Saga Why is Vader still impressed with power of Dark Side if Padme wasn't saved?

The omnipontent, sentient Force uses the Sith and the Jedi alike to its own ends. Both Orders are well aware of the fact and respond accordingly. The Sith "own" the Force to the limits in the same fashion they suppose it "owns" them, the Jedi duly noted that the Force restrains from direct domination of the subjects, with all the implements and cheats it has up its sleeve, in favor of unobvious guidance, and aspire to mimic the same on a lesser scale.
I've written elsewhere that neither Sith or Jedi had principal flaws, they both played perfectly the parts assigned to them. I understand that that idea will be considered stupid among the community, deep in studies of personal traits of particular individuals, if to look at the particular organizations as a total sum of wills of these particular individuals. Jedi purge and, earlier, Sith purge during their civil war proves that the Force does not care about such things, just uses them when the time is right, or - does not give it a go.
For the record, this idea came to my mind after watching Yoda ghost on Ahch-To. He really took sweet time and had fun in general, given the circumstances.

 

Which they all connected to each others.

Anakin having doubts about the Jedi played a role on why he made some rash decisions like attacking Mace in a moment of a desperation.

Mace ending up dead made Anakin feel that he was doomed ("what have I done?") so the only thing left for him is saving his wife which means accepting the dark side.

Accepting the dark side made Anakin so high with power that he felt he can take down Palpatine and rule the galaxy since he still want peace and order (he just doesn't care how he achieve them).

And why Anakin stayed Sith? Because once you fall, you can't easily come back and Palpatine was the only one who stuck by his side while everyone else "betrayed" him.

 

Except they don't.
Why Anakin stopped Mace is for one reason and one reason only, save Padme.
Remove her from the equation and Anakin would do nothing. He would not even be there most likely.
And saving Padme is suddenöy the all-consuming motive for Anakin, that is why he stops Mace and that is why he pledges to serve Palpatine. To get this "stop-death spell."
Oddly, Anakin does not react when Palpatine tells him that he does not have this knowledge and offers only some vague assurances that they can figure it out together.

Anakin had doubts about the Jedi, mostly why they distrusted Palpatine and were acting in a possible treasonous way towards him.
But once he finds out that Palpatine is a sith, the sith behind all this, that all goes away.
He knows now that the Jedi were totally justified in not trusting Palpatine and he even said that Palpatine will not give up his powers.
And he knows that there is no Jedi plot, he sees Mace try to ARREST Palpatine but Palpatine refusing to come quietly and instead trying to kill Mace.
So he knows that Mace did try to arrest Palpatine, something that Anakin was all for.
But when Mace switched to kill, for reason that don't totally make sense, Anakin argues against it as he needs Palpatine alive.
At most, one can says that Mace was the Jedi that Anakin liked the least as he was the one who often questioned him, doubted him and going back to TPM, was the one who said that he would not be trained.
So Mace has acted pretty ****ish towards Anakin more than once so Anakin probably did not like him.

Once Mace is dead, Anakin still needs to save Padme and so he serves Palpatine. But he might figure that the other Jedi would come for Palpatine and maybe him too. So taking them out makes some sense.
But his talk about the Jedi moving against the senate makes zero sense.

As for his sudden desire to rule, that comes out of nowhere and Palpatine has not really told him anything really practical about this "stop-death spell". And already he is planning to bump him off. Before he has even a hint about this knowledge that he is desperate for.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Expect they do and you just nitpicking.

There wasn't different "Anakins" through the movie.

Why he attacked Mace? It was a moment of a desperation. If the jedi proved that they can help him and if they weren't hypocrites, he wouldn't have made this rash decision.

Why he wanted to rule? Because he become so high with power and felt that he can take down anyone and bring peace. We already saw some of Anakin's view on this matter in AOTC.

And btw, the Jedi being hypocrites and how they played a role in creating Vader is a point for PT, not aganist it like some of you seem to think.

 

Well...he might have, in the moment, felt "high with power" and "felt he can take down anyone.." but...he ends up limbless and burning by the side of a lave flow so, the evidence runs against any 'feels' he might have had at that time. Not to mention that he ended up killing his wife, all in all it's not worked out too well for him.

You say there aren't different Anakins through the movie but.....he knows who Palpatine is and wants to kill him when he understands this, so - as has repeatedly been pointed out - he has no reason anymore to believe that the Jedi are plotting against the Republic; he knows that it has been Palpatine doing that all along, yet.... he agrees with Palpatine that the Jedi's first move will be against the Senate and that makes no sense given what we have seen occur. He later tells Obi-Wan that, in his eyes the Jedi are evil, again making no sense of what we have seen, what we know he knows. The story was changed at the last minute and...rather lazily imo, dialogue was left in there that makes no sense given that late change.

As for your last point, its a matter of opinion of course but....given that the movies are supposed to be about choice (and, actually, responsibility) it seems pretty weak to have a storyline which essentially boils down to 'they all made him do it..they were all so mean'.

