Why Obi-Wan disappears and Qui-Gon doesn?t - an unfortunate conundrum

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Kisho_Meteora, May 15, 2005.

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  1. Kisho_Meteora Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2005
    In ANH when Obi-Wan gets struck down by Vader he instantly becomes at one with the force and fades away, but in TPM when Maul kills Qui-Gon his body remains and he gets cremated. To make any sense of this you have to momentarily take Obi-Wan?s death out of the picture and focus on Qui-Gon?s and Yoda?s deaths. In ROTJ Yoda passes away of old age and peacefully fades, whereas Qui-Gon dies prematurely at the hands of Maul therefore it can be taken that in order to fade away a Jedi must die of natural causes.

    So based on this Obi-Wan must?ve died naturally mere moments before Vader?s sabre hit him, but what was it then that killed him? It is my firm belief that he had a premonition through the force that Luke was going to shout out ?Ben? if he lost to Vader and he then died due to sheer disappointment that he didn?t call him Obi-Wan even in his final seconds. Hence Obi-Wan died naturally and disappeared becoming one with the force.

    Think about it, it makes sense that the once great Jedi Knight Obi-Wan Kenobi just couldn?t take the injustice of being called Ben, it would?ve been the final straw in a long line of crap handed to him by the Skywalker family and the ultimate anti-climax to his life, thus Obi-Wan Kenobi died in a tragic conundrum whereby he died after foreseeing Luke shout ?Ben? which in turn caused Luke to see him die and shout out.
  2. zombie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 1999
    star 4
    I dont think Luke made Obi Wan die by calling him Ben...

    The whole jedi-dissapearing-trick basically is a secret that only Yoda, Obi Wan, and i suppose Anakin, know of, and that is because of Qui Gon.

    When a jedi dies, he dies--his body becomes lifeless and it is cremated in the traditional jedi ritual ceremony, as Qui Gon was. However, Qui Gon was somewhat different; he was regarded as a rebel in the jedi order and held some unconventional views of the force--he preferred to concentrate on the Living Force, while Yoda and the rest of the jedi concentrated on the greater, Universal Force (is this the term?). Basically the living force is the force's connection to the physical world of living beings. Because of this, Qui Gon was able to retain part of his identity when he died; not much, but a small part. This had never been done before, and it is something no one knew of.

    Perhaps it was Qui Gon's meditation before Maul killed him which allowed him to concentrate on the Living Force so much that when he died he was able to become a part of it. In any event, the first breakthrough after he "died" seemed to be hard to make--it wasn't until an extremely powerful event that he could reach through to the physical world. As the Chosen One is lashing out with the dark side, killing the Tusken Raider camp in a terrible rage, Yoda is meditating and senses a brief wavering of Qui Gon's presence, saying "Anakin, Anakin, no!". The voice dissipates as Mace Windu enters, but it is Yoda's first clue--a jedi can retain his identity after death!

    When the jedi purge occurs, Yoda realizes that this would be their only defence, their last hope against the Sith. The trick had to be safely guarded, for if the sith learned of it, they would be unstoppable. Yoda tells Obi Wan of this occurance before they depart for their seperate hiding places; both of them spend two decades in seclusion, meditating on and perfecting this ability so that when the day comes for their death, they can still combat the sith in some way. They succeed--whereas Qui Gon could only retain his identity as a disembodied voice that could only be detected for a brief moment under very unlikely circumstances (a great disturbance in the force while the most powerful jedi is in meditation), Yoda and Obi Wan learn how to retain their entire physical spirit.

    When Obi Wan faced Darth Vader, he knew that the fight would be lost, and that Luke needed a distraction to keep Vader at bay. Obi Wan realized that he would be much more help to Luke as a spirit, and so he prepares himself. "If you strike me down, i shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine". Watch Obi Wan give Vader and Luke a sly smile; Vader goes to strike, but Obi Wan merely closes his eyes and concentrates. When Vader cuts through Obi Wan's cloak, it falls to the floor empty--Obi Wan had removed his body from the physical realm and brought his identity into the force, where he remained to guide Luke, invincible from the Sith.

    Likely Vader was tipped off by this--notice him stepping on Obi Wan's empty cloak in amazement. He likely realzed the same thing as Yoda did, but kept the secret hidden from the Emperor. When he finally is redeemed, he dies, and presumably vanishes off-screen, finally joining Obi Wan and Yoda.
  3. Newteh Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2005
    star 1
    A good theory.. but with Anakin we never see his body disappear do we?

