Why Israel Should Not Exist

My view is it is both Israel and Palastine's fault. Neither of the them have made a genuine attempt at peace since 1998.

Some U.S. stations are pro-Israel, some pro-Palastine. I think CNN is more Palastine. I have seen a lot more documentaries on Palastinian suffering than equal amounts on both. I feel for Palastine, but Israel is suffering too.

 

My view is it is both Israel and Palastine's fault. Neither of the them have made a genuine attempt at peace since 1998.

You will get no arguement from me on that one!

 

Basically an all round terrible situation

-------
-Comic Book Guy

 

I agree with the original poster and think that we, meaning the US, need to get out of all this because it will destroy us. It's only a matter of time.

 

I agree again. If we are PHYSICALLY drawn into this conflict, it will just escelate, drawing more and more (potential nuclear powers) nations into the fray.

 

My view is it is both Israel and Palastine's fault. Neither of the them have made a genuine attempt at peace since 1998.

I agree that Israel, specifically Sharon has not made a genuine attempt at peace recently. I cannot blame them for wanting to end the suicide bombers, but I cannot defend the loss of innocent lives on the IDF's part either. Still I know the terrorist groups there do hide amongst civilians, but every dead mother or grandmother is one more person bent on revenge, not peace and a palestinian state.

The only out I see right now is for Israel to ride out those so infested with rage, while a third party does the policing of the west bank territories for them. Otherwise this will be a neverending tit for tat unless something unfortunatly drastic happens. I mentioned this before. This way the blood is not on their hands but Israel gets so resemblance of justice. Unfortuantly do to the spin machines and conspiracy theories in the region, this cannot be the US or the UK. I think only an Islamic UN country can do the job. The question is, who will volunteer and will Israel let them in the borders?

 

The answer to the second part of the question can easily be guessed : a flat no

 

I doubt that any neutral country would be crazy enough to volunteer for such a role and Israel simply wouldn't allow it.

 

I think that 3rd party peacekeeping is vastly overrated in this case. For any sort of sustainable peace, the two States will need to mutually assure each other of security for peace to exist.

Secondly, given that the majority of suicide attacks are at explicitly civilian targets, it is unlikely 3rd party peacekeepers would have any sort of effectiveness preventing that sort of attack. This position is just a thinly veiled argument that Israel should sit back and take repeated attacks on unarmed combatents like the good jews, instead of engaging in retaliatory attacks on armed opponents.

For the Palestinians, 3rd party peacekeepers will be the ones policing their borders and harrassing their population in an attempt to defang Hamas, and will be seen to be acting in Israel's interest. Moreover, it prevents the development of a security apparatus within Palestinian territories, which will have to emerge upon Statehood to perform...peacekeepers will not be expected to stay in perpetuity.

 

Once again, you talk a lot about atrocities where the Palestinians are responsible and don't mention the ones for which Israëlis are responsible.

NEITHER side wants peace at the moment, only some invidual on both sides of the fence, whose numbers dwindle with each new attack. Hamas gathers support as it is seen doing something to fight Israeli soldiers, whereas Arafat's stance is seen as weak, because he doesn't want to wage a war for peace. On the other side of the fence, racism against Palestinians grows with each suicide attacks, and support for the Likud party stays steady at a high level, giving almost a free rein to a Prime Minister leading a party that clearly states in its manifesto that its goal is Eretz Israël.

It is no mere peacekeeping that will have everything stop. In order to be really efficient today, we would have to impose peace on both sides, and in order to allow two states to coexist, we would have to make them start from the same point. It's sad to say, but I see little other means to have Israeli and Palestinians sit at the same table now, if not because they'd be oppressed by a third party and both their states little more than a fleeting dream kept out of their grasp by an oppressor after both states, whether existing or potentially existing, would have been wiped off the charts.

 

Well, I'll add my own thoughts.

I didn't even want to bother with this thread because it seems like a good deal of Jew bashing waiting to explode, as I have seen in other threads in the past.

And more recently, a member of these boards, GrandAdmiralPelleaon,
slams us because we want to keep our culture intact and many of us choose not to assimilate. Get over it. You really show your ignorance and you made me lose all respect I had for you when you started attacking us because we don't pick up on your supposed habits.

