why not train luke & leia from birth?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by DarthWolvo23, Jun 2, 2005.

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  1. DarthWolvo23 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2005
    star 4
    why dont obi1 & yoda train luke & leia from birth

    i know in the ep3 novel yoda says he wants them to grow up having normal lives, unlike the current jedi, then find the jedi when the time is right

    BUT isnt not starting jedi training from birth and therefore forming attachments exactly what started anakin on the road to the darkside???
  2. Sanjiro Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 2
    the jedi forced anakin to keep those feelings and emotions secret. that's what the problem was. if he had been able to be 100% honest i doubt he would have been so close to palpatine and been that manipulated.

    it's interesting that they put luke in a situation to love his father while he was growing up. Ben even told him a lie to keep anakin innocent in luke's eyes. by the time he learned the truth, luke had lived with thinking his father was pure for so long that those good feelings about him remained. it's luke's love that saves his father.

    if they had just told him from the beginning that anakin has turned into a monster that kills children and chokes pregnant women Luke would probably have no problem killing vader.

  3. Ididitall4thewookie Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2004
    star 3
    They realized that the Jedi were doing it wrong after the events in ROTS. They wanted Luke to be a human being BEFORE he was a Jedi. They realized that love and connections to those you love are necessary to becoming a whole person instead of just an instrument of the force.

    If you notice, Yoda and OB1 change their tune quite a bit from the PT to the OT. YOda is suddenly concerned with the here and now when before, he was mindful of the future. OB1 was more laid back and let Luke make his own decisions (ok, maybe with a little manipulation) instead of strictly enforcing tennets and mantras like he did with Anakin.
  4. DarthWolvo23 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2005
    star 4
    good posts people

    has ne1 got any quote examples of the change in ob1 & yoda's way of thinking from the PT to the OT?
  5. Ididitall4thewookie Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2004
    star 3
    TPM - "But Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future" - OB1
    "Yes but not at the expense of the present" - QGJ

    ESB - "Long have I watched this one, always looking to the future, never his mind on WHERE HE WAS." - Yoda


    ROTS - "Anakin the Sith are evil" - OB1
    "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil" - Anakin

    ROTJ - "Luke youll find most of the truths we cling to are only from a certain point of view" - OB1
  6. SephyCloneNo15 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2005
    star 5
    I think there's another reason not to train them from birth. They had no idea what Vader would do if he knew the twins were alive. He had already shown his ability to murder young Jedi with no remorse. If he knew Obi-Wan and Yoda were training them, you think he would have hesitated to kill two more, especially if Palpatine threw some crazy lie at him to remove emotional connections to the kids.

    Am I the only one who thinks Yoda seems to not know who Luke is in ESB? It's been a while since I saw ESB, so I could be wrong.
  7. Ididitall4thewookie Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2004
    star 3
    Your first point is an excellent one.

    As to Yoda, he knew exactly who Luke was ("a long time have I watched this one"). His little act was a test for Luke to see how patient he was and to gauge him against his very impatient and volatile father.
  8. DarthSkeptical Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2001
    star 3
    If, as you say, Yoda really does now think that Padawans should be older when they start their training, why does Yoda object that Luke is "too old to begin the training"?
  9. DarthSyphus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 1
    It is not clear to me that they ever planned to train Luke and Leia. They never tried to train Leia, and they only trained Luke when by accident his path crossed with that of Obi-Wan Kenobi. If that red droid's motivator hadn't broken down, then Luke would never have gotten R2D2 and would never have met Obi-Wan Kenobi.

    Obi-Wan decided to train Luke to help him with the mission, and Yoda was very reluctant to train him in the beginning. They were also both quite fearful that Luke was as impatient as his father, especially after he rushed to save his friends on Bespin.
  10. jdijade Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 2
    This is an interesting topic that struck me after seeing ROTS. Here's Yoda, who trained Jedi kids for 800 years, right there at the birth of the twins. Though they're best positioned to restore things, instead of offering to take one of them (at least) he sits it out. He waits until Luke is "too old" to train, gives him a few pointers, and Luke runs off and gets his hand chopped.

    It would have been nice to have this plot hole plugged with some small plausible explanation as to why there was no talk of training.

