Why isnt there an election on Moderators?

Discussion in 'Communications' started by k3po, Feb 2, 2005.

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Moderators: JoinTheSchwarz, LAJ_FETT, Ramza
  1. SkyeLightrider Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 12, 2003
    star 6
    My PM box is always open. If there are concerns, let me know. I will look into them, and I can try to get them resolved.

    The point is, though, that users either don't realize that or don't believe it. We are suggesting a way for users to communicate with the administration in a manner in which they will feel they are being paid attention.


    I must agree with this statement. I had a problem with some users a while back about something or another (I don't remember when or where, this was years ago when I first joined) but I had PMed the local mod and I was told "I'll look into it."

    However, I saw no change to the situation, nor did I get any response from the Moderator... So I had made a thread about my problem. It was promptly locked with a "Please PM a Moderator" message, which I already had done!This portrays a bad message.

    From the Terms of Service:

    The Jedi Council Administration has the right but not the obligation to monitor and/or moderate the Forums, and offers no assurances in this regard. Isn't this a cop-out? Does this say that if the Mod doesn't care (or finds the problem irrelevant - most likely because they agree with the offenders) that no action would be taken despite a clear violation of the rules? If the mod doesn't agree with the rule, he/she doesn't have to moderate it, according to that statement.

    So Mod recieves a PM from a concerned user and automatically says "I'll look into it", then ignores it because they don't see it as a problem. Then when the problem is made public through a thread, the user gets in trouble?

    That's why I have to agree with the statement that PMing a moderator to fix a problem most likely does nothing, and why users don't PM to the Mods; it never does anything.
  2. Kimball_Kinnison Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    So Mod recieves a PM from a concerned user and automatically says "I'll look into it", then ignores it because they don't see it as a problem. Then when the problem is made public through a thread, the user gets in trouble?

    If you've contacted a mod about it, and it relates to a specific situation, contact an admin. That's what we are here for. They didn't just give me the fancy title and extra buttons for my devilish good looks, nor for the incriminating photos I have of Raven in a very compromising position (hint: it involves a flamingo, a zucchini, and a cordless drill). They gave it to me (specifically the Comms/PR position) so that I can help address problems with specific mods. If Katya (the other Comms/PR admin currently on maternity leave) and/or I can't handle it, it goes to Sape as the Head Admin. That's why we get paid the big bucks (10 times the normal mod salary).

    We are and have always been here and available to help with any issues.

    Kimball Kinnison
  3. Jesina_Dreis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    For example, and I used this once already, but I'll say it again. I know a LOT of people who are aware that they can contact their US Senator when they have an issue with something going on in the government. But most won't. However, if they get a survey in the mail, they'll be a LOT more likely to fill it out than they will be to call or email unsolicited, even though the option is always there. That's a fact. I've seen it in action.

    My point is, what is there to lose by trying this? You either:

    1. Have no interest and therefore no time is really lost on your parts, but the idea just doesn't work. Oh well. You tried, it failed, nothing lost. or...
    2. Have a lot of interest and time is spent following up on issues. Workload is increased, but probably not TOO significantly, but significant gains could be made.


  4. Honestly, what do you have to lose by trying it?

    Amos wrote: If anyone has a feasible solution, I'd be all for it. Heck, I'm open to suggestions to improve the process we have now.

    Malkie wrote: Then please, please repost your ideas for consideration by the current administration. I wasn't a mod years ago, I might not even have been a registered user when you posted your ideas. Granted, this was directed at another poster, but it's the same type of thing. A user said that they had feasible ideas, and Malkie asked for them.

    Malkie also wrote: Any reasonable idea will receive a decent discussion both by the mods and general users, then either a change or improvement to policy is created.

    Is this honestly an UNREASONABLE, UNFEASIBLE idea? Really? Because you've given reasons you don't think it'll turn out to be useful, but you haven't given a reason it couldn't be at least TRIED.

    I mean no disrespect, but it just feels like this is being sidestepped as unnecessary when, honestly, the users sometimes know better than the administration how they feel about the administration and what they will be responsive to.


    Jes
  5. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    However, I saw no change to the situation, nor did I get any response from the Moderator..

    Which in itself is an interesting observation.

    What I have run into a couple of times now, is when people PM me with a problem, and then expect, almost demand, that I solely follow their recommendation.

    What people also have to realize is that BOTH sides of an issue are looked at.