    Wonder why Lucas never showed this, yet a few scenes later shows Anakin with Yoda and Obi-Wan on Endor at the end.

  4. snap-hiss Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2001
    star 5
    Anakin's body did disappear.

    !snap
  5. Saora_Bin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2005
    star 4
    I think it was because Obi-Wan and Yoda were ready to die. Yoda died of old age, and Obi-Wan sacrificed himself. However, Qui-Gon was struck down prematurely, and Vader/Anakin got the crap shocked out of him. I think a Jedi disappears when they are prepared to die.
  6. snap-hiss Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2001
    star 5
    This will be explained in ROTS.

    !snap
  7. Jedi_Aero-Stone Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2005
    Yep...nothing more...nothing less. Sometimes not overreading too much into something brings clearer answers.
  8. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 1999
    star 6
    Unfortunately, it WASN'T explained...

    ...in the final edit.

    Cut scene from ROTS:
    ______________________________________________________

    222(165) INT.POLIS MASSA-OBSERVATION DOME-NIGHT

    YODA: Failed to stop the Sith Lord, I have. Still much to learn, there is...

    QUI-GON (V.O.): Patience. You will have time. I did not. When I became one with the Force I made a great discovery. With my training, you will be able to merge with the Force at will. Your physical self will fade away, but you will still retain your consciousness. You will become more powerful than any Sith.

    YODA: Eternal consciousness.

    QUI-GON (V.O.): The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed.

    YODA: ...to become one with the Force, and influence still have... A power greater than all, it is.

    QUI-GON (V.O.): You will learn to let go of everything. No attachment, no thought of self. No physical self.

    YODA: A great Jedi Master, you have become, Qui-Gon Jinn. Your apprentice I gratefully become.

    (YODA thinks about this for a minute, then BAIL ORGANA enters the room and breaks his meditation.)

    BAIL ORGANA: Excuse me, Master Yoda. Obi-Wan Kenobi has made contact.
    ______________________________________________________
  9. Master_Ikrik Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2004
    star 1
    I think Saora_Bin has it down perfectly. Obi-Wan, and Yoda are ready and know that they are going to die. Vader and Qui-Gon aren't and are fighting to stay alive, they aren't at peace with themselves or with the force, which is why they don't dissapear like the Yoda.
  10. medleyoz Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 4
    Exactly how a Jedi disappears was one of the things I was looking forward to seeing explained. GL even said it would be on one of the commentaries.
    Is that scene in the novel
  11. Newteh Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2005
    star 1
    Zombie, im curious as to how you gained so much of an understanding of what would be explained a bit in ROTS before it came out?

    Did you read some spoilers...

    I read this before i saw the film.. and it actually enhanced my viewing, becuase i considered it a theory and nothing more... but i left thinking "how did you figure it out" lol.

    Regards
  12. Darth_Pott Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 24, 2004
    star 1
    My view is much simpler.

    Having seen ROTS by now, I'd guess that Qui-Gon had already been learning how to become one with the Force after death. How he learned and why, I don't know. But it's safe to say he was in the process of learning; perhaps he was familiar with Darth Plagueis and wanted the secret for the Jedi?

    Anyway, he died prematurely at the hands of Maul, clearly before learning the complete secret of remaining whole after death. But, according to the ROTS novel, he has retained enough of himself to be audible through the Force. This is shown in II when Qui-Gon can be heard yelling "Anakin! Anakin! Noooooo!" and Yoda, who is meditating, happens to hear it. Yoda's reaction is one of surprise. In the ROTS novel, Yoda studies at the feet of the discorporated Qui-Gon, who by now (since he is one with the Force) knows and can pass on, but cannot himself accomplish, how to remain corporeal.

    In other words, Qui-Gon passed onto Yoda this knowledge, who passed it on to Obi-Wan, and in the intervening nineteen or twenty years between ROTS and ANH, the two of them learned the secret to completion.

    DP
  13. Darth_Pott Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 24, 2004
    star 1
    My view is much simpler.

    Having seen ROTS by now, I'd guess that Qui-Gon had already been learning how to become one with the Force after death. How he learned and why, I don't know. But it's safe to say he was in the process of learning; perhaps he was familiar with Darth Plagueis and wanted the secret for the Jedi?

