Why Luke alone MUST confront Vader

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by cymbalmonkey, Oct 1, 2005.

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  1. cymbalmonkey Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2005
    star 1
    I was watching ROTJ right now, and I suddenly had an epiphany, and i realized exactly WHY Obi-Wan and Yoda want Luke to confront Vader ... note that they never say he must Kill or destroy Vader or the Emperor ...

    Luke was not a Jedi yet, by the time he visits Yoda in ROTJ ... Luke thinks he's a Jedi ("Then i am a jedi") ... of course, Yoda scoffs at him because he has not passed the one essential test or "Trial" for a Padawan to become a Jedi Knight ... "One thing remains ... Vader, you must confront Vader ... then, only then, a Jedi will you be."

    Replace Vader with the word FEAR ...

    When Ben and Luke talk sortly after Yoda passes into the force, Obi-Wan again stresses Luke must Face Vader ... Luke responds that he can't kill his own father ... Obi-Wan says "Then the Emperor has already won ... you were our only hope." Obi-Wan wasn't talking about killing "his own father," rather, he was talking about confronting his fear ... if Luke was refusing to confront his fear, then indeed, the Emperor had won, because Luke would follow the path of another Jedi who refused to confront his fears -- Anakin Skywalker. because Ben always is so cryptive, and speaks in points of view, i must take a leap of faith and say they (he and yoda) trained Luke to 1. help Vader fulfill his destiny as the Chosen One (i think they still believed) and destroy the Sith and 2. Rebuiled the Jedi Order ... I believe they thought Anakin could be redeamed and that all that mattered in Obi-Wan's and Yoda's mind, was for Luke to become a Jedi Knight and continue the Order ... These are Yoda's last words, not 'good luck killing vader and palps.'

    Here's the key: You cannot become a Jedi Knight unless you confront And Conquer your fears ...

    Obi-Wan confronted his fears as a Padawan in the duel with Maul in the TPM ... for a moment he did give into the dark side, but in the end, he conquered those fears, destroyed Maul and the council recognized this and made him a Jedi Knight ...

    To become a Jedi Luke must confront his greatest fear -- Darth Vader

    It is stressed through out the Saga that FEAR IS the path to the Dark side ...

    Remember Anakin ... he was afraid of Dooku ("i sense great fear in you Skywalker"), he was afraid to lose his mother, he was afraid to lose his wife, to lose his mentor (Palps), he was death afraid to fail, he was afraid of death ... he never conquered those fears AND FELL ...

    In ESB Luke says he won't fail Yoda because he wasn't afraid ... Yoda responds, "You will be, you will be."

    Indeed, Luke was terrified in his confrontation with Vader in the cave ... at first, afraid of death, just as his father and Obi-Wan had died at the Sith Lord's hand, and afraid to fail in his quest to avenge their deaths ... of course, like Yoda said in TPM, Fear leads to Anger ("anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering") and Luke struck Vader dead in a dark flurry ... and Luke finally realized his greatest enemy, his greatest fear -- himself becoming Vader ...

    Luke's failure at the cave proved to Yoda that Luke was not ready to truly face his fear and that was why he begged him not to go to Bespin ... they believed they would create another Vader ...

    By the time of ROTJ, Luke has learned the truth of his father's destiny, and while he might not have been ready for the burden, Luke learns much from his mistake, matures and only now realizes how close his vision in the cave may become a reality ...

    During the Duel on Bespin, Luke's decesion to rather fall to his death than fall to the dark side and join Vader, point out to Yoda and Obi-Wan that soon, Luke would be ready to face the trials to become a true Jedi Knight ... to confront his fear ... and this time conquer it

    Even Luke realizes the trial he has faced and passed when he throws down his saber and refuses to join the Emperor when he declares: "I am a JEDI, like my father before me."

    He had truly become a Jedi at that moment, by conquring his fear
  2. ObiWan506 Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2003
    star 7
    I get your points, and I like them.

    So basically by conquering your fear you can then fully control your actions with fear, right? What about the Sith? Do you think they conquer their fear? Or is that part of their weakness?
  3. cymbalmonkey Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2005
    star 1
    I didn't think of it like that but ... Exactly! ;) The weakness of the Sith is that, not only does fear control them, but their EMOTIONS control them, unlike the Jedi, who are in control of their emotions ... Part of the Rule of two is the fact that the Sith are afraid to lose their power, much like Palpatine claimed the JEDI were in ROTS ... Perhaps if VADER and SIDIOUS truly worked together, rather than fear losing their power or having the other betray them, they could discover how to cheat death and do all sorts of grand things ... that's why the Republic lasted over a 1,000 generations, according to Ben, under the Jedi, while Palps "New Order" lasted 25 years
  4. ObiWan506 Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2003
    star 7
    Yes! Great example. Similar to this we also have Anakin's greed to keep Padme alive, which is another example of selfless, uncontrollable emotions. Not only that, but the example of Death as well. The Sith fear death, they want to find a way to defeat and control it. The Jedi are passive & embrace their fate that The Force gives them. In the end, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Anakin and Qui-Gon are the Jedi, that we know of, who were able to retain their identities after Death ... and the Sith never accomplished this because their own greed and selflessness blinded them.