    Just because a mod gets a PM that says "user X flamed me, I want him BANNED now!!!" doesn't mean that specific action will be undertaken, nor that a problem even occured.

    Now, "getting no response from a mod" is a problem with that member of the administration. I think every PM warrants a response, or the system doesn't really work.

    However, that PM response still has to fall within our rules. Bans aren't discussed with other people. The full details regarding the problem may not be discussed.

    I'm not going to reveal to the person sending a PM that user X just broke up with his girlfriend, and that's why his post was hostile that night. I'm just going to send a response that says "I looked into the situation, and action was taken."

    I've had people argue with me via PM because I responded that I issued a warning when they wanted the other person banned.

    Or better yet, I've had people send off a nasty PM because they didn't think I banned someone, when in fact I did, but as normal users, they had no way to tell.

    A certain amount of trust has to be realized by both sides of the equation.
  6. BobTheGoon Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2000
    star 6
    Is this honestly an UNREASONABLE, UNFEASIBLE idea? Really? Because you've given reasons you don't think it'll turn out to be useful, but you haven't given a reason it couldn't be at least TRIED.

    What happens if something like a vote is TRIED but fails due to massive suspected voter fraud? I'll tell you what happens. The mods call the whole thing off when they see things have headed south, but the various social groups put their battle armor on and start clamoring for a recount because their guy should've won. Then the person who did "win", despite the cheating, is put on a pedestal and becomes a little martyr for people to point to every time they have a disagreement with the administration.

    Get a good, reasonable, and sound plan FIRST, then try. Going off half-cocked will only lead to problems down the road.
  7. Jesina_Dreis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    Bob This is NOT about voting. My posts are NOT about electing mods. PLEASE read all my posts before you say something like that. Or, at least, read the last few I've made. It would have made it clear to you.

    Jes
  8. MariahJade2 Former Fan Fiction Archive Editor

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2001
    star 5
    A Lit style survey shouldn't be a problematic thing for most forums and I think it would be quite workable. However in defense of the Fan Fic mods, maybe a little patience should be given to them. I don't remember their start dates, but it seems to me that most of them are still rather new. (Less than a year for several) There's been a lot of turnover since Jedi Galadriel left.
  9. -_-_-_-_-_- Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 6
    Bob This is NOT about voting. My posts are NOT about electing mods.


    With all due respect, you're in the wrong thread if that is the case.
  10. BobTheGoon Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2000
    star 6
    -_-_-_-_-_- posted on 2/5/05 3:07pm
    Bob This is NOT about voting. My posts are NOT about electing mods.


    With all due respect, you're in the wrong thread if that is the case.

    />

    Yeah, my bad. I thought we were talking about elections.

    My theory still stands, however./>/>
  11. SLR Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2002
    star 5
    As much as I'd like to see election, they are not practical on the board. There is no way to protect it from voter fraud. Also, mods and admins are volunteers and have their own lives. Any election would be extremely burdensome on their time.

    I've also come to the position that campaigning and in fighting would be extremely disruptive if mod selection went public.

    I think a better approach would be improving the communication between mods/admins and users. I think a new AC (with rotating members) would be a step in the right direction for getting users more involved in the process and for providing more accountability and communication between mods and users.
  12. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    SLR...
      "I think a new AC (with rotating members) would be a step in the right direction for getting users more involved in the process and for providing more accountability and communication between mods and users."
  13. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    I've sat back on this thread because I've posted the same thing for years now everytime this comes up. The thread almost always converges to the same conclusion. It's near impossible to hold elections in this type of platform. Here's how I feel we ARE elected as mods by the regular users. All mods originally registered as regular users and are nominated by mods of a forum to be considered as a moderator.

    Those mods were once regular users themselves. And to become a mod, one has to be accepted by the mods of all the other forums. It's like a mini-version of a real Senate hearing and nomination proceeding. We'll try to nominate several users and then we vote. People always PM me about standout users and it's always in the back of my head who would make a good mod. I could rattle off about 10 users right now in the 3SA who would make great mods. And those names come from my own personal interaction, observations, and recommendations from 3SA regular users.

    A mod IS in a sense elected by the users of the forum because the mods themselves started out as regular users. If a user has any sort of black spot in their history and a mod simply cannot allow that nomination to go through, it doesn't go through. This system works really well and I see this as an election system. The traditional sense that's being proposed really does not work. If it did, I'd back it and go with it. But it just can't on a messageboard like this one.
  14. Darth_Ignant Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 7
    My own thoughts mirror BTGs, they are almost parallel, in fact. I echo his sentiments on the issue, and saw his post as foreshadowing my own.


