Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Darth Georgia, Nov 22, 2012.
Mace didn't fight Grievous in the movies at all right?
The closet he came was in the clone wars 2003.... Caught Grievous while taking off, crushed his chest up... but in the actual movies, no they definitely didn't.
Okay sorrry, i was thinking of something else. The real reason they didn't send Anakin is because he was just a Knight, Obi-Wan had lots of training and more experience.
Mace fought Grievous in the Labyrinth of Evil novel. It takes place right before the events of Revenge of the Sith and shows Grievous kidnapping Palpatine.
Yeah, Windu mentions that in ROTS novelization.
Mace came close to defeating Dooku in a short duel, but the latter was rescued by MagnaGuards. He later defeated Grievous before using the Force to crush the latter's chest during the attempt to kidnap Palpatine.
Why not have both anakin and obi wan to track down and destory grievous???
Send both Anakin and Obi-Wan! Might prevent Anakin from falling as well. Maybe.
That's why. Palpatine wanted Obi-wan out of the way so that he could finish turning the boy.
It was a pride thing.
Palpatine wanted Anakin to be the one to kill grievous which explains why the council refused to send him. They would not want the chancellor to believe he could manipulate Jedi affairs and so did not send Anakin.
Obi-Wan fought Grievous on numerous occasions, more than most Masters. Anakin, however, had pretty much no experience with Grievous, aside from the encounter at the beginning of ROTS, in which they didn't actually fight each other.
That being said, Palpatine took a huge gamble. The council could have agreed with him and sent Anakin, or they could have sent somebody like Fisto, leaving Obi-Wan to look out for Anakin.
They needed Anakin to spy on the Chancellor, that's why.
They should have done this.
Palpatine's plan was incredibly well thought out. He set up a trap.
He needed Obi Wan and Anakin to be far apart as Obi Wan was one of the only people Anakin was very close friends with, trusted and confided in. Obi Wan could keep Anakin in the Jedi 'right minded' state and keep him calm and think rationally, without giving in to impulsive/rash action. For example, see the tenderness of the Goodbye Old Friend moment in ROTS or alternatively see him calm Anakin when Padme falls out of the gunship in AOTC.
Palpatine knew that if anyone could prevent Anakin from falling through the threshold into the dark side (and Sidious') embrace, it was Obi Wan, his former master and close friend. By suggesting that Anakin was the best person for the job, this served Palpatine's plan. He knew that the Council would not want to appear to be controlled by the Chancellor and so pick someone else. As Yoda had already been sent, and Mace Windu was the next senior Jedi on the Council, it was likely that Obi Wan would be the most selectable alternative. He also knew that they would want Anakin to remain to continue his assignment of monitoring the Chancellor. Thus there was little risk of them sending Obi Wan and Anakin. Finally, he knew that when the Council rejected this suggestion, it would further sow discord between Anakin and the Jedi Order.
In addition, had Grievious overcome Obi Wan, Palpatine would have gotten rid of Obi Wan then and there and more easily been able to manipulate Anakin without a Jedi counterbalance of influence on him. If Obi Wan killed Grievous, then Palpatine would have gotten rid of a minion who needed to be rid of at some point in the closing moves of his grand chess game. His enemy would have done him a favour.
In my opinion, they should have sent Obi Wan with Anakin, or alternatively kept Obi Wan on Coruscant and tried to send some other Jedi Masters. The Jedi Council knew that Obi Wan and Anakin worked well together and also that Obi Wan had some influence in keeping his old apprentice calm. This was a lapse on the Jedi Council's part. Their vision was clouded and they could not see what was in front of them. They acted to late to save both the Jedi Order and the Republic. When they did act, they did not coordinate it particularly well, in terms of concentrating their forces. They dispersed their skilled assets across the galaxy. And to make matters worst, did not communicate amongst the Order in general as to what was going on.
When Mace Windu is told by Anakin that Palpatine is Sidious, this is the critical make or break moment in terms of planning. At that point, he should have either taken Anakin with him, or else informed the rest of the Order or members of the Senate. Palpatine's strategic advantage was that he was the legitimate ruler of the Republic. I agree that Anakin was confused and could have been a risk, but then Mace should have instructed him not just to wait in the Council Chambers, but give him something to do like inform the rest of the Council. In the novel, Mace Windu realises too late that the key shatterpoint is Anakin when the young Jedi arrives at what appears to be the wrong end of a Jedi assasination attempt.