    So, like you said, it's the ability to conquer Fear ... but I also think it's the ability to be passive and accept the fate The Force has given you.
  5. cymbalmonkey Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2005
    star 1
    So, like you said, it's the ability to conquer Fear ... but I also think it's the ability to be passive and accept the fate The Force has given you.[/quote]

    I wouldn't say "fate" exactly (because in the end "there is no fate but what we make for ourselves") but the paths the Force has layed before you ... I believe the Jedi accept there are simply things in the world they cannot control, and they can only deal with things that they can control ... that is why in ROTS Yoda said not to mourn those who do die, and "rejoice" but at the same time that doesn't mean it's okay to let people die ... if the Jedi could have saved Padme, they would do so or die trying, just as long as it was within their control ... however, it was out of their control, and you can't live in anger and bitterness because you can't control everything, because you would be destroyed ... this was Anakin's flaw, he couldn't accept there were things he couldn't control ... and i'm not surprised that this eventually not only lead to Anakin wanted to control death, but to overthrow the Emperor and control the Galaxy ... i'm sure this is the flaw of the Sith as a whole ...

    "Twilight is upon me ... and soon ... light MUST fall ... that is the way of things ... THE WAY OF THE FORCE." -- Master Yoda

  6. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    I wouldn't say "fate" exactly (because in the end "there is no fate but what we make for ourselves") but the paths the Force has layed before you ... I believe the Jedi accept there are simply things in the world they cannot control, and they can only deal with things that they can control ... that is why in ROTS Yoda said not to mourn those who do die, and "rejoice" but at the same time that doesn't mean it's okay to let people die ... if the Jedi could have saved Padme, they would do so or die trying, just as long as it was within their control ... however, it was out of their control, and you can't live in anger and bitterness because you can't control everything, because you would be destroyed ... this was Anakin's flaw, he couldn't accept there were things he couldn't control ... and i'm not surprised that this eventually not only lead to Anakin wanted to control death, but to overthrow the Emperor and control the Galaxy ... i'm sure this is the flaw of the Sith as a whole ...

    "Twilight is upon me ... and soon ... light MUST fall ... that is the way of things ... THE WAY OF THE FORCE." -- Master Yoda

    [/quote]

    Not to be a nitpick, but it's "Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall.."
  7. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    I like the argument but disagree. I don't think Luke is ever afraid of Vader.
    He isn't afraid of Vader when he watches him cut down Obi Wan.
    He isn't afraid of Vader when he confronts him on Bespin.
    He isn't afraid of Vader when he surrenders to him on Endor.
    Luke had to face Vader because only Vader could have turned Luke to the darkside,
    ala finding out about Leia. It almost worked, but Luke threw his weapon down.
    Throwing down his weapon was his moment of becoming a Jedi. That's why he failed
    in the cave on Degobah. He couldn't allay his aggression and recklessnes.
    One could argue that fear plays a role in Lukes aggresiveness, but I don't ever
    see Luke afraid of Vader.
  8. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Only a fully-trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor.-Yoda

    This quote suggests that Yoda and Obi-wan wanted Luke to kill both Vader and the Emperor because 1)the futures of both the galaxy and the Jedi Order are at stake and 2) not once did they tell Luke that he must save Vader nor do they believe that he can let go of the Dark Side because they don't think that it can be done. They never seen a Jedi who is corrupted by the Dark Side be able to reject it before so they have no reason to believe that Vader will be any different and when Luke says that he won't kill his father, why didn't Obi-wan correct him? If he didn't want Luke to kill Vader, then he should've said "Whoa there, who said anything about killing Vader? We just want you to talk some sense into him so that he would understand that he was wrong to join up with Sidious and be forced to kill him and fulfill the prophecy".

    Instead, he says "then the Emperor has already won" as a way to warn Luke of what will happen if he didn't fight Vader again.
  9. Lynch69 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2005
    star 1
    Yes to overcome his fear.
  10. cymbalmonkey Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2005
    star 1
    If he didn't want Luke to kill Vader, then he should've said "Whoa there, who said anything about killing Vader? We just want you to talk some sense into him so that he would understand that he was wrong to join up with Sidious and be forced to kill him and fulfill the prophecy".

