Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Tanjint, Jan 16, 2018.
Or is he lying when he extols the awe and majesty of the dark side to Luke?
I wasn't impressed with it by that point, he was entrapped in it. Once he made it his ultimate goal to take over the galaxy and control everything, Padme's welfare was quickly overshadowed. That's how the Dark Side works.
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One of my favourite "what ifs" deals with him beating Obi-Wan on Mustafar
The ROTS video game sorta gives us that, but not a lot. Would he have even cared about Padme at that point? She certainly wouldn't have stayed with him if she had lived. Would he realize what he was doing and go back to the light, or just be like "I don't need her anymore" and decide to steal the kids?
After what did happen, he had nothing left but to be broken to Palpatine's servitude, especially considering his injuries made him a shadow of what he could've been
"You don't know the power of the dark side" comes across as less of a boast and more of a warning
At some point, he did realize that Palpatine toyed with five of the top Jedi Council members. It does stand to reason that one can gain more power when no power is off limit.
C-section on the platform on Mustafar. Would be nice mirroring with the Taun-taun in TESB.
His entire descent was predicated on learning HOW to save her through the dark side. He lost his duel with obi-wan and she died so he never had the chance to learn what was promised. By that point, he was far enough down the hole that that he could not see a way out of it and embraced what he had left.
His "aloneness" always played a role and he needed/craved a belonging. His choices led him to relying upon the Emperor and darkside to obtain his feeling something of a whole.
Because he was already hooked?
Padme died before he was capable of learning how to stop someone from dying. So it wasn't that the dark side failed, but that she died away from him and before he was able to save her. He's still enamored of the dark side because he can still feel its power coursing through him, despite being somewhat diminished. It's like the difference between a flowing river and a raging river.
I don’t think he is impressed I just don’t think he has a choice.
This is, and always has been, my problem, ultimately, with Anakin's turn. In order for it to work, imo, he needed to choose the darkside, to embrace what it offered him. Instead the storyteller baulks at compromising Anakin 'the hero' by having him fooled into choosing and then, in some vague hand-wavy way, 'trapped' into compliance. There is, for me, a massive disconnect between Vader in the OT and where we're supposed to believe Vader came from in ROTS - precisely because of this. For this to work then the darkside becomes something like a magic curse...or, almost a form of possession..which kind of weakens the notion of choice (and ultimately redemption)...which is supposed to be central to the films.
But that's always been the case, hasn't it? I mean, Yoda did say, back in 1980: “Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.”.
The dark side has always been portrayed as extremely addictive or, as you say, possessive. This portrayal was reinforced by the introduction of Dooku, a former Jedi Master who fell prey to the dark side and never came close to returning from it.
In the Skywalker Saga, Anakin is a unique case because he manages to do what no one else does, what we are told cannot be done, thanks to the compassion of his son. After all that we've seen up to that point, his return is incredibly powerful. In fact, I feel that it strengthens the notion of choice; the notion that the power of spirit and will is ultimately stronger than the dark side.
I get that, absolutely, but....the way the story is told in the OT, it isn't like a possession, it's like a psychological addiction, as it is in real life; like, if you choose the easy option.....cut your enemies down then, it seems to work - that's the only solution you'll know. To view the other as inherently evil is to ignore that if your own actions reflect their's, you are no different. You simply become the evil you fight. Anakin didn't choose to defend order (though he gives it lip service), didn't buy into 'Empire'...he was fooled into thinking he could gain a power to save Padmé...that's his sole motivation. He understands Palpatine is evil and grudgingly goes along with him in order to save Padmé...so what's his motivation after that doesn't happen....why does he stop believing Palpatine is evil? Why does he commit himself to defending an Empire he helped create without the reward he desired?
It seems to me the only answer is 'magic'. I think that's weak in a story about choice....like, choice is a on-off switch you can make every twenty years or so...
I think he would’ve either killed her in a rage or taken her as his property, against her will.
I think it's a blend of the insightful things mentioned earlier. He has become trapped in something he no longer believes in completely and/or feels he can use it to defeat the one who betrayed him in the first place, the Emperor. The fact is, choosing to return to the light or not is a voluntary choice but it's harder the farther down the dark path you've gone and the more atrocities you've committed. It takes a lot of energy to silence the inner critic and even more to deny it exists, just like with any addictive process. It becomes a vicious cycle because after a while you dont know any other way to act or react even though part of you realizes it's not - never has -- gotten you what you want.
