CT Why Obi-wan & Yoda lied to Luke

Luke's the only Jedi, there are no Sith (as of ROTJ)- and the "balance means an equal number of Sith and Jedi" theory is wrong according to Word of Lucas. We've got those statements in interviews about how Anakin's killing of Sidious brought balance to the force"

"Then we will get to the 3rd film, where he is seduced to the dark side, which brings up to films four, five, and six, where Anakin's offspring redeem him & allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe."

--George Lucas, The Star Wars Trilogy VHS Boxset 2000.

Maybe we should take his word for it - at least with "evil" meaning powerful Force-related evil, rather than something more mundane.

 

Or he wants Luke to realize that he needs to forge his own way and thus says the opposite of what Luke is feeling, in order to provoke the correct response.

Because Luke wasn't ready for the burden of knowing that his father was a monster. Not until he had been trained and could understand the Force. Look at him in TESB, he can barely grasp the concept of the Force.

YODA: "Run! Yes. A Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger... fear...aggression. The dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once youstart down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice."

LUKE: "Vader. Is the dark side stronger?"

YODA: "No... no... no. Quicker, easier, more seductive."

LUKE: "But how am I to know the good sidefrom the bad?"

YODA: "You will know. When you are calm, at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."

LUKE: "But tell me why I can't..."

YODA: "No, no, there is no why. Nothing more will I teach you today. Clear your mind of questions."


Luke doesn't understand the Force that well and it is only through the experience of the cave, and his humbling at Vader's blade, that he starts to understand. Luke hasn't grown up with the Force like Obi-wan has. He doesn't have the years of training that would allow him to understand the right and wrong of the situation. He needs to learn about the Force, before he can learn the truth.

I don't think it ever went away.

Except that it is in balance and as Lucas said, the Sith were the cause of the imbalance because of what they did during the PT era. Regardless of who Kylo Ren is, regardless of any surviving Inquisitors, despite the Nightsisters and Nightbrothers, the dark side and the light are now in balance. We know from the trailer that there has been an awakening in the Force on both sides. This might be the Force user sensing the death of the Sith in ROTJ.

"If good and evil are mixed things become blurred - there is nothing between good and evil, everything is gray. In each of us we to have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this. In The Phantom Menace one of the Jedi Council already knows the balance of the Force is starting to slip, and will slip further. It is obvious to this person that the Sith are going to destroy this balance. On the other hand a prediction which is referred to states someone will replace the balance in the future. At the right time a balance may again be created, but presently it is being eroded by dark forces."

--George Lucas, Cut Magazine Interview, 1999.

"It's not that they can't see the dark side coming, it's just that the dark side begins to envelop everything. It's like walking into a fog. The Jedi's ability to see lessens as the dark side grows."

--George Lucas, Starlog Magazine Interview

"There is a hint in the movie that there was a Sith Lord who had the power to create life. But it's left unsaid: Is Anakin a product of a super-Sith who influenced the Midichlorians to create him, or is he simply created by the Midichlorians to bring forth a prophecy, or was he created by the Force through the Midichlorians? It's left up to the audience to decide. How he was born ultimately has no relationship to how he dies, because in the end, the prophecy is true: Balance comes back to the Force."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stone Magazine, 2005.

"The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the one ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 221

"I think it is obvious that [Qui-Gon] was wrong in Episode I and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The “phantom menace” refers to the force of the dark side of the universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader—also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction and Qui-Gon are correct—Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrifice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor."

--George Lucas, Cut Magazine interview, 1999.

 

Why would you teach someone by telling them to do the opposite thing you want them to do? That just doesn't make much sense to me. And if that was the case, then I would have to either assume that (1) Obi-wan meant that all of the time and always wanted Luke to do the opposite of what he was telling him to do or (2) he wanted Luke to do the opposite of what he was telling him to do only sometimes, and Luke has to figure out for himself when Obi-wan actually wants him to do something and when he doesn't. That is an extremely confusing teaching method. No wonder Anakin turned Sith.
If Obi-wan really wanted Luke to forge his own way, he should have just told him so straight on.

Yeah, and I'm sure in a couple of years he would be totally prepared for it. Honestly, I really don't think there was any way to prepare Luke for something like that. I'm not really sure he'd ever be 'ready' for it.
And, anyway, it seems like it should be Luke's decision to decide if he is ready for it, not Obi-wan and Yoda's. Luke isn't a minor anymore, and he can make decisions for himself. They could have broken the news as gently as possible, or perhaps told Luke that they could tell him the truth, but that Luke wouldn't like it, or something.