 

And your point is?

To Anakin, both the Jedi and the Sith are hypocrites who used him as a tool for their war, but only one of them was willing to save his wife.

And he become so obsessed with saving Padme because of what happened to his mother which left a deep scar in him that he never recovered from. Because he made a promise on her grave that he will never fail in saving his loved ones again.

Once he accepted the dark side, he tasted power and FELT that nothing can stop him which MADE him arragont. So, he decided that he doesn't need Palpatine becuse he FEEL that he so powerful that he can save his wife and also bring peace which what he was fighting for the last THREE YEARS in the clones war.

And about your last point, it's up to your personal preference and not a problem in the movies. I'm glad that Vader isn't evil for kicks and giggles and actually give us a realistic look on how bad guys are actually born from bad environment, but that doesn't JUSTIFY their actions. It's just give us explaintion on what pushed them to these CHOICES.

 

He was beaten by his own hubris, which he acknowledges. Not that the dark side wasn't superior, as he knows it is due to Palpatine being able to kill three Jedi Masters on his own and defeating Yoda. Padme's death can be blamed on himself, yes, but not on the dark side since he wasn't able to stop her death due to Obi-wan's interference.

He knew that the Jedi were plotting to remove Palpatine from office and would go after the senators who had supported Palpatine, which Anakin also believes would include Padme and could be the cause of her death. Yes, he knows that Palpatine is evil, but he also believes that he is not absolute evil. He actually wants to make the galaxy a better place, whereas the Jedi want to continue the same failed policies of the Republic. The ones that gave birth to the war and to the slavery that he had to endure. That paints them evil in his eyes, because if they really wanted to make things better, they would have done it long ago.

 

So, the argument was that he, in the moment, felt powerful enough to take anybody down. He ended up limbless and burnt to a crisp - the evidence doesn't support his momentary hubris. He also kills his wife. Now you say he can't blame that on the darkside.... "It seems that, in your anger, you killed her..."

Given the question raised by the OP, all the 'feels' he got, momentarily, are proven to have been wrong-minded. The whole reason he entered into this bargain, to save his wife, the darkside didn't offer him the opportunity to save her, it is what killed her. Waking up from his high....why is he still impressed by the darkside?

Nice try but.... He knows that Palpatine has been behind the war, he knows enough that the Jedi are right to want to remove him from office - he even warns Mace Windu that he doesn't believe he will hand over his power. He doesn't have an issue, on any principle, with the Jedi removing him from power. He can't because...he knows what Palpatine is and what he has done. The war is not something the Jedi or the Republic created, it is what Palpatine created - and Anakin knows it.... How did the Republic create slavery? Tatooine was not in the Republic.....slavery is illegal in the Republic - stated very clearly in TPM.

You claim he doesn't think Palpatine is "absolute evil" and that he wants to make the galaxy a better place but...that's not what we are shown. He knows Palaptine absolutey is evil, which is why he would very much like to kill him; he is disgusted as he looks upon him and the only reason he pledges himself to him is for the power to save Padmé - that's it. Full stop. He doesn't give a flying f....fig about the galaxy.

Trust me, if that had been the story, if that is how his turn played out I could absolutely* buy that this Vader is the Vader of ANH and onward - but that isn't what we got, we got "I'll do anything you ask, just help me to save Padmé" and then a whole load of rambling disconnected nonsense - the remnants of the story that was.

*I'm talking ROTS only, I would still have to disconnect the whingeing brat of Ep2

 

No, they don't.

The turn was written and filmed to be one way. Then during pick-ups, it was changed and some new scenes were filmed or newer version of older scenes.
But some the original dialogue is still in the film.
So we have different Anakins, one that had pretty much turned when Mace and co came to Palpatine and an other that told Mace about Palpatine.

Their motives for turning is different, one was more about the Jedi, how he didn't trust them and all that and an other was 100% about saving Padme.
And either one can work fine, it is just that when you try to do both that things get messy.

Why he attacked Mace is for one reason and one reason alone, he needed Palpatine alive so that he could learn this "stop-death spell."
Anakin says this, "I NEED him!"
Remove Padme, and Anakin would not give two ***** that Mace was a bit of a hypocrite.
Remember, Anakin murdered Dooku and while he said that this was wrong, he still did it. And he didn't tell the Jedi about it.
Also, he had seen Mace try to arrest Palpatine and Palpatine try to kill him with his lightning.
Then Palpatine said he was weak but he never said "I give up, I will let you arrest me."
And Anakin saw all too well that this was just an act, Palpatine was playing him.

As only one kenobi said, Anakin knows that there is no Jedi plot, Palpatine is the one with the plot.
So him suddenly talking about the Jedi moving against the senate makes no sense.

To your last point, that is funny because in my experience here, the people that defend the PT are also the ones who most often argue that the Jedi are totally blameless when it comes to Anakin.
They did everything right, it was just that Anakin refused to listen.
I do think the Jedi share blame here, like for ex, that they left Shmi to rot as a slave and let Anakin worry about her for ten years.