    Um...Sifo-Dyas.
  15. BobTheGoon Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2000
    star 6
    Darth_Ignant posted on 2/7/05 8:59am


    Um...Sifo-Dyas.

    />

    Comms isn't 3SA, thus your bait doesn't work :)

    But yeah, as usual Sape has this figured out. Realistically his is the most fitting explanation (and dare I say it comes from the highest authority).

    I'm sure Sape and anyone else here would be open to hearing about a plan for elections that is realistic and that has been thought through to its conclusion, not simply relying on a "try it and see what happens" mentality./>/>
  16. Miana Kenobi Costuming & Props Mod - Retired Admin

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2000
    star 8
    I am probably repeating what others have said before:

    I do not think it would be a good idea for the moderators to be elected. There would be too much favortism and voting for your friends and such, which would not be the proper way to chose a mod.

    However, I do think evaluations of moderators by the people in their designated forums in a good idea. It is no different than professor/class evaluations that we fill out at the end of each quarter. Granted, it is very time consuming, for we're talking about thousands of people, but it lets you see what the people think of their mods.
  17. Jesina_Dreis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
  18. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Jesina...
    "For example, and I used this once already, but I'll say it again. I know a LOT of people who are aware that they can contact their US Senator when they have an issue with something going on in the government. But most won't. However, if they get a survey in the mail, they'll be a LOT more likely to fill it out than they will be to call or email unsolicited, even though the option is always there. That's a fact. I've seen it in action."

    So, you basically want us to go out of our way to facillitate such users' laziness?

    If a user doesn't care enough to let us know something bothers them, then something obviously doesn't bother them enough to let us know.

    And the whole comparison breaks down due to the ease of use of the PM system here. If someone can post, then they can send a PM - there's no difference to the user. That's not the same thing as the letter to one's Senator vs. a questionnaire.

    So, if one has managed to make a post, but believes PMing a moderator is too burdensome, then I really have no empathy for them.
  19. Smuggler-of-Mos-Espa Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2002
    star 6
    For once, I agree with Genghis. This is a Star Wars message board. No users here shouldn't be expected to do anything more than follow the TOS. They're here on their own time and by their own choice, nothing more than what I named is their responsibility.
  20. Jesina_Dreis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    And the whole comparison breaks down due to the ease of use of the PM system here. If someone can post, then they can send a PM - there's no difference to the user. That's not the same thing as the letter to one's Senator vs. a questionnaire.

    You're misunderstanding me. My point is that there are a lot of people who don't think that the moderators care what they think. I used the Senator example to mean that people don't think that their Represenatives/Senators believe that their opinion matters. If they receive a questionairre, they are more likely to believe that their opinion is meaningful.

    I'm NOT talking about posting. I've said that about fifteen times. I'm talking about the administration showing that they care about users' opinions. That's ALL. I've said that. Several times.

    Forgive me if I'm coming across as rude at all. I'm just getting tired of saying the same things again and again because my words are being completely misinterpreted. I've said fifty times, there are a LOT of people who DO NOT think the moderators care what the users think.
    This isn't about laziness. This is about people feeling like it's not worth it for them to speak up because they'll only be ignored.

    Please, if there is a way I can make myself clearer, I'd appreciate if someone told me. Because obviously something is getting lost in the translation.

    Actually, on second thought, there's another thread that's talking about this. If you want to know what I'm arguing about, read the thread that's linked to in my previous post.


    Jes
  21. BobTheGoon Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2000
    star 6
    But you're still saying that the moderators have to compensate for the user's ignorance. I don't think that's a prerequisite for fixing problems on the boards. If someone cares enough they'll either PM a mod, who will wither address their concern or refer them to comms, or they'll find comms on their own. There is only so much you can do to help someone before it becomes impractical.
  22. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    I'm talking about the administration showing that they care about users' opinions. That's ALL. I've said that. Several times.

    And multiple members of the administration has said that they do care about users' opinions. SEVERAL TIMES.

    Forgive me if I'm coming across as rude at all. I'm just getting tired of saying the same things again and again because my words are being completely misinterpreted. I've said fifty times, there are a LOT of people who DO NOT think the moderators care what the users think.

