Why Israel Should Not Exist

The absence of any "right to exist" on Israel's part is obvious from its nature alone. By accepting the notion of a "Jewish state", we are affirming a commitment to racial and religious segregation, no better than the much-reviled South African apartheid system. Citizenship in Israel is defined on the basis of religion; Jewishness is the overriding criterion for gaining it, and all Israelis must carry a card which identifies them on the basis of religious belief. 90% of the country's land is marked Jewish-only, and ethnic Palestinians are ghettoised off in isolated communities--communities which receive minimal government spending. Because of this segregation, Palestinians' supposed voting rights are effectively worthless (not that those in the occupied territories, as opposed to Israel proper, are permitted to vote at all). Palestinians are considered so suspicious that they are required to use special license plates, and are barred from serving in the military. Israel rests upon the premise that the Jewish race requires a nation where they can explicitly discriminate against non-Jews--not a reasonable idea by any stretch of the imagination.

Supporters of Israel claim that its existence constitutes "justice" for the victims of the Holocaust. But even if we are to accept this principle of guilt by association and reparations between entire peoples, then the Jews should have been given part of Germany, not Palestine! Zionists also allege that the Israelis are merely taking back what is theirs--returning after thousands of years in exile. But the Jews' own "holy scriptures" relate the ruthless campaign of butchery by which Israel established itself the first time around. They didn't deserve the land the first time around, and they don't deserve it now.

The fact of the matter is that the UN partitioning plan was flawed from the start. Racial and religious separation was never necessary, and democratic, secular government which does not discriminate on the basis of either is the only viable solution. But instead the UN chose to establish a racist, segregated state, and--though Jews represented only 30% of the population--awarded Israel 55% of the land, confiscating it from Palestinians without a shred of compensation. Is it any surprise that the Arabs are hostile to Israel? Is finding such a policy objectionable "unreasonable" behaviour?

Israel has, throughout its history, acted as a ruthless military aggressor. Its supporters would have us believe that all of its actions have been "defensive"--but it is certainly news to me that "defensive" actions can involve annexing large swathes of neighbouring territory.

Let us begin in 1949. By the end of that year, Israel had taken by force what the Palestinians refused to give (55% of the land, with not a shred of compensation). Not content with these gains, it then expanded to encompass over two-thirds of what was previously Palestine. Eighteen years later, in 1967, it occupied the third of Palestine that remained and attacked nearby Arab countries, taking the Sinai from Egypt, the Golan Heights from Syria, and the West Bank from Jordan. When Egypt and Syria tried to take their own land back, in 1973, they were repulsed. In 1978, Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt and consented to offer autonomy for the Palestinians under Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, in return for peace. It would never honour the second part of the agreement, and in any case its ulterior motives were rapidly revealed. Later the same year, it attacked Lebanon, killing large numbers of civilians and seizing large territories. It supposedly withdrew from these seized territories, but it handed them over to an Israeli ally who permitted Israel's forces to continue using them. And even this did not last for long, for in 1982 Israel attacked and annexed the whole of South Lebanon, massacring large numbers of civilians in Palestinian refugee camps. Two decades on, in 2001, it began a new wave of occupations, using the resulting terrorist atrocities as an excuse to escalate its mo

 

There are two points of view for any issue. This is one of them. I am not going to argue that Israel is perfect or innocent, but all the blame should not be put on them. My question is, what would have happened if they had not fought back and gained more territory?

In any case, I do not see this problem going away until one or both sides is exterminated.

 

Both sides are guilty. Israel did not do everything. They are not "evil". (although alot of their policies are IMO.)

 

There was a little more behind the thinking involved in the creation of a Jewish state than simple "reparations" for the Holocaust. The Jewish people have been persecuted everywhere they've gone in the world throughout history, and particularly in Europe. People came the conclusion as a result of the Holocaust that it was simply not safe for Jewish people to live anywhere as a minority among people of a different culture, as virulent Anti-Semitism has seemed to follow them no matter where they've gone, or how humbly they've attempted to live. America is currently a very welcoming place to Jews, but if that were to change (something I don't see happening any time soon), and there were no Israel, what would happen to them?

I can't say with certainty that there's no alternative to the current state of Israel that would ensure the security of the Jewish people, but if there is one, I don't know what it is, and I don't think anyone else does either. Your suggestion to simply impose democracy and "let nature take its course" would not result in peace. The Palestinians would take control of the government due to their numbers, and you can be assured that they would immediately set about pursuing the destruction of the Jews.