Tool for their war?
The Jedi didn't start the war and they had no say in the senate's choice to attack the seps or use the clones.
That was all on Palpatine.
The Jedi used him as a spy yes, and he didn't like it at first but once he knew Palpatine was a sith, their actions were totally justified.
And the saving of Padme is the one and only thing that mattered. Had Yoda said "Oh a stop-death spell? Sure, you can find that one page 165 in the Jedi manual. You need to eat these big pills and drinks lots of water but other than that, it is easy." Then Anakin would not have lifted a finger to save Palpatine.
And this is again why it is so odd that Anakin doesn't react when Palpatine more or less admits that he doesn't actually have what he promised.
If you have an Anakin that turned due to distrust of the Jedi and him agreeing with Palpatine's ideas on how to rule and that Order was above other concerns and not so much about saving Padme, then yes it can work. Padme is just a minor reason for his turn.
But when the turn is 100% about Padme, his lack of a reaction is very odd.

Also, Anakin has no room to call anyone a hypocrite. He murdered Sand People and did not tell the Jedi. He murdered Dooku and likewise said nothing. And he also got married despite the rules that he knew full well.

Yes, that he turns because of the promises of a "stop-death spell" from Palpatine, that mostly works. It ties in with what happened to his mother and his promise at her grave.
So stick to it, have that be the reason.
And don't have Anakin for no reason talk about the Jedi attacking the senate and don't have him not react when Palpatine backtracks on his promises.

Anakin was plenty arrogant long before RotS.
So his arrogance is not really due to the dark side.
And Anakin was totally willing to side with an evil dictator and let the whole galaxy suffer just to that he can save Padme.
I don't think he cares about peace or how about the rest of the galaxy.
He cares about himself.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

In the Stover novelization at least, Anakin is really dwelling on Palpatine's accusations of treason by the Jedi Order - both before and after his attack on Mace:


"I ... can't. I give up. I ... I am too weak, in the end. Too old, and too weak. Don't kill me, Master Jedi. Please. I surrender."
Victory flooded through Mace's aching body. He lifted his blade. "You Sith disease—'"
"Wait—" Skywalker seized his lightsaber arm with desperate strength. "Don't kill him—you can't just kill him, Master—"
"Yes, I can," Mace said, grim and certain. "I have to."
"You came to arrest him. He has to stand trial—"
"A trial would be a joke. He controls the courts. He controls the Senate—"
"So are you going to kill all them, too? Like he said you would?"
Mace yanked his arm free. "He's too dangerous to be left alive. If you could have taken Dooku alive, would you have?"
Skywalker's face swept itself clean of emotion. "That was different—"
Mace turned toward the cringing, beaten Sith Lord. "You can explain the difference after he's dead."
He raised his lightsaber.
"I need him alive!" Skywalker shouted. "I need him to save Padme!”
Mace thought blankly, Why? And moved his lightsaber toward the fallen Chancellor.
Before he could follow through on his stroke, a sudden arc of blue plasma sheared through his wrist and his hand tumbled away with his lightsaber still in it and Palpatine roared back to his feet and lightning speared from the Sith Lord's hands and without his blade to catch it, the power of Palpatine's hate struck him full-on.
He had been so intent on Palpatine's shatterpoint that he'd never thought to look for Anakin's.
Dark lightning blasted away his universe.
He fell forever.


Anakin Skywalker knelt in the rain.
He was looking at a hand. The hand had brown skin. The hand held a lightsaber. The hand had a charred oval of tissue where it should have been attached to an arm.
"What have I done?"
Was it his voice? It must have been. Because it was his question.
"What have I done?"
Another hand, a warm and human hand, laid itself softly on his shoulder.
"You're following your destiny, Anakin," said a familiar gentle voice. "The Jedi are traitors. You saved the Republic from their treachery. You can see that, can't you?"
"You were right," Anakin heard himself saying. "Why didn't I know?"
"You couldn't have. They cloaked themselves in deception, my boy. Because they feared your power, they could never trust you,"
Anakin stared at the hand, but he no longer saw it. "Obi-Wan—Obi-Wan trusts me ..."
"Not enough to tell you of their plot."
Treason echoed in his memory.
... this is not an assignment for the record ...
That warm and human hand gave his shoulder a warm and human squeeze. "I do not fear your power, Anakin, I embrace it. You are the greatest of the Jedi. You can be the greatest of the Sith. I believe that, Anakin. I believe in you. I trust you. I trust you. I trust you."
Anakin looked from the dead hand on the ledge to the living one on his shoulder, then up to the face of the man who stood above him, and what he saw there choked him like an invisible fist crushing his throat.
The hand on his shoulder was human.
The face . . . wasn't.
The eyes were a cold and feral yellow, and they gleamed like those of a predator lurking beyond a fringe of firelight; the bone around those feral eyes had swollen and melted and flowed like durasteel spilled from a fusion smelter, and the flesh that blanketed it had gone corpse-gray and coarse as rotten synthplast.
Stunned with horror, stunned with revulsion, Anakin could only stare at the creature. At the shadow.
Looking into the face of the darkness, he saw his future.
"Now come inside," the darkness said.
After a moment, he did.

