Why Obi-Wan disappears and Qui-Gon doesn?t - an unfortunate conundrum

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Kisho_Meteora, May 15, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Maranelo_Jori Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 22, 2004
    star 2
    Hmmm,before the PT it was like matter of course that Jedi dissapears after they death.For me it seems like that Qui-Gon didnt dissapered because Lucas needed his funeral scene where some characters could talk.
  2. Merek Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2005
    The Annotated Screenplays say that in an early draft of ROTJ, Kenobi and Yoda's ghosts are there during the final battle, and that after Vader dies, Kenobi is able to grab Anakin's spirit before he joins the force. I would guess that this was GL's thinking, he just didn't include it in the movie.

    As for Qui-Gon, the previous posts do a good job of explaining why his body wouldn't disappear (he didn't know how to do that at the time). But over the next 20 years, Qui Gon, Yoda, and Kenobi are able to figure out how to retain the body's form in the Netherworld. I could see how they could all discover this together, and that Qui Gon 's ghost would appear at the end of Jedi. That would really tie all both Prequels together. Maybe in the Special Editions v. 2.0.
  3. Sith_lord_Kajuma Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2005
    If Obi-wan captured Anikans "soul" then why did Luke burned his father on Endor? To give respect or to show the old Jedi tradition like they have showed Qui-Gon.
  4. Circle_Is_Complete Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 3
    I think it was part tradition. Part burning the thing that represented the evil he faught for such a long time. It represented the evils his father had done.
  5. LovedAnakin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2005
    star 2
    I think that before Qui Gon passed on, he did not know how to retain his identity in the force. Yoda in rtos said that qui gon had discovered the key to immortality. This leads me to believe that qui gon discovered this in the afterlife. Yoda and Obi wan learned of this before their death. They both trained themselves to do this. So when they died they disappeared immediately. Thanks to Qui gon's afterlife discovery. [face_idea]
  6. Darth_Ingenious Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2002
    I was always curious when in ROTS, Anakin says something like " I know there are things they(the jedi) aren't teaching/telling me". or "keeping from me". Could this be a clue as to Anakin trying to discover the same ideas as yoda and obi-wan? I mean, you know he had to hear qui-gon in AOTC, maybe qui-gon was speaking to him throughout the series and he never mentioned it to the others, it would be his own little secret?

    I'm grasping obviously, but I think it just comes down to GL just making a movie.
  7. jedi-girl-927 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 2005
    saora_bin, i think thats right it seems reasonable, thts wht i beleive, thanks

    -Sav.
  8. DON_QUITO12 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2005
    star 1
    The answer for this topic is that Qui-Gon Jinn learned to communicate with the force after being strucked by Darth Maul's doble lightsaber.

    Obi Wan was taught by Yoda and Qui Gon Jinn, according to Yoda's last words at the end of ROTS...

    Remember Ben's words right before being strucked by Darth Vader: "If you struck me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possible imagine..."

    Qui Gon didn't say those words... Therefore, he must learned it after "passing away" and passed on his apprentice, Obi Wan...
  9. Winston_Sith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2004
    star 4
    The key phrase in Qui-Gon's diatribe to Yoda is:

    "the Shaman of the Whills".

    The Shaman of the Whills (according to the OS databank), was an outside (i.e. outside the Jedi Order) influence on Qui-Gon's perception of the Force. The Shaman of the Whills possessed the secret power to retain one's identity after death.

    Case closed.

    LOCK IT!!!!

    NOW!!!

    lol
  10. Jedi_Heretic Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2005
    star 1
    Well I think that id you watch the scene where Obi Wan becomes one with the force, you will see that he actually leaves before Vader swipes him through, this can also be seen with Yoda, almost as if it is ok for him to go like he is expecting it, like he along with Obi Wan were ready to do it.

    Qui Gon Jinn I feel the reason he did not vanish into the force is that he was not aware that his time was coming. I do not think he had enough time to prepare himself for the journey. However we know that he has unlocked the secret, AOTC and ROTS are proof of this. I think that one must have time to prepare themselves for this, this letting go of all things, I do not think that Qui Gon during his battle with Darht Maul was doing that, however I do think that when he stopped and meditated is when he started the process or atlest listened to the will of the force, I think he more than any other Jedi was more in tune with the living force and its will.

    Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker when he died there on the Deathstar, he did not disappear, we see that he just dies and lays back on the ramp of the shuttle, then we see Luke give him a pyre where he is burned, just like we saw the Jedi do in TPM with Qui Gon's body both of them did not disappear.
  11. shadowplay_80 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 2
    I just realized something.
    The 2 jedi that learn this ability beforehand and do it on purpose (Obi-Wan and Yoda) disappear.
    While the 2 jedi that discover it accidentally don't disappear. (Qui-Gon was the first to retain his identity, he kind of stumbled upon it. And Anakin, according to Lucas in the ROTJ commentary, became a force ghost with Yoda and Obi-Wan's help)

    Just a thought.
  12. Moleman1138 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2004
    star 6
    Qui-Gon, Mace, Mundi, Aayla, Luminara, Plo (trying to think of all the Jedi that were killed in the PT) didn't know how to retain their identity. Qui-Gon figured it out between TPM and AOTC then taught Yoda and Obi-Wan. Anakin doesn't know either but Obi-Wan taught him after DS II and before celebration on Endor.
  13. ARC-Trooper19 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 22, 2005
    star 3
    I think that Obi-Wan dissappears because he is letting himself be destroyed to become an even greater good, while Qui-gon was fighting for his life and everything else, he wasnt expecting to be destroyed.
  14. sith_rising Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2004
    star 4
    The same reason it takes 20 years to build the first Death Star, only a few years to build the second. The first one is always a pain. My guess it that it took Qui-Gon a while to become fully integrated into the Force, and perhaps his body would never have disintegrated if he hadn't been cremated. He passed what he had learned to Yoda, who refined it, and passed this onto Ben. If Ben taught it to Luke, he probably had a simplified method, as many masters had practiced and learned it over the years.
  15. Dean1138 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2005
    star 1
    The real story of what happened to Qui-Gon:

    ________________________________________________________________________________

    INT. SKYWALKER RANCH - LARGE CONFERENCE ROOM

    George LUCAS, Rick McCALLUM, Ben BURTT and Rob COLEMAN sit in a row in front of an assortment of journalists.
    Posters of Episode I and a variety of props from the film decorate the room.

    COLEMAN: . . . .so as you can see that's a lot more special effects than have ever been done for a film of this scale

    JOURNALIST: Mr Lucas, now that the first installment of the new Star Wars Trilogy has hit the screens . . .

    LUCAS smiles and nods.

    JOURNALIST: . . . I was just wondering how you might explain the differences between the death of Liam Neeson's character and the Death of Ben Kenobi

    LUCAS: Well you see those two events were always meant to mirror one another, like in a symphony - they are both meant to reinforce the other . . .

    JOURNALIST: (interrupting) Sorry, what I meant Mr Lucas is that in this film Liam Neeson's character, Qui-Gon, is killed and his body is then cremated in an elaborate funeral scene

    LUCAS nods politely

    JOURNALIST: (continues) But then in the original Star Wars . . .

    McCALLUM: (interrupting) Episode Four, A New Hope

    JOURNALIST: (Pauses) Yes . . . that one . . . well Ben Kenobi disappears when he is killed?

    Long pause as room becomes deathly silent. BURTT, COLEMAN and McCALLUM shift in their seats.

    LUCAS: Umm. . . well . . . err . . . well . . . you see . . .umm . . . the thing is about poetry . . . and fresco painting . . . errr . . . (trails of)

    Silence again as LUCAS furiously leafs through his notes

    McCALLUM: This is something that I'm sure George has thought about and it will be spelled out in excrutiating detail in the next two films . . . such a bold move . . . simply awesome . . .

    LUCAS: Yes, yes . . thought about . . . next two films . . .yes

    BURTT: (chuckles) George is hardly going to fiddle with something that has been Star Wars lore for the past twenty years without having a very good reason for it . Don't worry, it will all be crystal clear and fully understood by the time Episode Three is released.