I mean tbh, there should have been a better arrest team, though I suppose they had not gone with the intention of facing a Sith Lord. I think they could have choreographed that scene better where the first 2 Masters die in a more impressive way. E.g. The battle could have been after Palpatine says "It's treason then.." a 2nd lightsaber hidden in one of his odd statues emerges from it's hiding place and stabs the Agen Kolar in the back. At the same time Palpatine does the swirling thing whilst throwing the other lightsaber to kill the second dude from the left. Whilst he is swirling he does a Force push to push Mace Windu back. When he lands he retrieves both lightsabers and engages Kit Fisto, who still has panic on his face, but manages to rid Palpatine of one lightsaber by cutting its handle before succumbing to a deadly swipe from the Sith Lord.
This could have still been so quick before Master Windu had a chance to ready himself, but would have set up the final fight between the Dark Lord of the Sith and the Koran Jedi Master and Defender of the Republic much better than the other 3 Jedi just standing there and collapsing in a heap without doing anything.
But I digest.. the thing is Obi Wan and Anakin should have gone to Utapau. But Sidious no doubt would have still manipulated the war to delay him having to put down his emergency powers. Having said that, I'm not sure how and he may have made a mistake by suggesting Anakin go. What if the Jedi had agreed? Sidious' last chess moves were extremely risky. But then again, this was a high risk, high stakes, winner takes all game. The Galaxy and the Force, who would win?
The Jedi in the end were just outplayed.
The problem wouldn't change if Anakin was with Mace or not, as Palpatine would still goad Mace into killing him and thus Anakin would still act. Nor would Anakin obey Mace about staying behind to inform Yoda, which according to the novelization, he already did. Even if Anakin had gone to Utapau, it wouldn't matter as Palpatine would find another way to split them up. Time was on his side.
Yeah agreed. Palpatine had time and the upper hand since he was still Chancellor and no one knew of his true identity until it was revealed.
Having said that, it would have made it more difficult if Anakin hadn't been around. Palpatine could have still executed a plan to initiate Order 66, but without Anakin present, it would have been much harder to turn him. In addition, it might have been much harder to justify it to the Senate afterward.
The novel doesn't make it sound great though. If Mace had informed Yoda, then it seems incompetent of the Jedi not to inform anyone else in the Order or outside it. For example, several Jedi who survived were unaware of the attempt to arrest Palpatine or that he was Sidious. They didn't know what happened for the clones to turn on them. The film explanation is better in the sense that it gives them the excuse of a sense of urgency - a need to act quickly and there was little time to discuss this.
According to the Labyrinth of Evil novel, the Jedi were closing in on Sidious on Coruscant forcing his hand to launch the Attack on Coruscant early. If you read the book, Mace and Shaak Ti make a mistake. They leave one Intelligence officer and one commando team to continue the search, whilst both Jedi go to see what is happening above. If they had both stayed alongst with numerous other commandos, they might have discovered Palpatine in his secret Chamber. Instead, Palpatine killed the intelligence taskforce when they stumbled upon his hideout.
I think Palpatine would have waited until after Anakin got back from Utapau to execute his plan, if the Council had sent him. I'm sure he would have found a way to use it to his advantage, much in the way he used the aftermath of Dooku's death.
That was always unlikely, though - Sidious knew the Council was suspicious of Palpatine and would try to disrupt his plans, and Anakin probably didn't really want to go in the first place since it would have meant leaving Padme.
In the novelization, there's a strong "Anakin wants to go" theme - on some levels at least:
"Pointless it is, to squabble over jurisdiction," the image of Yoda said. "Act on this, we must."
"I believe we all agree on that," Anakin said briskly. "Let's move to the operational planning. The Chancellor has requested that I lead this mission, and so I—"
"The Council will decide this," Mace said sternly. "Not the Chancellor."
"Dangerous, Grievous is. To face him, steady minds are needed- Masters, we should send."
Perhaps of all the Council, only Obi-Wan could detect the shadow of disappointment and hurt that crept into Anakin's eyes. Obi-Wan understood perfectly, and could even sympathize: to take the field would have slipped Anakin out from under the pressures of what he saw as his conflicting duties.
"Given the strain on our current resources," Mace Windu said, "I recommend we send only one Jedi—Master Kenobi."
Which would leave Mace and Agen Kolar—both among the greatest bladesbeings the Jedi Order had ever produced—here on Coruscant in case Sidious did indeed take this opportunity to make a dramatic move. Not to mention Anakin, who was a brigade's worth of firepower in his own right.
Obi-Wan nodded. Perfectly logical. Everyone would agree.
Except Anakin. He leaned forward, red climbing his cheeks. "He wasn't so successful the last time he met Grievous!"
"Anakin—" Obi-Wan began.
"No offense, my Master. I am only stating a fact."
"Oh no, not at all. You're quite right. But I have a feel for how he fights now—and for how he runs away. I am certain I can catch him."