    Anyway, he died prematurely at the hands of Maul, clearly before learning the complete secret of remaining whole after death. But, according to the ROTS novel, he has retained enough of himself to be audible through the Force. This is shown in II when Qui-Gon can be heard yelling "Anakin! Anakin! Noooooo!" and Yoda, who is meditating, happens to hear it. Yoda's reaction is one of surprise. In the ROTS novel, Yoda studies at the feet of the discorporated Qui-Gon, who by now (since he is one with the Force) knows and can pass on, but cannot himself accomplish, how to remain corporeal.

    In other words, Qui-Gon passed onto Yoda this knowledge, who passed it on to Obi-Wan, and in the intervening nineteen or twenty years between ROTS and ANH, the two of them learned the secret to completion.

    DP
  14. sj1973 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Qui-Gon doesnt disapear because he had not yet learned how to become one with the force(force spirit).He learns after he dies.Therefore his body doesnt disapear after he is killed.
  15. sj1973 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2005
    well said Dart_Pott, you beat me to it and explained it better .:p
  16. DarthWolvo23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2005
    star 4
    then why does anakin come back as a force ghost?

    who explains it to him???
  17. Chewie_Bone Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2005
    I think Saora_Bin had it right, too: Qui Gon and those killed in the Jedi Purge (remember their bodies in ROTS?) were not ready to die, so they left bodies. Kenobi, Vader, and Yoda were all at peace. Though not willing to die, they were calm, and knew that they would. Perhaps Qui Gon, since he died laying down with Kenobi by his side, also became one with the force but to a smaller degree--he knew he was dying but did not wish to. He still had a lot of life left in him. Still, we're probably reading to much into this.....just let it be. I'm sure GL had his reasons. Or, if he didn't, he doesn't want that known.
  18. zombie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 1999
    star 4
    No Newteh i was spoiler free. But the facts are all there without seeing EpIII, you just have to connect them.


    People seem to have a real problem with Anakin's ghost, and while the theory that Obi Wan dissappearance tips him off, perhaps there is another answer: he is the Chosen One! Heck, he was created by the force itself so why wouldnt he be able to retain his identity after death?!

    Could work for those that dont like the contrived detective work of my other explanaition...
  19. YoungAngus Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 7, 2005
    star 5
    Yea to be one with the force you have to completly let go of your physical self all those jedi who died were fighting to stay in there physical bodies so thats why they didnt become force ghost. yea i guess anakin became one cuase hes the chosen one.
  20. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    The only reason Obi Wan and Yoda faded away is because of the teachings of Qui Gon Ginn.
  21. DarthDilly Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2005
    I always reckoned that Anakin was seen as a Force ghost at the end of ROTJ because, somehow, Obi-Wan and Yoda kinda "escorted" Ani's spirit, if you will, when he came back to the light and died.
  22. b-wingmasterburnz Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2004
    star 3
    So should it not even be considered to put Qui-Gon's ghost at the end of ROTJ for the next edit? I mean, I think it would be nice for Qui-Gon to come back and see the Prophecy that he defended so much be fulfilled. Yes, maybe Luke wouldn't know him, but maybe he could just look upon him and know his significance through the Force, somehow. Like how Leia always knew, somehow, she and Luke were siblings.

    Or, that would just raise more questions. Like, you can say that Anakin faded offscreen, but you can't for Qui-Gon. I don't know.
  23. Kakkaraun Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2005
    star 1
    It's ridiculously straightforward: Qui-Gon figured it out after he died, while floating around in the void and struggling to maintain his identity, and taught it to Yoda dn Obi-Wan, who then were able to do it at the moment of death. As for Vader, I think it was some combination of his final peace at death, his Chosen-One status, and like someone else said, being escorted by the others.
  24. Darth_Pott Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 24, 2004
    star 1
    Why does Anakin's ghost bug people? If anything, his makes the most sense because of his unwillingness to let go.

    Vader's rage and hatred were powerful enough to keep him alive after getting burned up on Mustafar. His unwillingness to let go and surrender to death sustain him, in a twisted sense. So, I think one of Vader's obsessions (before latching onto the pesky pilot who destroyed his Death Star) was Darth Plagueis and the secret of eternal life. He probably studied the same things Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Yoda discovered. And when Vader finally became Anakin once more, the dying Anakin finally let go of physical life but remained a conscious spirit with the Force.

    Shoot, I don't know. But it makes sense when I think about it.

    DP
  25. DarthSyphus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 1
    I think Qui-Gon did not disappear because he did not plan to become one with the Force. He planned to kill Maul, but he was caught by surprise. Obi-Wan and Yoda anticipated their death, that is why they were able to make their body disappear.

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