He's lying to himself, consciously or not. The alternative is facing the truth.
With Padme dead and The Jedi wiped out Vader literally had no place else to turn.
What choice did he have at that point? His former master had sliced him to pieces and his wife was dead. Even if he had turned away from the dark side again there was nowhere to go. Being the Emperor's pawn was the only realistic option left.
But....is that enough? Where else/what else would he do? What, other than help to produce a super-weapon, stand by while a whole planet is destroyed, all life on it wiped out? To be so committed to helping Palpatine oppress the universe because...he couldn't think of anything better to do? This is a guy we're supposed to believe is fundamentally good, who has an immense bond with the Force...and he feels nothing during the atrocities he and others in the Empire commit.....for a cause he knows is wrong and didn't buy into?
I just don't....can't..buy into it. He needed to be committed to what the Emperor showed him and offered him, the 'fooled into believing he could save Padmé' as motivation in no way produces the Vader of the OT. For me this is a fundamental disconnect.
He did support the notions of a dictatorship way back in the picnic meadow scene. Anakin tells her that he believes that people should be forced to agree to do things that are in their best interests, if they cannot agree on their own. This is why he supports Palpatine's growing power in ROTS and balks at the idea of not supporting him. Saying that Padme sounds like a Separatist with what she was saying about Palpatine. And after he has turned, he states that they can overthrow Palpatine and make the Republic be what it should be. The same line that he uses on Luke years later.
Hmmm...don't get me started on the awful writing. Once he learns who Palpatine is he understands that he has been behind everything...including the Separatists; the assassination attempts on Padmé, Dooku, the war...everything. He says that he would very much like to kill him. Lucas is very clear that what sways Anakin is the power to save Padmé.
This is supposed to be an inherently good man, who decides to do the bidding of someone he knows has taken everything away from him, used him and manipulated him, destroyed a countless number of lives....Anakin the "cunning warrior", the Empire's enforcer, feared throughout the galaxy. As I say, the only viable option for that Anakin - the Anakin who knows what Vader has done and is supposedly a good man...misguided but good - to be Vader is the rather weak 'its magic'
Not to mention, consider what a broken Vader is even capable of doing. Mechanized to the point of "more machine than man", and he can still tear his way through a Rebel ship in Rogue One. If you add in the canon EU with his destruction of Jedi as suited Vader and other exploits under Palpatine's tutelage, it also provides context. However, just sticking to the films, Vader has no reason doubt the power of the Dark Side. Saving Padme may have been the carrot (or the stick) that brought him to the other side of the tracks, but unbridled attention to the Dark Side apart from the rules of the Jedi regarding what is morally right or wrong gives him even knowledge to try to sell it to Luke in ESB.
It is the power to save her that prompts him to turn. I never said otherwise. But more and more as he goes along, he is swayed by the need for control over everything.
But what has he taken from him? He didn't take Padme from him. He didn't take Ahoska from him. He didn't kill Shmi. Used him? How did he use him? He didn't make him spy on the Jedi Council. Manipulated him? How did he manipulate him? Killing Dooku? He wanted to do that on his own. Destroyed countless lives, now that is true. But then, he will go on to destroy many lives himself.
To this point, the Jedi didn't do themselves any favors either. At the close of RoTS, they were corrupt hypocrites bent on killing an unarmed man who up until that very moment Anakin had seen as one of his few friends. Palpatines greatest trick against Anakin wasn't pulling at his heart strings with Padme, it was being his friend.
Another one of his greatest tricks was not even trying to convince Anakin that the Sith were the good guys. If he had tried to do that, he would have failed, because Anakin isn't an idiot and that would have been self-evidently ridiculous. Instead, he convinces Anakin that the Jedi and Sith are both in it for the sake of self-preservation and personal gain, and the only difference is that the Sith don't deceive themselves about it. That's a much easier sell.
I feel like even when Anakin was young, he believed that control and perhaps even dictatorship were the only ways to keep peace. I think this is pretty evident on Naboo in AOTC. I think Vader blames himself for Padme's death but still has these dictatorial political beliefs, and I think he is angry and hates himself and does bad things because of this, but also at the same time, I think part of him believes that ultimately his actions and the Empire will bring some kind of order and peace to things, and I think that's why he's still able to believe in the Dark Side.