I'm not sure exactly what learning about the Force and learning who his father is have in common. I guess that learning more about the Force could have given Luke more of a sense of balance or something....but I still think he would have been shocked to learn Vader was his father, because I still think the only one who would have told him the truth is Vader. And even if Yoda or Ben did tell him, he would probably still be shocked. And maybe Luke would understand the Force better if Yoda would answer his questions instead of just saying, "No, no, there is no why." Not super helpful.

 

It was something new that Obi-wan was trying with Luke where he failed with Anakin. Remember, this is Obi-wan who was told to do something that he felt strongly against and in the end, couldn't pull the trigger and used a compromise which didn't work after all.

He was far more ready after his training than he was before then. That's why Vader wasn't able to turn Luke using the fact that Obi-wan had lied to him. Note that Vader is surprised that Luke refused to join him and his anger at Obi-wan was not as great as Anakin's had been. Even in the dialogue that didn't make it into the film, Obi-wan stated that Luke held firm.

Age has nothing to do with it. The Force is a power, but a dangerous one. If Luke learned the truth before he was ready, he might very well refuse to undergo the training out of fear that he could be just as bad as his father was. Understanding the Force would have a profound impact and it did. Now that he knew the truth and knew of the dangers of the dark side, he was better able to confront the Sith and reject the dark side.

That's why Yoda had Luke stop running right near the tree cave. It was time for Luke to get an object lesson in the dark side of the Force. And when it was over, note that Yoda brings it up later.

YODA: "Yes, yes. To Obi-wan you listen to. The cave. Remember your failure at the cave."

When he hears this, Luke pauses for a moment to remember what he saw. He remembers what happened when he used his emotions to fight Vader.

 

They do not lie, just explain his origins in a figurative manner. It's done to keep Luke from revealing his identity to Vader with his mind and potentially endangering himself. It's also not to overwhelm him with the burden to make sure his completes his training as a Jedi.

 

"Vader murdered your father" doesn't really make that much sense even in figurative terms. As anakinfansince1983 points out - the problem is not the lying itself, but not copping to it afterward, and making the "From a certain point of view" excuse.

 

Except that as far as the Jedi and Sith are concerned, they stop being who they were and become someone else. Palpatine and Dooku only use their birth names when it is necessary, otherwise they're addressed by their Sith names when talking to each other. Likewise, Palpatine never uses Vader and Maul's real names once they've been indoctrinated. Yoda and Obi-wan do the same thing with Palpatine, addressing him as Sidious or Emperor.

OBI-WAN: "Send me to kill the Emperor. I will not kill Anakin."

YODA: "To fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough, you are not."

OBI-WAN: "He is like my brother … I cannot do it."

YODA: "Twisted by the dark side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is . . . Consumed by Darth Vader."

OBI-WAN: "I do not know where the Emperor has sent him. I don’t know where to look."

YODA: "Use your feelings, Obi-Wan, and find him, you will. Visit the new Emperor, my task is."


YODA: "I hear a new apprentice, you have. Emperor, or should I call you Darth Sidious."

Meanwhile, Obi-wan keeps calling Vader by his real name throughout the rest of the film until the end. Then in the OT, he only addresses him as Vader or your father and uses his real name twice

OBI-WAN: "You can't win, Darth. If you strike down now I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."


OBI-WAN: "Anakin was a good friend."


OBI-WAN: "You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again."

LUKE: "I can't kill my own father."

OBI-WAN: "Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope."

LUKE: "Yoda spoke of another."

OBI-WAN: "The other he spoke of is your twin sister."

LUKE: "But I have no sister."

OBI-WAN: "To protect you both from the Emperor... you were hidden from your father when you were born. The Emperor knew, as I did... if Anakin were to have any offspring... they would be a threat to him. That is the reason why your sister remains safely anonymous."

So the point of view still holds true.

 

Yoda and Obi-Wan saw Vader as a different person after Anakin's fall. ("...Gone he is,consumed by Darth Vader) His original life ended (hence the awful SE change to Jedi. ) and a new one begun as Vader.


I'm thinking that Obi-Wan also kinda used Anakin's "death" as an "emotional escape hatch", making it easier to do what he knew Luke had to do in confronting Vader. They wanted Luke to see Vader as a "different" personality than Anakin, as they did, in order to get the job done.