    <<They realized that love and connections to those you love are necessary to becoming a whole person instead of just an instrument of the force.>>

    But it would seem that these kinds of connections were what caused the fear of loss in Anakin that resulted in him turning to the Dark Side, so that would seem too dangerous a mistake for Yoda and Obi-Wan to want to see repeated with Anakin's own offspring?
  11. DamonD Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    star 6
    But then Luke didn't have quite the same kind of life as Anakin. He wasn't a slave, wasn't taken away from his parent at the age of 9. Those two things argubly contributed a lot to Anakin's emotional problems in later life.

    Events coincide to take Luke away from his home, but Obi-Wan and Yoda seemingly preferred to let things take their course...go with the flow and see what happens.

    Basically, a very "Living Force" approach of them. They trusted that, when the children would be ready, the Force would guide them to Obi-Wan or Yoda.
  12. DS615 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2003
    star 4
    Vader doesn't become aware of Luke until after he begins training in the ways of the Force.

    Yoda and Ben were just waiting until he was old enough that he would have a real chance against Vader.

    If they had started his training as a youngling, then either Vader or the Emperor may have sensed him. Obviously he wouldn't be able to defend himself, so all hope would be lost.

  13. Ididitall4thewookie Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2004
    star 3
    But it would seem that these kinds of connections were what caused the fear of loss in Anakin that resulted in him turning to the Dark Side, so that would seem too dangerous a mistake for Yoda and Obi-Wan to want to see repeated with Anakin's own offspring?

    It wasnt just the connections that were Anakins's downfall, it was the way the Jedi looked down on them and did not nurture them. THAT is what led to Anakin mistrusting the Jedi order as much as anything else. If he were allowed to love Padme and marry her openly, Palps' manipulations would have been a lot less effective in getting Anakin to the point he was in in ROTS.

    As I said in an earlier post, Yoda and Ben obviously changed tacks when training Luke because they realize (probably through QGJ) that the old wasy just wasnt working anymore.

    I think they had every intention of training at least one of them at some point, didnt Yoda say something about them being a new hope at the end of ROTS. Also, why would he have watched Luke for a long time if he was just Anakin' s kid and nothing else? His statement about Luke being too old I think was Yoda and Ben playing good cop/bad cop to test Luke's patience and commitment.
  14. SephyCloneNo15 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2005
    star 5
    And I think they had every intention of training Leia, but she never got a chance to make the connection with Obi Wan that Luke did, which allowed Luke to se Obi's ghost and be guided to Dagobah. She couldn't see the ghosts on Endor, after all.

    If they had no intention of Leia being trained, I don't think Yoda even would have brought up the "There... is... another... Sky...walker." piece of information. At that point, Yoda most likely realized that Luke would eventually accept the task of confronting Vader and becoming a Jedi. I think he may have been conferring upon Luke the task of rebuilding the Order (which he takes up in the EU, including trying to train Leia)
  15. Eternal_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 1
    I think they had every intention of training at least one of them at some point, didnt Yoda say something about them being a new hope at the end of ROTS. Also, why would he have watched Luke for a long time if he was just Anakin' s kid and nothing else? His statement about Luke being too old I think was Yoda and Ben playing good cop/bad cop to test Luke's patience and commitment.


    I think you hit the nail on the head.

    As a boy, Anakin dreamed of being a Jedi and freeing all of the slaves. He was all-too-aware of how gifted he was, and became rather impatient and arrogant as a young adult. When Anakin was nine years old, he had absolutely no concept of what it really meant to be a Jedi, other than that they were very powerful and fought with laser swords. They were invincible warriors of good to him.

    In ESB, Yoda is making sure that Luke understands what he is getting into. He needs to be certain that Luke will not follow the same path as Anakin, and Luke has shown many of the same traits. He's testing Luke's resolve and commitment. Luke and/or Leia may be the only hope, but it would be better to not train Luke than to begin his training and have him follow in Anakin's footsteps.

    I think it is also important than Luke does not realize that Obi-Wan and Yoda have been planning to train him to confront Vader for the past twenty years. Luke needs to believe that he is coming to this of his own will -- and in fact, despite their intentions and guidance, Obi-Wan and Yoda realize that Luke needs to decide to follow this path of his own free will.