Anakin stood just within the office. Motionless.
Palpatine examined the damage to his face in a broad expanse of wall mirror. Anakin couldn't tell if his expression might be revulsion, or if this were merely the new shape of his features. Palpatine lifted one tentative hand to the misshapen horror that he now saw in the mirror, then simply shrugged.
"And so the mask becomes the man," he sighed with a hint of philosophical melancholy, "I shall miss the face of Palpatine, I think; but for our purpose, the face of Sidious will serve. Yes, it will serve.”
He gestured, and a hidden compartment opened in the office's ceiling above his desk. A voluminous robe of heavy black-on-black brocade floated downward from it; Anakin felt the current in die Force that carried the robe to Palpatine's hand.
He remembered playing a Force game with a shuura fruit, sitting across a long table from Padme in the retreat by the lake on Naboo. He remembered telling her how grumpy Obi-Wan would be to see him use the Force so casually.
Palpatine seemed to catch his thought; he gave a yellow sidelong glance as the robe settled onto his shoulders.
"You must learn to cast off the petty restraints that the Jedi have tried to place upon your power," he said. "Anakin, it's time. I need you to help me restore order to the galaxy."
Anakin didn't respond.
Sidious said, "Join me. Pledge yourself to the Sith. Become my apprentice."
A wave of tingling started at the base of Anakin's skull and spread over his whole body in a slow-motion shockwave.
"I—I can't."
"Of course you can."
Anakin shook his head and found that the rest of him threatened to begin shaking as well. "I—came to save your life, sir. Not to betray my friends—"
Sidious snorted. "What friends?"
Anakin could find no answer.
"And do you think that task is finished, my boy?" Sidious seated himself on the corner of the desk, hands folded in his lap, the way he always had when offering Anakin fatherly advice; the misshapen mask of his face made the familiarity of his posture into something horrible. "Do you think that killing one traitor will end treason? Do you think the Jedi will ever stop until I am dead?"
Anakin stared at his hands. The left one was shaking. He hid it behind him.
"It's them or me, Anakin. Or perhaps I should put it more plainly: It's them or Padme."
Anakin made his right hand—his black-gloved hand of durasteel and electrodrivers—into a fist.
"It's just—it's not... easy, that's all. I have—I've been a Jedi for so long—"
Sidious offered an appalling smile. "There is a place within you, my boy, a place as briskly clean as ice on a mountaintop, cool and remote. Find that high place, and look down within yourself; breathe that clean, icy air as you regard your guilt and shame. Do not deny them; observe them. Take your horror in your hands and look at it. Examine it as a phenomenon. Smell it. Taste it. Come to know it as only you can, for it is yours, and it is precious."
As the shadow beside him spoke, its words became true. From a remote, frozen distance that was at the same time more extravagantly, hotly intimate than he could have ever dreamed, Anakin handled his emotions. He dissected them. He reassembled them and pulled them apart again. He still felt them—if anything, they burned hotter than before—but they no longer had the power to cloud his mind.
"You have found it, my boy: I can feel you there. That cold distance—that mountaintop within yourself—that is the first key to the power of the Sith."
Anakin opened his eyes and turned his gaze fully upon the grotesque features of Darth Sidious.
He didn't even blink.
As he looked upon that mask of corruption, the revulsion he felt was real, and it was powerful, and it was—
Interesting.
Anakin lifted his hand of durasteel and electrodrivers and cupped it, staring into its palm as though he held there the fear that had haunted his dreams for his whole life, and it was no larger than the piece of shuura he'd once stolen from Padme's plate.
On the mountain peak within himself, he weighed Padme's life against the Jedi Order.
It was no contest.
He said, "Yes."
"Yes to what, my boy?"
"Yes, I want your knowledge."
"Good. Good!"
"I want your power. I want the power to stop death."
"That power only my Master truly achieved, but together we will find it. The Force is strong with you, my boy. You can do anything."
"The Jedi betrayed you," Anakin said. "The Jedi betrayed both of us."
"As you say. Are you ready?"
"I am," he said, and meant it. "I give myself to you. I pledge myself to the ways of the Sith. Take me as your apprentice. Teach me. Lead me. Be my Master."

 

Yes, Mace was attacked because Anakin needed Palpatine. BUT, him losing his trust in the Jedi and feeling that they aren't his allies anymore INFLUENCED his decision and it was the reason why he went to the office in the first place.

No, he was a tool for both of them since the Jedi used him too. They put him in the council despite knowing that he wasn't ready to be a master (and even told him as much) just to use him aganist Palpatine which blow up in their faces since it resulted in Anakin losing his trust in them.

