  25. vw_jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2002
    star 4

    "they are treated as slaves even though they have self awareness and are sentient."

    MEBEJEDI-But are they really? There's no real proof of this.


    i can think of many occasions where threepio is afraid he will be dismantled for making a mistake. if he is not self aware why does he fear "death?" would your answer be that he's programed to fear death?

    "they don't beep when shot. they SCREAM. screaming is not the sign of an error it is the sign of pain."

    MEBEJEDI-So if I turn up the volume on my computer when there's an error, all of a sudden it is "screaming"?


    why does the droid in ROTJ that is having it's feet branded scream? in fact why is it being tortured in the first place? torture would only work on an organism that understands pain as a method for training it not to do something deemed wrong. that is the way you train an animal, or even a human. why not merely reprogram it to not make the mistake again?

    although i have been known to hit my hard drive when it freezes up...it does not scream, however.

    "in fact why would artoo say something "feisty" in the first place? sounds like a pretty human conversation for machines that "don't think creatively."

    MEBEJEDI-You are confusing their technology with ours. Along with everything else they've developed (inter-, intra-planetary travel, hyperspace, lightsabers), you don't think they've also developed and programmed robots that can imitate humans to a higher degree than we can?


    i'm not confusing any technology what so ever. i'm trying to figure out if there is a line between artificial intelligence and organic intelligence. if you give a computer the ability to think in a human manner. grow in a human manner. have self awareness. is it merely a computer? this is the old "if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck.." thing i'm getting at.

    "like i said i am using facts gathered from the movie."

    MEBEJEDI-And giving them your interpretation, which is fine, but it is not shared.


    i think if you are going to cut and paste things from a post you could at least post the whole sentence or the post it's in answer to, so that it's not used out of context as you just did. i said that in answer to someone citing examples of thinking machines from star trek and from our reality.

    what i said was this,
    "like i said i am using facts gathered from the movie. the parameters are set in the GFFA. not the reality we live in. you may as well start saying lightsabers can't work and there's no such thing as hyperspace while you are at it. your opinion based on scenarios that you create does not help your argument. facts from the movies do. citing star trek also has absolutely no bearing on star wars. sorry.
    and it was in answer to this said by the anakin wannabe, That's right. I am giving you a possible scenario to help my argument. Data can think in Star Trek, but he doesn't have emotion. He still comes down to his programming.

    you stated in your post that i was confusing their technology with ours. well my answer to the anakin wannabe was stating the same thing don't you think? that you cannot compare technology used in SW to that of our universe or star trek. it's apples to oranges.

    VW
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