  16. DarthScully Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2001
    star 4
    DamonD posted on 6/3/05 1:28am

    Events coincide to take Luke away from his home, but Obi-Wan and Yoda seemingly preferred to let things take their course...go with the flow and see what happens.

    Basically, a very "Living Force" approach of them. They trusted that, when the children would be ready, the Force would guide them to Obi-Wan or Yoda.

    />
    took the words right out of my mouth dude :)/>/>
  17. KILIK Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2005
    star 4
    If they were tranded at bith they would have been found. But waiting the Sith. Would not care if two Jedi were bron. But if they trined at bith then they would be therat.
  18. Hancider78 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    Hi everyone First time poster here so bare with me.

    Love the posts so far all of them have a good point in them and i think they were all factors from Ben and Yoda taking a more "Will of the Force" Approach to their training to the fact that Vader and Palpy who find and kill them sooner. I especially like Eternal Jedi's Remark about Anakin knowing his gifts and becoming arrogant. I mean not only is the kid pulled away from his mother and told he can never see her again but it gets drilled into his head he is this "chosen one" basically the savior of the universe. When he finds out that he can't stop people from dying and there is nothing that can change that no wonder he snaps and starts killing everybody. It is interesting though to see that by taking away his mother, the only love relationship he had ever had he is left with either the Jedi(OB1 being the closest) and Palpatine. And although OB1 and Anakin do love each other it is too understated and the rules choke it out. While Palpy tells him what he wants to hear. well i have to go i will be back and finish my thought later Sorry!!
  19. Hancider78 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    Sorry I am back had to go eat. Anyways as i was saying You have Ben and Palpy the two biggest influences on Anakin and because he's had one love cut from him basically he has never had the opportunity to mature in that love he is still an emotional and spiritual child. So he goes to Palpy who tells him what he wants to hear and fills him with lies which eventually leads him to the dark side.

    In luke's case he is almost an adult by ANH and so even though he is still an cocky teenager he has been allowed to mature naturally developing his personal skills and having deeper relationships with his guardians and friends. Although he still has some of his fathers tendencies he is an overall more rounded person and is able to understand more that rules are usually meant to keep someone from harm than to hold them back. Anyways sorry for rambling but that is just my 2 dollars and fifty cents worth.

    Remember rules without love are only rules
  20. jdijade Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 2
    <<Vader doesn't become aware of Luke until after he begins training in the ways of the Force. >>

    Because Vader was in close enough proximity to notice that "the force is strong with this one," a trait Luke possessed from birth. True, this was enhanced by Ben's brief training. But Anakin, as a child, had been quite able to intuitively use the force for podracing, etc. Luke might have done so, too. After all, we know that he'd "become quite a good pilot" himself. Maybe Luke, too, could "see things before they happen...that's why he appears to have such quick reflexes." Wouldn't this "use" of the force by offspring as powerful as Vader's create noticeable ripples? SOME teaching, even in understanding and masking these talents, would seem prudent in keeping them hidden.

    >>If they had started his training as a youngling, then either Vader or the Emperor may have sensed him. >>
    Two thoughts on this:

    If use of the force can be sensed as mentioned above, this would include more than training. Considering how much aptitude their father had before ever knowing about the force, it would seem a danger to allow his kids to go around indiscriminately stirring up waves by using "hunches" and "quick reflexes."

    Also, since Dagobah is force neutral, able to hide Yoda readily, couldn't training activities been undertaken there?
  21. Merek Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2005
    Great thread. This was something I'd wondered about.

    I would think that Anakin would be a great example to Yoda and Kenobi that the twins should be trained from birth. The trauma that set in motion Anakin's downfall was the attachment to his mother. Which led to a fear of loss of loved ones (Padme).

    For 800 years, Yoda has trained Jedi. Presumably all of them were tested at an early age by the Jedi Order and taken to the temple and trained prior to developing the attachments. Apparently this procedure has had a high success rate (few Jedi turning to the dark side).