    LUCAS nods enthusiastically as he removes a handkerchief and wipes his brow.
    _______________________________________________________________________________________
  16. BrideofVader Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 18, 2005
    star 1
    Qui Gon doesn't disappear. Yoda and Obiwan do. They were prepared and knew they were about to die. Qui Gon was surprised. Perhaps this is why you never "see" Qui Gon's ghost, you only hear it. I am not sure of Anakin. You never see him disappear, and his suit, at least, is cremated. But you see all of him as ghost at the end of ROTJ. I don't think Anakin/Vader disappeared. I think he died and the reason his return as ghost is because, well, he is the Chosen One.
  17. chopman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2005
    star 1
    Hello I wanted to throw my two cents into this because I feel that I might be able to shed some light on this question. I think to understand what happened you have to consider everything that the movies tell us about life and death.

    1.Yoda states that a Jedi should not form attachments to others because when they die they become one with the force (ep3)

    2.He tells ObiWan that he has extra training that he learned from QuiGon (ep3). That tells us that QuiGon learned it himself and then taught Yoda from the other world.

    3.Sidious tells Anakin that only one has figured out the secret to cheating death, I infer that he means QuiGon (ep3).

    So what does that give us?

    Up until the time of EP1 people would die and become part of the force. Quigon figured out a way to talk to the living post-death. Before fighting Maul he began invoking the ability fearing that he might die in the battle, which he did. He then came back to talk to Yoda and to teach him how to do it. He also taught him how to do it without meditating and without leaving a physical body there. That's why when Yoda and ObiWan die they dissapear and they don't meditate right before death.

    Now Anakin is very strong with the force, perhaps he figured out how to do this as well, or maybe he was able to channel Quigon's instructions or something. The point is that he figured out how to do it, he just didn't have the exact training to do it as well as Qui/Obi/Yoda and that's why his body didn't dissapear. He simply didn't learn that part, only how to come back as a ghost and communicate with the living.
  18. darth_ral Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2004
    star 1
    I agree with everything except the Plagueis line.
  19. JEDI-RISING Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 15, 2005
    star 3
    Obi-Wan and Yoda basically became one with the force at their own will. Qui-Gon learned this power after he had already died. I think the two things, becoming one with the force at will, and keeping your identity are two separate things. You can die without planning on it and disappearing, and still retain your identity if you know how.
  20. LemmingLord Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2005
    star 4
    I just take the whole "Qui Gon will teach you how to retain your identity" scene and blank it from my mind. Then the whole series makes sense to me.

    They're just ghosts. Sometimes their dead body fades; sometimes they don't; if they don't, you've got to burn em to free the ghost. Thats all. :)
  21. blicknasty Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 9, 2004
    star 4
    It is my firm belief that he had a premonition through the force that Luke was going to shout out ?Ben? if he lost to Vader and he then died due to sheer disappointment that he didn?t call him Obi-Wan even in his final seconds. Hence Obi-Wan died naturally and disappeared becoming one with the force.


    I hope you're kidding.
  22. BigDaddy_Darth Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2005
    I think it might have something to do with the fact that Qui Gon and Anikin/Vader were both fataly wounded at the time of the crossover. Yoda and Obi Wan were ready to go and had enough of a physical presence to meditate themselves into dissapearing from the physical World.

    You also look at Qui Gon and Vader, and they both have something to say to someone after the fatal wounding occurs. Qui Gon Still has to tell Obi Wan to train Anikin and by the time he is done he might not be physically well enough to dissapear. Vader on the other hand still has part of the almighty REDEMPTION to experience when Luke takes of his mask and they have their first and last conversation as father and son. It is never even infered that vader dissapeard.

    The two parrallels here are Qui Gon/Anikin and the other is Yoda/Obi Wan

    Think about it Qui Gon and Anikin were both wounded in a duel, they both had the talks with the son figures, and they are both burned in the fire in a very similar scene, both envoking visions of the other one.