    Forgive me if I'm coiming across as rude at all. I'm just getting tired of saying the same things again and again. It's been said fifty times:

    THE MODERATORS CARE WHAT THE USERS THINK.

    We have Comms set up to facilitate that interaction. We have the PM system that is set up to facilitate such interaction. We have periodic threads in the individual forums set up to facilitate such interaction.

    What we can't do is make that horse drink once we have provided the lake.

    If, after all the above, some people still think that mods don't care what they have to say, what can we do? Short of some sort of futurist thought-altering device*, we can't control individual thought.

    It's just that such concerns still have to fit within the parameters of board operations. Just because a mod listens to a concern, doesn't mean it is automatically practical to impliment.

    But you're still saying that the moderators have to compensate for the user's ignorance. I don't think that's a prerequisite for fixing problems on the boards. If someone cares enough they'll either PM a mod, who will wither address their concern or refer them to comms, or they'll find comms on their own. There is only so much you can do to help someone before it becomes impractical.

    Exactly.

    *=That feature is currently being explored as an add on during the forum move.
  23. LadyPadme Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2002
    star 5

    If moderators don't care what a user thinks by PM what makes anyone think a moderator would care what was written in a survey?

    I don't mind having a survey of what people think--I'd actually like to know, and I also welcome PMs with questions, comments, requests for help, but I don't think the survey will suddenly make moderators care or make people think moderators care.
  24. Jesina_Dreis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    And multiple members of the administration has said that they do care about users' opinions. SEVERAL TIMES.
    And I'm saying, yes, they've said this. In Comms. But a lot of users don't come to Comms. And a lot more don't even post here. I can think of several examples just in this and the elections thread that would illustrate why.

    Forgive me if I'm coiming across as rude at all. I'm just getting tired of saying the same things again and again. It's been said fifty times:
    Do you really want my honest opinion on that?
    I was correcting something that ANOTHER user - NOT yourself - misunderstood in my point. That was NOT directed at you.

    And the fact that I am pursuing this does not mean that I am not understanding you.

    THE MODERATORS CARE WHAT THE USERS THINK.
    We have Comms set up to facilitate that interaction. We have the PM system that is set up to facilitate such interaction. We have periodic threads in the individual forums set up to facilitate such interaction.


    I believe you. Granted, I believed it more before this whole debate took place. But others do not. Honestly, how are you, as moderators, able to say what the current users - the ones who are NOT moderators - see the administration staff? Yes, there are some who agree with you. But, clearly, there are some who agree with me.

    In the elections thread, it was said several times that if users come up with a reasonable idea, the administration would considerate. Please, forgive me for following through with that.

    If this doesn't work, you have lost nothing other than the fifteen minutes it takes to come up with questions and post them in a forum. What's the big deal? Honestly. Can you not spare fifteen minutes to try something new?

    I completely understand what you're saying. Apparently, I'm wrong to disagree with you on whether this will work. My apologies.
  25. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    I have all the 15 minutes you want to spare :)

    And seriously, in the forum I moderate, I'm constantly being disagreed with. It's part of the price of admission.

    But you know what else? I wouldn't have it any other way.
  26. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

    VIP
    Member Since:
    May 9, 2000
    star 6
    Hmm... so many Mods, so much free speech... :p [face_mischief]

    Really, people, does it matter?

    Mods aren't all-powerful... they vary as individuals in their attitudes and approach, but in the end, it's all just human beings dealing with other human beings... and, as with any other human interaction, everyone just has to try to negotiate a sustainable position vis-à-vis the people around you...

    I mean, take a look at my .sig - it exists for two reasons, both of them reflecting instances where my attitude has been slapped down by a Mod: to state my personal belief that the rules on interspecies relationships in JC fanfic should be relaxed; and to quietly spread around some subtle Anakin Solo/Mara Jade subtext... :p [face_whistling] [face_laugh]

    No-one, mod or otherwise, has ever expressed disquiet or discontent, or asked me to make any changes...

    - The Imperial Ewok

    EDIT: Part of me wonders whether there should be some sort of Central Committee of Grand Mods (a Modderence?) to deal with matters where a significant group in one forum disagree with a Mod's actions; but at the same time, I'm aware that that might simply lead to more decisions being made in reaction to percieved threat to the authority of the Mods (which is what tends to irk me in the first place), and I'm well aware that in the one case I did seriously think about "appealing" a decision, I later came to realise that the Mod in question was pretty much right... :p -TMcE
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