    Instead, he says "then the Emperor has already won" as a way to warn Luke of what will happen if he didn't fight Vader again.[/quote]


    "I will do what I must." -- Obi-Wan, ROTS

    True, if Vader couldn't be turned, of course, Luke would do what he must. A Jedi doesn't enter a fight to kill their opponet ... "Destroy[ing] the Sith" as Yoda said in ROTS doesn't mean the Darth's deaths ... if they surrender, the order would be destroyed ... if they resisted, then they would "do what they must." But the point is, Luke has to confront Vader like Obi-Wan had to confront him in ROTS and ANH ... not only was it Luke's destiny, but to achieve the status of Jedi Knight, Luke had to pass the trials ... sure he can bulid a lightsaber, force choked Jabba's guards, and massacre 30+ hench men on a sail barge ... Yoda scoffs at him in the hut because Luke thinks he is a Jedi because he can do those things, but, again, one thing remains ... here's the point: not every Padawan has to kill a Sith Lord to become a Jedi Knight; sure, it worked out for Obi-Wan but ... to become a Jedi Knight, you must pass the trials -- you must pass your own cave scenerio ... when Luke entered the cave he carried "only what he took with [him]." it very well could have been Uncle Owen standing there, telling him to stay on the farm another season, but it was Darth Vader, so that proves the point that Luke was afraid of Vader ...
  11. Carnage04 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2005
    star 5

    I would say that he was not expected to kill two Sith Lords at one time. I believe that Obi-Wan and Yoda thought that if Luke did pass his Jedi trial, as explained by the parent poster, that the light side would again be rising, and the will of the force would create some type of opportunity. Yoda battled Sids 20 years ago and had a very hard time with him. Imagine Sids with 20 more years of force using experience. Luke killing Vader? Maybe. Luke killing Sids? NO WAY. EIther they sent him to his death or they sent him as a trial, hoping to spur Anakin into action.

    Carnage
  12. ObiWan506 Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2003
    star 7
    It's two reasons. Yes, Luke needs to learn how to not allow fear to control his emotions. But I think it's also because only Luke can bring back his Father ... one way or another. He's the only hope not because of his skills, but because of his love.
  13. Beautiful_Disaster Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2005
    star 4
    I agree with that. Although Kenobi and Yoda never thought Anakin could be brought back from the Darkside. Luke and Padme were the only ones that ever believed that there was still good in him.
  14. Quinnocent-Till-Sith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2004
    star 3
    If Kenobi only wanted Vader to see reason then why did he leave him a stumpy mess on Mustafar?
  15. Alanikan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2005
    star 1
    Both Yoda and Obi-Wan knew that Anakin's offspring would be a threat to him one day, which is why the twins were safely hidden for 20 years.
  16. Beautiful_Disaster Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2005
    star 4
    And I think Obi-Wan at least wanted Luke to kill his father, because when Luke says,"I can't kill my own father." Kenobi looks disappointed and replied, "Then the Emperor has already won.You were our only hope." So he did expect Luke to kill his father.
  17. SephyCloneNo15 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2005
    star 5
    You actually think Vader would have listened to reason from the guy who dismembered him and (Anakin thought) cheated with his wife? Maybe 30 years later he would be open to reason, but not on Mustafar.
  18. Darth_Turkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2004
    star 4
    Nice post, with one draw back. lu
  19. General_Kin Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    OW506 EDIT: Thank you for contributing so well to this thread
  20. ObiWan506 Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2003
    star 7
    Well remember, Luke didn't know Vader was his father until after he confronted him in ESB. Before that he didn't love Vader because he didn't know who he was ... so of course he feared him before he initially confronted him.
  21. Darth_Turkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2004
    star 4
    He did'nt fear him. He flew alone to cloud city to rescue his friends from him. If he was afraid he would not have done this. He faced Vader becasue he knew he had to. Vader says.

    "Obi-wan has taught you well, you have controlled your fear, now give into anger, only your hatred can destroy me now"

    Or something like that, it's been a while since i saw it.

    Anyway, Luke shows no sign of fear or hesitation when facing Vader for the first time and infact (as Yoda says) he rushed to face him.

    Bravery or stupidity? Either way, it's not fear.
  22. cbass4 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2005
    Guys, I am shocked that no one realizes this.

    Luke is not afraid of Vader himself.

    Luke is afraid of becoming Vader.

    I beliave Luke's fear is not being able to control the force and choose between the dark or light side.

    Hence when Luke cuts off Vader's head, he sees himself in the mask. Hence, he is afraid he could be like vader. unable to control his emotions.

    and perhaps, withouy concious kowledge, realizing he has some relation with Vader.


  23. remhuck Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2004
    I know that Ben and Yoda warned him not to go in ESB but the point of Luke was going to rescue his friends at Bespin, Not to confront Vader. And Ben uses the word "if." I'm pretty sure he would have been super happy to avoid Vader if he could.
  24. Darth_Turkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2004
    star 4
    He did'nt fear becoming vader when he saw his own face in Vaders mask, he did not know Vader was even his father at that point. The point of that scene was to illistrate what Luke COULD become if he took the same path as Vader.

    "Whats in there"

    "Only what you take with you"

    "Your weapons, you will not need them"

    Luke does what his father would do, he does'nt listen, he acts on fear and takes his weapons just in case. For that reason he see's Vader, kills him, then see's his own face in the mask becasue he has made a bad decision to act with weapons and to act on fear, and for this he could end up just like Vader.

    At the end of ROTJ Luke looks at his own robotic hand, then looks at his fathers. He see's how alilke they are becoming, after he has just given into anger and fears he will end up just like his father at this point. This is the only time Luke fears, but not a fear of Vader, a fear he is too much like him. But then the anger in him secomes to the good and he reasons that death is a better option than becoming an agent of evil. :0)
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