"And you, my young friend, have duties here on Coruscant. Extremely important duties, that require your full attention," Obi-Wan reminded him. "Am I being clear?"
Anakin didn't answer. He sank back into his chair and turned away.
"Obi-Wan, my choice is," Yoda said.
Ki-Adi-Mundi's image nodded. "I concur. Let's put it to a vote."
Mace Windu counted nods. "Six in favor."
He waited, looking at Anakin. "Further comment?"
Anakin only stared at the wall.
After a moment, Mace shrugged.
"It is unanimous."
Standing alongside Obi-Wan on the landing deck, Anakin watched them go.
He couldn't quite make himself believe he wasn't going along.
It wasn't that he really wanted to go with Obi-Wan to Utapau—even though it'd be a relief to pull out of the political quagmire that was sucking him down. But how could he leave Padme now? He didn't even care anymore about being the Jedi to capture Grievous, though such a feat would almost certainly bring him his Mastery. He was no longer certain he needed to be a Master at all.
Through the long, black hours of meditation last night— meditation that was often indistinguishable from brooding—he had begun to sense a deeper truth within the Force: a submerged reality, lurking like a Sarlacc beneath the sunlit sands of Jedi training.
Somewhere down there was all the power he would ever need.
So no, it wasn't that he wanted to go. It was more, inexplicably, that he wanted Obi-Wan to stay.
"I'm sorry, Anakin. Did you say something?"
"You're going to need me on this one, Master." And he could feel an unexpected truth there, too—if he were to go along, if he could somehow bring himself to forget about Padme for a few days,
if he could somehow get himself away from Palpatine and the Council and his meditations and politics and everything here on Coruscant that was dragging him this way and that way and sucking him under, if he could just tag along and play the Kenobi and Skywalker game for a few days, everything might still be all right.
"It may be nothing but a wild bantha chase," Obi-Wan said. "Your job here is much more important, Anakin."
"I know: the Sith." The word left a bitter taste in Anakin's mouth. The Council's manipulation had a rank stench of politics on it. "I just—" Anakin shrugged helplessly, looking away. "I don't like you going off without me like this. It's a bad idea to split up the team. I mean, look what happened last time."
"Don't remind me."
"You want to go spend another few months with somebody like Ventress? Or worse?"
"Anakin." Anakin could hear a gentle smile in Obi-Wan's voice. "Don't worry. I have enough clones to take three systems the size of Utapau's. I believe I should be able to handle the situation, even without your help."
Anakin had to answer his smile. "Well, there's always a first time."
Obi-Wan said, "We're not really splitting up, Anakin. We've worked on our own many times—like when you took Padme to Naboo while I went to Kamino and Geonosis."
"And look how that turned out."
"All right, bad example," Obi-Wan admitted, his smile shading toward rueful. "Yet years later, here we all are: still alive, and still friends. My point, Anakin, is that even when we work separately, we work together. We have the same goals: end the war, and save the Republic from the Sith. As long as we're on the same side, everything will come out well in the end. I'm certain of it."
"Well..." Anakin sighed. "I suppose you could be right. You are, once in a while. Occasionally."
The middle passage supports the hypothesis that he was torn about wanting to go.
True. Only thing is the Jedi Council seemed to have plans to make a move to force the Chancellor to relinquish his emergency powers as soon as Grievous was captured or killed. They were already on their way when Anakin informed Master Windu of Palpatine's true identity.
If Anakin hadn't been there, then Palpatine would have either had to stall for time, hoping that owing to the fact that the Republic proceedings would be slow and he would still in effect retain his power and could initiate Order 66 before he lost that power if things went wrong, or he would have to kill the arrest team.
Whilst he dispatched 3 so swiftly (poor choreography aside), Master Windu bested him in the duel. It was high risk, Palpatine's closing game could have gone wrong if Anakin hadn't been there to save him. Unless he simply issued Order 66 immediately when word was received of Grievous' death, but then how would he justify it? Then again, would he need to justify anything to the Senate?
Where is this from? The expansion of the Jedi Council meeting in particular? It's different from the film?
in the words of Mace Windu himself
(to the OP)
THE code plot forbids it
What if Mace Windu had gone with Anakin to inform Palpatine of them engaging Grievous?
If they were uncomfortable with Anakin's close relationship with the Chancellor and Master Windu thought it was "dangerous to put the two of them together", then why not monitor him/have another Jedi be with Anakin whenever he was with the Chancellor?
Problem is - the Jedi are trying to take advantage of the aforesaid close relationship - getting Anakin to spy on the chancellor. Such spying would be a bit hard with a guard in tow.