In other words, there is strong argument based on logic and historical precedent that the destruction of the Jewish state of Israel which you're advocating would directly result in the extermination of the Jewish people as a whole- which is something that hopefully none of us here would be interested in seeing.

 

Why do you think that anti-semitism follows them? Because Jews REFUSE to try and integrate into the society in which they live. They flat out refuse to adapt to OUR habits (when they come and live here.)

When you refuse to integrate you will get prosecuted. If you work somewhere and refuse to talk with your fellow emploies they will not like you. If you go to school and you refuse to talk to your fellow students, they won't like you.

 

It is sad, and hard to believe, that Europeans continue to hold the same views towards Jews that they have for centuries, even after having seen (only 60 years ago) what the end result of those views is.

 

It's sad to see how Americans still hold the same racist views even though the Klu Klux Klan showed 50 years ago to which attrocities such views can lead.

 

Pakistan was supposed to be a great thing for the Muslims. Instead, the occasional zealot comes along and pours poison in the ears of the populace that they must fight for sovereignty wherever they may be, no matter who was there before them.

The British convinced Jinnah that they needed their own state to survive, and all that borders and nationalism have done is created another means to solidify the divisiveness that has allowed the few to profit from the misery of the many.

Whereas those in religious states blame their problems on the rest of the world, it is their own unwillingness to recognize the value of diversity, which provides healthy competition and economic progress. While it's true that America often tries to play world police, we are often asked to do so by those who refuse to solve problems they have let fester in their borders.

As long as Jews, Muslims or anyone else, continues to fight for sovereign, religious states, whereby the whole of the populace is under the influence of one point of view... these places will always remain magnets for poverty, misery and often autocracy or totalitarianism.

People are too easily convinced by clever, power-hungry individuals, to surrender what could be a happy coexistence for a dogma that promises social unity and egalitarianism but too often results in oppressive tyranny... Unfortunately, people are often too stupid to realize this before their freedoms have been taken away.

Afghanistan. Saudi Arabia. China. Israel. Pakistan... and so on. When have these monochromatic nations ever managed to "share the wealth" and power equally amongst their citizenry?

 

"Israel rests upon the premise that the Jewish race requires a nation where they can explicitly discriminate against non-Jews..."

This is why God punishes them so often."

 

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Are you talking about me specifically, or racism against American blacks in general? If it's the latter, which I hope, it is something which continues to decline with every passing year, and blacks and whites get along remarkably well in America, considering where we've come from. It seems the same cannot be said about Europeans with regard to the Jewish people. On the contrary, it seems as if the same old animosity, couched in the same old language, keeps coming back again and again.

In other words, the two situations are not comparable, unless you can say that Anti-Semitism is on the decline as opposed to the rise in Europe, which does not seem to be the case these days, even from your own statements.

 

The Jews make themselves a target, I'm not excusing the anti-jewish (correct term, anti-semitism is used wrong.) behavior but the Jews themselves continue to see themselves as the VICTIMS.

The Jews are always *innocent* to everything, it's just the *evil* europeans that hate them for being *different*.

Pure B.S. if the Jews did a little effort to INTEGRATE into society you'd see a big decline in anti-semitic deeds, same if Israel stopped being so damn hypocritic. You're not defending yourself by doing the same to another. As Ghandi said "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

As for the rascism thing, it isn't gone at all. Don't be naive. Although now it isn't really the blacks that are being targetted anymore. It's the gay people.

Have you ever lived here AJA?

 

Because Jews REFUSE to try and integrate into the society in which they live. They flat out refuse to adapt to OUR habits

The same can be said about Chinese, Hispanics, African Americans, Italians, Irish....Just about any immigrant and racial groups wants to hold onto their own customs. And they have their own little cliques, yet if you talk bad about them you get dubbed an insensitive racist.

Darkside_Spirit, I disagree with much of your interpratation regarding several events but I will agree that secular democracies are the way to go, but the title of your thread should be "religious states should not exist" instead of singling out Israel. Despite what you think they have exercised great discression at times, but everyone has a breaking point. I might point out that more people died on one day in one building in the US on 9/11 than all of your accusations against Israel over the course of 50 years. Does that make any civilian casualties acceptable? No, but it makes you wonder who is really wonder if Israel is really targeting civilians as you say they are, or if people are caught in the crossfire because the terrorists hide amongst them and use them as shields.