    Then Anakin is discovered late, has attachments, and things go downhill. I would think this would make them want to train the twins immediately, before attachments are made. As posted earlier, if Ben and Yoda could hide as Force users, so could the kids.
  22. masterjedi747 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2004
    star 3
    But I don't think Ben and Yoda were really using the Force much in exile. If they had been training two extremely powerful Jedi from birth, the Sith probably would have noticed something. Instead, they let the twins go....I suppose you could think of them as "sleeper agents" that the Sith would never suspect....and then waited for the right moment to have the Living Force bring them back to begin their training, after the Sith have already become (over)confident that all members of the Jedi Order have essentially been eliminated. Training the twins immediately would have probably just been too dangerous and too difficult in this case, so the Jedi chose patience instead. o_O
  23. DARTHIRONCLAD Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2005
    star 3
    The Jedi are corrupt. Almost all the people in Episode 1,2 and 3 are corrupt. The Jedi should not be taking children from their parents at a early age and turning them into warriors. The younglings should have been left with their parents, and if they grew up and wanted to be warriors, like Luke and Leia did, then that would be their destiny to do so. The Jedi's knowledge of how things work has blinded their faith in the greater Force. The Jedi are corrupted, and are playing god with the younglings. The Jedi are so focused on midi-chlorians and how they give the Jedi their power, that they have become the very thing they swore to destroy. After Revenge of the Sith the last two Jedi just have faith that everything will work itself out. That's why Yoda and Obi-Wan don't tell Luke about midi-chlorians. Yoda and Obi-Wan just live a humble life and wait for a sign to begin training one of the twins. Bail sent Leia to begin her training but she was captured by Vader and when Luke chased R2 out into the Judland Wastes, Obi-Wan knew the time had come to begin training Luke. The only thing stopping Luke was Owen, because a good guy always listens to his elders, just like Anakin/Vader always tried to listen to his elders. Notice Cleigg hates the Tusken Raiders. If Cleigg and the other foreigners to Tatooine would of tried to communicate with the Tuskens, then Shmi would of have never been kidnapped. Anakin was just doing what his elders where doing. Anakin's elders hated the Tuskens. The battle of Naboo was blueprint on what needed to be done to fix the problems in the galaxy, but during the ten years that followed the battle of Naboo, nothing gets done. The Jedi couldn't see that Anakin's life story was telling the Jedi with the help of the good people to go and fix all the suffering throughout the galaxy. The Jedi don't see Anakin as a gift from the Force because they're blinded by their opinion that they think they know everything. The Jedi have lost their faith, as have many of the advanced species of the galaxy, however, by A New Hope the people begin to have faith in the Force and in each other. In 1, 2 and 3, the Jedi are no different than the Geonosians and Kaminoans, in that they all create weapons.
  24. Sith_lord_Kajuma Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2005
    The reason why I belive that the training has not occured is because it was a crucial time in the Republics eye's. A dark time that the Jedi were being wiped out the face of the galaxy. Vader would contiune to hunt the Jedi no matter the odds. If Obi-wan trained them or Yoda then once there set to be knights, Vader would already have killed him. Wasting time and effort to balance the galaxy once again. Yoda probably wanted them to wait, wait until the time was right to train them in the most crucial time for the Empire when the Rebellion was going to strike the Death Star II. They would need alot of help.

    Vader understood that he would see his own children killing him for who he was and not for who he was to them. If they were train early then he would be killing them instead to him. He was in a trap that he couldn't get out of, he needed his own children to sort of "rescue" him from the clutches of the Emperor, and once again be one with the force, and not the Dark Side of the force.
  25. THEMELO1 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2001
    star 1
    To respond to a comment that was made earlier in the posts,

    It is not clear to me that they ever planned to train Luke and Leia. They never tried to train Leia, and they only trained Luke when by accident his path crossed with that of Obi-Wan Kenobi. If that red droid's motivator hadn't broken down, then Luke would never have gotten R2D2 and would never have met Obi-Wan Kenobi.

    Leia more than likely isn't trained due to her being a politician and besides the future was probably more certain with Luke due to not having any political ties. Could you imagine if Vader found out that there was a senator being trained to use the force?
    Luke was not trained by accident. Obi-Wan stayed w/ Luke on Tatooine.
    Now,to piggy back on another post.Knowing what we know about Yoda teaching Obi-Wan how to commune with idividuals one with force, particularly Qui-Gon; it's probably safe to say that there was some kind of communication (through Qui-Gon perhaps) between Yoda and Obi-Wan.
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