I will say this. I do not agree with everything Israel does. I think both sides are just as guilty.

On one hand, you have the suicide bombers and terrorists. Then on the other hand, you have the Isreali army and police using barbaric means to eliminate a target. Example, send a missle and blow the bulding up. Sure, civillians might get hurt, but the target will be eliminated.

And I for one, think that the Isreali army is trigger happy. I am sorry, but gunfire is not the way to respond to STONE THROWING.

Even worse when you have teens and kids throwing stones. So they shoot to defend against stones.

Both sides are guilty. The Palestinians do just as horrible things.

I am not a self hating Jew, but I do not agree on a Jewish state. Nor do I agree with a Palestinian state. I do not agree on any religious state at all, no matter the faith. That land should be a free land that belongs to everyone, because it is the holy land for 3 of the world's major religions. It belongs to all.

And I will also agree that many Jews are quick to scream out anti-semite with anyone that disagrees with them or is not pro Israel. Ridiculous.

I am not a Zionist. And I don't think everyone should be forced to be.

Now, GrandAdmiralPelleaon, I will say that you have some serious issues if you expect me or anybody else to assimilate into your culture. It's not going to happen. While reform Jews will do it, do not expect conservatives or orthodox Jews to do it and they have a right not to. They have their own culture and world. And if you say they deserve prosecution because of this, then you have some problems and I would appreicate you keep these thoughts to yourself. There are many Jews on these forums.

 

son_of_the_tear, why do you address, then attack a member of these boards (GrandAdmiralPelleon) who hasn't posted anything here (in this topic thread) since August 8th (I checked)? Are you just not letting something go from that past disgussion, or are you just trolling?

 

Trolling?

Um, whatever. I have been here way longer than you, I am not a troll and am an active member for years.

I attacked one member on this board because his responses were just plain horrible.

I did not curse him or flame him. This thread was up on the first page. I decided to read through it because I avoided it at first because I had a feeling there would be some slamming of the Jews.

And I was right. By one poster who made some rather immature comments.

Who are the others I attacked?

Name them. Please do.

You can't.

I did mention that in the past I would get disgruntled at a thread involiving this subject because sooner or later some posters would start attacking the Jews as a whole instead of sticking to the subject, which is the Isreali's government policies.

And that has happened. Even back when these type of threads poped up in JCC, before there was a Senate.

There was always one or two that made some immature comments.

In this thread, there was one.

And I don't that he made that comment a month ago. The comment still stands.

So before you call me a troll, back that up.

I have been here since 98 and am an active member. And I did nothing that could even be deemed "trollish" behavior.

How about you look up the definition of the word "troll".

Go do that.

 

Please tone it down here.

 

For those of you who don't feel a democratic stronghold should exist in the midst of a region devoid of human rights, please check out NYTime's op-ed columnist T. Friedman's take on the issue. I posted it in the 'foreign policy toward non-democ. countries' thread.

Irregardless of ethnicity issues, Israel is the only stronghold of democratic ideals in the middle east and should be defended and protected as such.

 

I too have noticed GAP's propensity toward anti-jewish statements/sentiments and I knew that sooner or later they were going to be addressed by someone who came across them. Is it any wonder that someone who takes an untenable position is called on it?

 

KnightWriter, don't ask me to tone it down.

I am conducting myself in a suitable fashion.

Someone makes an immature comment, I will say so. I will not take a slam against my culture lightly. I don't care. And I will not have some newbie, even if you are a mod, telling me otherwise.

My tone is just fine. If someone pulls a punch against a religion through ignorance, I will call them on it. Especially since it has to do with my religion.

 

I agree, Son_of_the_Tear. You should be able to defend yourself and your beliefs.

 

I know the facts. the UN exceeded its mandate here and made a poor decision in any case.

Whoa, hold your horses here. The UN, a brand new organization that was created specifically to solve problems of this sort to help avert war, was trying to just that. It did the best it could. I'm not saying the decision was apolitical, because the UN was trying in this instance to show that it could work, but they all had to start somewhere. Just what would you have done? Do you have any solutions, or just anti-Israeli criticisms ?