Are you realizing that you further proving my point and disproving the "multiple Anakins" point?

The movie doesn't exist in VACUUM. All the events are related to each others from the first movie to the sixth movie.

Anakin was driven to the Dark side by Love and Family. He turned to the dark side and Palpatine because he loved and wished to save the one he loved, but the Jedi order kept him from doing so and their hypocrisy shaked his belief in them.

And Vader turned back to the good side when he came to accept his love for his son and made the ultimate sacrifice to save him. It's all "poetry" like Lucas say.

 

He realizes his hubris after he's been injured and is stuck in the suit. That he shouldn't have let his emotions carry him away and make a rookie mistake against someone like Obi-wan. That's why he later says that he was the learner, but is now the master. And no, he doesn't blame the dark side for Padme's death. He blames Obi-wan for turning her against him, which in turn resulted in his angry outburst.

The dark side didn't fail him with Padme. Obi-wan had betrayed him by turning his wife against him and thus resulted in her death. If Obi-wan hadn't told her the truth of what he did, then she wouldn't have been on Mustafar with him and she'd still be alive, because he wouldn't have been injured as he was. He's twisting all the bad things that he did and that he had brought on himself, on Obi-wan, rather than admitting the truth. He twists the truth to serve a narrative that he can live with.

I didn't say that the Jedi started the war. I said that Anakin doesn't entirely trust the Jedi Order anymore, because of the way they've been behaving during this whole affair. He doesn't see what they're doing as right anymore. They were willing to break the Jedi Code when it satisfied their agenda and he even says that he's not sure that he can trust their motives. That they aren't hiding things from him about the Force. That they don't trust him. He only warns Mace that Palpatine won't go quietly because he knows that a fight will end in death and he cannot permit that. As to slavery, the Republic turned a blind eye to the Outer Rim and abandoned it long ago. Allowing slavery to go on and in turn, allowed his mother to be left alone as she was. And the Jedi were no better for letting it go on and not doing anything about it.

He wants to kill him because he was lied to and because of the threats to Padme, but he also believes in him when he says that the Republic is not what it was and that he's the only one who could get it done. Yes, he does care about the galaxy. Just because he doesn't care in that exact minute, doesn't mean that he didn't stop caring. That's why he goes through with everything and even talks about taking out Palpatine, so that they can rule. He chooses to turn at that moment to save her, but he has other motivations. And with Padme dead, those secondary motivations become his primary motivations.

 

How do you work out that the reason he went to the office is because he doesn't trust the Jedi? The rumination scene is ALL about his thinking about Padmé - we even hear Palpatine's voice explaining that if he dies, the power to save Padmé will go with him - how, from that, have you figured his motivation is his mistrust of the Jedi? He goes to the office because of Padmé. He stops Mace Windu because of Padmé ("I need him"), he pledges himself to Sidious to save Padmé ("Please, I will do anything you ask just.. help me to save Padmé")...where in any of that do you see mistrust of the Jedi motivating his actions?

You talk later of the movie not existing within a vacuum but then treat his mistrust of the Jedi after they ask him to spy on Palpatine as if that exists in a vacuum. He tells Obi-Wan why he feels what he is being asked to do is wrong, and it's because Anakin sees him as a friend, a mentor and a good man. But then, once he learns who Palpatine actually is he can only understand that the Jedi were right to mistrust him. He isn't a good man. He knows that Palpatine has been behind both sides of the war. There is no war without Palpatine; the war is ongoing because of Palpatine. He knows this - that's why he would very much like to kill him.

Again, if he didn't learn that and bought into Palpatine's ideas, as the original turn was intended, his mistrust of the Jedi would indeed be a major factor - a mistrust that Palpatine would have assiduously worked on - then that would be fine, but that isn't the story that Lucas decided to tell. He changed it; Padmé is his sole reason for turning. I'll repeat it, because I think it's worth repeating: Once Palpatine reveals himself Anakin knows what he has done, what he is doing and the reasons he has for feeling that what the Jedi have asked of him was wrong no longer have ANY merit - he knows that Palpatine IS the war - that he is behind the Separatists, was behind Dooku, Grievous etc.

He absolutely knows that what he does from the point of maiming Windu is wrong, but he doesn't care because all he cares about is saving Padmé.... which, of course, he doesn't do.

He cared about saving Padmé. Full stop. What hypocrisy of the Jedi? His turn essentially does work in a vacuum - the vacuous nature of Anakin and his desires. He doesn't care about what is right or wrong, he knows absolutely that what he is doing is wrong but he is willing to do it to save Padmé - as Old Stoneface has pointed out, if any one of the Jedi had told him of a power to save Padmé he would have no problem with Mace killing Palpatine - he saves him to save Padmé ("I need him").