    And meanwhile Yoda and Obi/Wan have been living and learning and waiting for that moment for over 20 years and they both dissappear and all you see are the robes left behind.
  23. MasterVodo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2005
    star 1
    I'm sorry I can't recall the source but I'm pretty sure Lucas has said that Anakin does indeed dissappear off camera. The scene does cut very quickly(a lame expalaination, yes, but it does work). Luke only burns Vader's armour on Endor. Why else would he put his mask (the metaphoric face of evil) back on him if his body was still there? You would think he would want to display the face of Anakin Skywalker.
  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Never fear, I have the quotes here. Yeah, it's lame. :p

    "So Ben has managed to keep his identity after he became one with the Force. One of the things he was doing on Tatooine besides watching over Luke was learning how to keep his identity after he became part of the Force."

    --George Lucas, Star Wars-A New Hope: The Annotated Screenplays, 1997.

    "The big surprise is that (Obi-Wan) doesn't die - he's able to join the Force at will and retain his identity, and influence things in a more powerful way than he could just by being a Jedi."

    --George Lucas, ANH DVD Commentary.

    "We cut to Yoda, who is meditating, who hears this (the Tusken slaughter) off-screen, and we do hear a voice in there, and that voice is the voice of Qui-Gon Jinn. So we very subtly establish that in this rather intense emotional connection, where Yoda is feeling the pain and suffering of Anakin and the Tusken Raiders, he's also making a connection, unwittingly, with Qui-Gon Jinn. Up to this point (in the saga), we haven't established that you can make a connection with the departed in this world, and that will become a factor in Episode III. Lots of issues sort of come out of that - but this is the very beginning of it. Yoda making a connection with Qui-Gon Jinn in the middle of Anakin's pain."

    --George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

    The voice is indeed Qui-Gon Jinn's - including the pained cry of "noooooo!" at the end. Somehow, the Jedi hero of Episode I has been able to retain his spirit in the netherworld as we see Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin do in the original trilogy."

    --Pablo Hidalgo, Hyperspace.

    "We never see the ghost of Qui-Gon; he's not that accomplished. He's able to retain his personality, but he's not able to become a corporeal ghost."

    --George Lucas, page 40 of the Making Of ROTS.

    "There?s a hint of how Obi-wan eventually has learned to give up his physical being and becomes one with the Force and you understand here that his old master Qui-Gon has something to do with it - come back from the netherworld of the Force and teach him how to do it."

    --George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

    In the rough draft?Ben explains that?if "Vader becomes one with the dark side of the Force, he will lose all identity. If he turns to the good side, he will pass through the Netherworld" and in the revised rough draft, Yoda "will rescue him before he becomes one with the Force."

    --Lorenzo Bouzereau, explanation from Star Wars The Annotated Screenplays page 300.

    "This little scene where he burns his father's body, it wasn't originally in the script. But I decided it gave more closure in terms of Luke's relationship to his father, letting go of his father. Even though later on, as we get to the end of the movie, as he joins the Force, he was able to retain his original identity, it's because of Obi-Wan and Yoda, who learnt how to do that: how to join the Force at will and then retain your identity. But it was his 'identity as he was when he died as Anakin Skywalker.'"

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    "In addition to the Zen-like Force that "surrounds us and penetrates us...(and) binds the galaxy together," as Obi-wan tells Luke, another Eastern religious element can be found in Vader's resemblance to demons that, in the Buddhist tradition, were at one time human and, through the actions of Buddha or his followers, are freed from their demonic state.

    They usually wind up dying and through death are released from their demonic state. Again, that's a parallel to Vader, who is only freed at the point of his death."

    --Shanti Fader, USA Today article and "Star Wars And Philosophy."

    For the shot in which Luke Skywalker sees his father appear as a spirit in the company of Yoda and Obi-Wan, Hayden Christensen has been inserted in place of Sebastian Shaw. Following a brief discussion, Lucas confirms that he does not want to age Christensen, explaining that Anakin has reverted to who he was when he went over to the dark side."

    --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith.

    "[Hayden in
  25. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    "This little scene where he burns his father's body.

    So, Vader's body didn't disappear? They used to say all Luke did was burn his the armour.

    I always thought he burned his body. Which one is it?
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.