I most certaintly wouldn't let Israel be dissolved under the current situation because as AJA said; it would be genocide.

 

Also, Europe's "anti-zionist is being blown out of proportion. It's still a very small percentage of society that is truely anti-zionist. The anti-zionist parties aren't gettin more votes because people are getting more anti-semitic. There are other factors in that. (insecurity etc.) Fact: after these parties are elected they usually suffer large losses at the next elections and a decline in popularity.

EDIT- Tenor, I actually live in a very diverse ethnical neighbourhood, (my neighbours consist of Irish (my best friend for example) Russian , Moroccan, Turkish, American And I can safely say that they integrated alot more then the Jews that I know.

 

You know, its really odd. Way back when, England and other countries of Europe decreed that it is not Godly to charge interest on loans. So they said that only Jews can do it. So the Jews did. And were reviled for it. Did you know that the original inhabitants of the area now called Palestine were Jewish? It was called Judea then. People say that the Jews won't conform to OUR way of doing things. Who the HELL do you think you are to say that OUR way is better than theirs? We have no right to judge them for wanting to keep their culture intact. The Jews have managed to thrive in a world that constantly tries to wipe them off the planet. THey have done nothing to deserve this. If Bush would get the balls to go in and truly help Israel, instead of catering to the whims of the Oil companies, then the Jews would not have to live in constant fear. He even had the nerve to tell them to exercise restraint after the suicide bombings, yet we do not when hunting down our terrorists. What a hypocrite.

 

And how are they restraining themselves? And NO THEY ORIGINAL INHABITANTS WERE NOT JEWS! The land existed *gasp* before Israel was created 2000 + years ago.

I'm not saying it's criminal, I'm not even judging them for it, I'm just saying that it's what HAPPENS WHEN YOU DO NOT INTEGRATE!

IF YOU REFUSE TO TALK TO THE PEOPLE YOU LIVE WITH, IF YOU IGNORE THEM, THEY WILL DISLIKE YOU.

IT IS LOGIC.

 

There are different sects of Jeudiasm. Some are more traditional and others are quite integrated and don't even obey Kosher law. In my school you couldn't even tell who was Jewish and who wasn't, but you could tell who was Islamic. They have integrated much less than any Jew I ever met, but frankly that's cool with me. They have the courage to stick out because of what they believe in and I think it kicks ass.

 

>>"Israel rests upon the premise that the Jewish race requires a nation where they can explicitly discriminate against non-Jews..."

This is why God punishes them so often.<<

Keep in mind that I'm talking about the Jewish authorities, not the people as a whole, and not the entire religion.

 

I think it's ironic how everybody is saying that if you want to be an immigrant you have to adapt to the country, exept it seems when you are a Jew.

And I live around alot of Islamic people and the only way I can tell that they are Islamic is because they are of Morrocan and Turkish heritage. (which is ofcourse a silly method because not every turkish or Moroccan person is a Muslim and vice versa.)

 

I just ask that you learn the language. I don't ask Islamic women to stop wearing their dresses, and I won't demand that jews eats hot dogs and bacon.

 

You don't?! [face_shocked]

LIBERAL!

 

I won't either but I wish people would stop acting suprised about Jews being persecuted throughout history. People didn't just wake up one day and say. "hey, you know what, let's persecute the jews! it'll be fun!"

 

I believe that it's America's destiny to defend Israel.

 

Wait a second! There are ARABS who are CITIZENS of ISRAEL. Your opening argument Darkside is partially incorrect.

Israel has every right to exist. The conflict will only end when one side has been soundly defeated or until there is some sort of partioning of land and the building of a wall.

 

So Israel cannot exist because it's a Jewish state, but the dowzen or so other Islamic nations around it can exist?? Good luck trying to convince the Saudis, Syrians, Iranians, etc to abandon their Islamic culture and go to a strictly secular culture.

 

Israel does exist though.And is always going to exist.As most of you will know,i cannot stand the leaders of Israel and most of all Sharon.

However,although Jews use past events as a cop-out for arguement,they have been hated for thousands of years.They do IMO deserve to have a place where they can live in peace as their spiritual home especially after the horrific events of WW2,and not be attacked because of there Religion.

I do however think that the way in which Israel was created was gone about wrong and that the Palestinian people should at least have been given a state of their own.

IMO i think Israel should exsist,but so should Palestine !!!