You talk of the hypocrisy of the Jedi here but, Palpatine here tells Anakin about this mysterious power - which we never see accomplished - and even admits that he doesn't know how to accomplish it (which makes Anakin's faith in his new master even more unfathomable) - so he offered Anakin something he knew he wanted to hear, but didn't actually have the power to accomplish it

Right...bottom line here. His sole reason for turning to the Darkside, as decided late on by Lucas, is to save Padmé. He commits atrociities, he absolutely knows that what he is doing is wrong (that's why we get the tear on Mustafar, as Lucas tells us). He wakes up from this nightmare having killed his wife, in his anger, so having failed miserably to accomplish the ONE thing he made his choice to commit atrocities to achieve - on the promise of a power Palpatine has even told him he doesn't know. He was defeated by Obi-Wan because of his arrogance, because of his belief in his own powers...and was more interested in killing Obi-Wan than saving his wife, which is weird enough in itself given that his sole reason for turning was to save Padmé - even the hyper-extended battle of the brothers makes little sense given the late change in scope of Anakin's turn.

Waking up from this, trapped in what is essentially a mobile iron lung because of the injuries he has received and having failed comprehensively to accomplish the ONE thing he turned for.....why is Anakin still impressed with the darkside?

Who were willing to break the Jedi code when it satisfied their agenda? You seem to be describing Anakin here. Is it because the Jedi are too strict in their adherence to the code or is it, now, that they are willing to break the code.....this 'the Jedi are to blame for their own downfall' is always a slippery customer isn't it?

I don't remember the Jedi breaking their code - if you're going to reference TCW series, I'm talking about the films here.

So, whatever Anakin may feel about how the Jedi have behaved during the war....that he may feel they could have been more decisive in their actions, for example - as he espouses the notion that more power for the Chancellor will mean decisions can be made quicker - all of that goes out of the window once Palatine reveals himself to Anakin. Anakin then knows that Palpatine has been orchestrating the whole thing - it was a war the Jedi could never win because Palpatine made it so. Palpatine IS the war. Of course....Anakin could just be really stupid.

He wants to killhim because he knows what he is, what he has been doing - that he is the war, the Sith Lord behind both sides - behind Dooku, Grievous etc. How can he believe in Palpatine's notion of the Republic not being what it once was and that he alone can save it knowing that he is behind the whole rotten mess? (Stupidity?)

His sole motivation is saving Padmé. He knows that what he is doing is wrong - there is no ambiguity in that, he does not believe that what he does is in some way right - except that he wishes to save Padmé. He does not care about anything other than saving Padmé - that's the story that Lucas decided upon, there is no secondary motivation that can become a primary one once Padmé is dead - that is the problem with the change in Anakin's turn - that's what I've been arguing all this time. Had thos other motivations been there his turn would make sense, but the way it is played, now that he knows what Palaptine is and what he has done,now that he knows that what he does to save Padmé - his sole objective - is wrong, there is no other motivation for him to fall back on once he fails in his objective. That Vader cannot reasonably tie in with the Vader of the OT.

If he had those other motivations I could buy into it, but because of the change that was made in regards to his turn - and again you've used dialogue that makes no sense given that late change as if it evidences other motivations - that he can't possibly have knowing what he now knows - in those lines he's justifying his turn to Padmé, because those lines are from a different story where she plays a less central role in his turn, and indeed he mistrusts her - the whole scene where he declares that she brought Obi-Wan to kill him makes no sense without that mistrust that Palpatine inculcates in him (see the deleted scene - the delegation of the ....however many it is)

Not only does that sole reason for his turn leave him with no secondary motivation to fallback on once Padmé is dead, but because of the lateness of the change a whole load of action and dialogue makes absolutely no sense given what he is now supposed to know.

 

Because he can still use Palpatine in prison without keeping him free which what we saw when he told Mace to not kill him and just arrest him. Anakin going there proved that he didn't trust them to deal with the situation without something going wrong.

It only work in vacuum if you watched out of context videos of ROTS from youtube and ignored the rest of the trilogy.

And yes, the Jedi are hypocrites.

1) They used a slave army (the clones)
2) Willing to commit execution without trial (Palpatine) despite it being aganist the "jedi way"
3) "Only Sith deal in absolute"
4) Lies and deceit, creating mistrust are the ways of the darkside - but also the Jedi. From Anakin's perspective, the Jedi were doing the exact same to him in regard to his mentor and friend, Palpatine. In fact what the Jedi were doing was treason, according to Anakin. Not to mention how they mainpluted Luke and lied to him about his father
5) They have no problem letting innocents die and suffer (Shmi, Han and Leia)

I can go on since their hypocrisy was there since OT.

 

No, all he did was for one reason and one reason only, Padme. The rest didn't matter in the slightest.

He was on the council because Palpatine made them do it. They might have been able to refuse but would Anakin take that any better?
Given how much of an ego he has, he would likely view that as an insult.
The Jedi did try to use him yes and they did that in about the stupidest manner possible.
But has been said, once he learns the truth, he knows that the Jedi were right to suspect him.

Nope, the Anakin that thinks that the Jedi would move against the senate makes no sense given the rest of the film.