The Arabs who lived in the area had the right to determine their own future, but the UN chose to legitimate a foreign invasion which was already basically in process in the waves of Zionist immigration.

I see. Were the jews who were refused the right to return to their european homes after WWII out of line, or are the survivors of a mass extermination campaign whose properties have been seized only allowed to expect to get their lives back if they aren't "zionist.

any plan which allows Israel to continue to exist in some form and recognizes its legitimacy is very, very generous.

Israel has as much right to be there as any arab state. If half a dozen muslim theocracies can exist in the middle east, so can a small jewish one. I will not get into a historical slugging lesson over who "belongs" there, because we will not agree on it. It is very easy to beat up on the jews because they are a minority. Where would you put the jews? The moon?

no, it wasn't. the Israeli patches of control were both strategically placed in such a way that they compromised Palestinian security, and Israel included a security clause that denied the Palestinians full control of their own airspace and gave Israel permission to invade when they felt that their security was threatened (i.e. at will) while curtailing Palestinian military developments. it also denied the right of return, which is crucial and cannot really be up for debate.

So, Israel was concerned that after decades of terrorism and war, the palestinians just might form military alliances with, and import weapons from, countries which have aligned themselves with groups whose sworn mission was to destroy Israel. Arafat headed such a group, if you recall. In regards to your second point, any such maneuver would result in an arab takeover of Israel, and probably a 'persecution reversal' as 'payback'. I don't think you can ask any country to willingly commit suicide, and the right of return would do just that. The returned citizens would demand voting rights, and vote Israel out of existence. That is a crucial point and not up for debate.

the current intifadeh was actually triggered by Sharon going to a disputed site during a really tense time and shooting his mouth off about Israeli sovereignty. he tossed the spark in the powderkeg. i have no doubt that he knew exactly what he would be causing, and did it to make conditions favorable for his return to power.

Nonsense. Sharon was guilty of bad timing, but Arafat had been planning to re-start violence as soon as he realized that he wasn't going to get the right of return and total control of jerusalem. I don't care how you try to spin it; Arafat refused to compromise, instead betting that violence and international media attention would force Israel to capitulate to whatever demands he wished. His actions were a total miscalculation for the palestinian people; they catapaulted a hard-liner like Sharon right into power. They made his policies popular for a time. They helped create the current stalemate which neither man is interested in breaking. I worry a lot less about Sharon's mouth than Arafat's brain.

Arafat tried to contain the violence. however, Israeli retaliations made it impossible for him to do so without appearing to become an Israeli lapdog and a collaborator, and, moreover, cut the PA forces to ribbons so he didn't really have any forces to enforce the peace with, so he stopped trying and eve

 

Did I miss something? Who verbally attacked "Jews"? I have stressed with ALL of my posts critizing Israel, that their GOVERNMENT has gone too far many times in my opinion. I haven't seen ANY Jew-bashing in here, so what's the big stink?

Also, check out this article We'll demolished your buildings and attempt to kill you, then give you water???

The whole situation over there is bizarre. I wonder if anyone on both sides realize how moronic they seem through the eyes of the world media?

 

It was waaay back in August, apparently, ferelwookie, rediscovered by someone more important than us, since he's been here longer.

Yeah that was a slight jab. My apologies.

 

Phew. For a second I thought you guys were referring to me.

I'm trying to leave the "jews" out of this, per se.

Yeah, Cheveyo, no kidding. They're both like two little kids screaming "mine!".

It's more than a little ridiculous.

Peace,

V-03

 

And of course they're fighting over such quality land!

(Yes, I understand it is "holy" land, but it farming/natural resources...it's relatively worthless.) The whole thing is pathetic. It's sad that people never seem to learn from the previous generation's mistakes.

 

Responses from around the worldto the situation in Ramahalla: Ramahalla

Again, it's strange that only the U.S. seems to support this action.

 

Responses from around the world to the two suicide bombings a few days ago: zero

Its strange that only the US seems to condemn this action.