[/QUOTE]

I would say that what drove Anakin to the dark side was first and foremost his selfish desires.
He wanted to stop Padme from dying because he didn't want to suffer that loss.
So it wasn't about what she wanted, it was about him, what he wanted, how he didn't want to suffer the pain of losing a loved one.
That those feelings arose because he spent ten years missing and worrying about his mother and the Jedi didn't help matters by refusing to lift a finger to help her. That I can see.
And the horrible way he lost his mother, I can very much see that he would not want to live through that again.

If he had asked Padme "Hey if I kill a bunch of children, that can stop you from dying, is that ok with you?"
She would have been horrified about that idea.
I think that even if she knew with total certainty that she would die and killing children would save her, then she would prefer death over that.

Anakin only cares about himself, so he is willing to sacrifice the Jedi, the whole galaxy even, to get what he wants.

But he has no real reason to think that Palpatine has what he is offering. He has no solid evidence that this power even exists beyond Palpatine's words. And once Anakin learns that Palpatine is a sith and has lied to basically the whole galaxy, then even more reason to take what he says with a huge grain of salt.

Why he turns back is because he stops being selfish.
He wants to save Luke, the son who still loves him despite all that he has done. The son that showed him that the dark side can be resisted.
So he saves him, despite knowing that he will almost certainly die.
But he is fine with that, he has finally stopped fearing death and accepted it.
He is at peace, for the first time in a long time.
He saves Luke for Luke's sake, not his own.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

The Jedi state that they may have to move against the senate, earlier in the film. Anakin, however, was not privy to that conversation:

MACE WINDU: I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi. The dark side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor.
Kl-ADI-MUNDI: If he does not give up his emergency powers after the destruction of Grievous, then he should be removed from
office.
MACE WINDU: That could be a dangerous move ... the Jedi Council would have to take control of the Senate in order to secure a peaceful transition . . .
Kl-ADI-MUNDI: . . . and replace the Congress with Senators who are not filled with greed and corruption.
YODA: To a dark place this line of thought will carry us. Hmmmmm. . . . great care we must take.

 

And more importantly is the chain of events;
1) Remove Palpatine from office.
2) Do something with the senate.

So under this "plan", the first step is the removal of Palpatine.
As long as that has not happened, the Jedi will not act against the senate.
Nor do they have anything much to gain by doing that.
Given how much power the senate has given away to Palpatine, it's importance is very limited as long as Palpatine is in power.

So the Jedi will still be trying to deal with Palpatine, esp in light of that he is a sith.
So had Palpatine said "The Jedi will not rest until, they have killed me. And they might try to kill you as well since you turned against them. So we will have to deal with the whole Jedi order."
That I can see Anakin agreeing with, if reluctantly.

But this talk about a Jedi plot or them moving against the senate does not work.
So just have "The Jedi will try to kill both of us and if you want my knowledge, you will help me destroy them."
Simple.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

He didn't trust that Mace and the Jedi Posse wouldn't kill Palpatine, which was why he went there. If he trusted them, then he wouldn't believe that they'd try to kill him and he could interrogate Palpatine on his own, once he was in the citadel. But what I was referring to was before then, when he wasn't trusting them.

But Anakin also still trusts Palpatine to help him, because of those years that they spent together, with Palpatine looking out for him and providing mentorship. Those things cannot be ignored by him so easily. He cannot simply believe that Palpatine never cared about him and his well being. He is loyal to people over principles and he was loyal to Palpatine, just as he had been loyal to him.

The duel between them happens because Obi-wan has come there to stop him and Anakin, who doesn't think that she's in danger because he feels that she is still alive, fights him because of that. Thus it makes sense. Anakin thinks that because he stopped himself from ending her life, that she will be fine. He has no clue that he has caused more significant damage with his actions, than a momentary choke hold.

Because it is all that he has left. He still feels power, even if it is a fraction of what it was. He knows that Palpatine still has more to teach him and thus he stays with him because he still craves power. The power to punish Obi-wan for his actions on Mustafar and the power to rule the galaxy.

I'm referring more to ROTS, than TCW, where the Jedi didn't really break the Code. It is in ROTS that the Jedi choose to let Anakin on the Council, without promoting him to the rank of Master, an action that would have been unthinkable not that long ago. Then they want him to spy on the Chancellor, an act that Anakin says is treasonous and Obi-wan doesn't actually deny and justifies it as the Jedi are at war. Then they want to remove Palpatine from office and Mace then decides to kill Palpatine, despite his being unarmed and as far as he knows, helpless. Earlier, he had said that it was wrong to have killed Dooku that way, yet now Mace was going to do the very thing that he was taught was unacceptable for a Jedi to do. That it was not the Jedi way.

Palpatine is the war, but he is also the solution. If he's removed from power, all that transpired before he became Chancellor would be restored. The corruption in the Senate would return again. The next Chancellor will continue to be weak and ineffective, because of the bureaucracy of the Senate. The Outer Rim will continue to be ignored by the Republic. Whoever replaces the leadership of the Trade Federation, the Techno Union, the Commerce Guild and the Banking Clan will be just as corrupt. They'll still have their seats in the Senate. Many of the systems that were part of the Separatist Movement will still be upset at the corruption in the Republic.

Because the corruption in the Senate and the Republic as a whole predated Palpatine's existence. He just exploited it to his own ends, in order clear the decks and create a stronger, more stable government. That's why in Lucas's early backstory for the films, way before he nailed everything down, one of the most consistent pieces was that the corruption set in before the rise of the Emperor. Anakin has seen it for himself and knows about the decline from before he was born.

 

With regard to the Senate and corruption: Your claim that the corruption in the Senate predates Palpatine is an odd one given what we are shown. Certainly to the point that the corruption leaves the TF to do as they please with Naboo, because we are shown pretty clearly that the whole thing is orchestrated by Palpatine - that's how he gets the Chancellorship, remember?

Now you could argue that he just made use of a pre-existing corruption, but then his rise to the position of Chancellor would be...just purely good luck? Is that what we're supposed to take from the movies? Really? I thought that we are supposed to believe that Palpatine is an evil genius. The level of corruption that actually means something ...like, you know, leading to war, has come about - just by chance - when Palpatine arrives after standing for a thousand years?

Also, if the Senate is so corrupt and dissolute.....why, then, does Palpatine spend so much time neutralising it?

In short, I don't believe that the story is predicated on the idea that the Republic was failing and Palpatine just happened along at the right time.

In terms of Anakin's thoughts on Palpatine: Once he learns that Palpatine is Sidious, has been behind the whole war, has orchestrated everything he wishes to kill him - he is angry with him. You say that he can't believe that Palpatine never really cared for him but....while I might believe that of a child or a half-wit, I don't think we are supposed to believe that Anakin is a half-wit.

The bottom line in all of this is simply this; that Lucas says that evil men don't believe that what they do is evil. Anakin, from the moment he cuts off Mace's hand, knows that what he is doing is wrong, evil. He can't justify it after the fact because he knows absolutely what Palpatine is and what he has done. By having Anakin turn for Padmé he has undermined the basis of what he claims he wanted to show. Anakin knows that what he does is evil.

 

The corruption was already there to begin with. Think about it for a second. Why would a major banking organization have a seat in the Senate? Or a trade organization? A company dedicated to making advanced Battle Droids. Imagine if the NRA, Facebook, Apple, Microsoft and Ford all had a senator or representative in congress. Not someone who was bought, but someone from the company was a congress person. Say Bill Gates ran for a senate seat and won. Think about how screwed up that would be. That's what was going on in the Republic.

Palpatine's plan was to seize upon the failing Senate, by taking control of both sides and exploiting them. He wanted to make the Senate look like it was incapable of dealing with the threat that the Confederacy represents and trick the Senate into giving him all the political power that he needed. that way, he comes off as a strong leader and can ultimately disband the Senate all together. And he wanted to use the Confederacy as scapegoats for his plan, so that no one would look at him. Remember, this plan was a thousand years in the making. Waiting for the right set of circumstances to bring it all together. There might have been a push, here and there. But it was all about the Republic's own internal corruption.

Not a half-wit. Naive. Anakin is loyal to people over principles and he truly believes that even someone as vile as a Sith Lord, is capable of being sincere in caring for him. And in the end, Palpatine was the only one in his view, who cared for him. Who gave him what he thought that he wanted. That he thought that he needed and he took it to heart. And in the end, Palpatine did care because he came for him when he needed help. Where was Obi-wan? Not there. He turned his back on him and left him to die. In his mind, Anakin believes that this is the true test of who was his friend and who wasn't.

Right, but as Lucas also pointed out, he's trying to lie to himself. That's why Lucas said that there is always this good in him, that fights back against his own lies. But once she's gone, he becomes fully consumed by his anger and hate and buries those feelings deep down.

 

Simply put, Vader feeds off the dark side of the Force because he's gone nothing else left.

 

Lucas explained this in an interview. Basically Anakin turned to save Padme and then once he embraced the dark side and discovered its power, he went from wanting to save the one he loved to wanting to rule the galaxy.

 

Palpatine is all he has left, what, you think he's gonna search out Obi Wan & beg for forgiveness?

Sent from my G3311 using Tapatalk

 

As time went one, Vader suppressed every facet of Anakin Skywalker to the best of his ability. Anakin wanted to save Padme no matter the cost, After becoming Vader and losing her, I would imagine that contributed to Vader seperating his former self on some level.

 

You have the full understanding of it as I do and why. Now that the part who loved her is dead, leaving only the rage. Rage needs only hate and violence to quench its thirst. Bending others to your will. Crushing the life out of those who annoy you with impunity. Getting your own Super Star Destroyer with a neat chillout pod so you can Skype choke morons all day long.. Find your son. Turn him so together you can make everyone do whatever you say. Isn't that worth the price of admission alone?