 

Obi-Wan and Yoda made a judgement call about what they tell Luke and how. The "certain point of view" idea is also one that can and does draw criticism. Some believe that they should have been more up-front and open with Luke from the beginning (I like what we are given in the films).

I think Obi-Wan and Yoda knew what the idea of "father" meant to Luke. It is a major driving element for Luke. Luke has wondered (dreamed, fantasized) about his father all his life. Obi-Wan is aware of this, in their discussion in his hut. When he decides to go, Luke mentions "I want to learn about the force and become a Jedi like my father." And, to Yoda's question as to why Luke wants to become a Jedi, Luke answers: "mostly because of my father, I guess." They want to be very careful about how Luke is trained and issues of "readiness," and they make the judgement call not to tell him that his father=Vader.

Now, it is more complicated in that Obi-Wan tells Luke that Vader murdered Luke's father. This is true from the POV and all. I also think that Obi-Wan, when he says this to Luke, is thinking: "I'm telling him this now, but I am going to say this when I explain the rest." He clearly tells this to Luke in the hut on Tatooine because he thinks this is what Luke is ready for and that he thinks this will help Luke decide to go with him, but he's also (IMO) thinking of and planning/playing the long game.

 

Because they're Jedi and that's what they do

 

I believe that one reason Obi-Wan lied to Luke is that he, Obi-Wan, couldn't handle what happened on Mustafar. He couldn't deal with the fact that he had used his pregnant friend to find a potentially dangerous Sith who attacks her over his presence, maims his best friend who was like his brother and son before watching him burn alive, possibly feeling him call out in the Force asking him to 'end it' but he wakes away leaving him to die. I wouldn't be surprised if Obi-Wan has nightmares of the events of Mustafar and that the smell of burning meat or flesh makes him ill or has him flashing back to Mustafar.

In a sense Obi-Wan could have lied to himself so he could deal with it even though he knew that he wasn't being truthful so when Luke asks what really happened to his father Obi-Wan can't bring himself to tell him the truth because he hasn't come to terms with it yet and to admit that Anakin became Vader reminds him of all of his failures and how he didn't fight for his best friend or asked the questions that bothered him and then the horror of Mustafar so he tells the truth from a certain point of view.

I do think though that there is some truth to the fact that they didn't want Luke or Leia to know the truth to prevent either a misguided rescue attempt or them being tempted to strike him down with rage.

 

according to what happened in rots they wanted luke to destroy vader and the emperor, that's what they both tried to do and failed. there's no doubt they feel vader is lost and must be destroyed. yoda and obi tell luke he must kill vader or the emperor has already won.

luke feels vader can be turned but he has no guarantee. he goes with vader for this reason and for another purpose entirely. the plan to blow up the ds is underway and he wants to divert any attention away from the endor moon.

luke assumes the rebels will kill him, vader and palps by blowing up the ds. he's pretty much stalling until they all explode. that's basically his plan. self sacrifice to destroy the sith. obviously things don't work out that way. the force, as it were, works in mysterious ways that even yoda and kenobi didn't count on.

 

I don't think everyone is going to feel the same about what Yoda and Obi-Wan did. Some fans probably didn't have a problem with what they did and some did. I guess I would be among the latter.

 

I did consider that Obi-wan was trying some new teaching method with Luke, but it still doesn't make sense. Or, if you go with that theory, it leaves anything Obi-wan tells Luke to do up for further analyzation as to whether he wants Luke to actually do what Ben is telling him or not. Does he want Luke to rush back to the Lars homestead? Does he want Luke to use the Force instead of his targeting computer? Does he want Luke to find Yoda? Does he want Luke to confront Vader? If you go with the 'Obi-wan wants Luke to do the opposite of what he tells him to do' theory, it leaves everything Obi-wan tells Luke to do up for debate.
Personally, I don't see how this theory can work. But if it works for you, that's great. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Then Obi-wan and Yoda should have told him the truth right after his training, right before he left to duel Vader. Instead, they decide not to tell the truth, and the one who ends up telling the truth is the bad guy.
And I've never really thought that Vader was trying to turn Luke to the dark side because of the lie Obi-wan told, but more because of the truth that Vader is Luke's father. Vader doesn't seem to hone in on the fact that Obi-wan lied. He seems more interested on the fact that he is related to Luke, and that they should rule the galaxy as father as son. That's how I see things, anyway.
And I admit I'm not familiar with the dialogue that didn't make it into the film, so I can't really debate you on that. But since it didn't make it into the film, it seems a bit irrelevant.

Again, I don't think Luke would ever really be 'ready' to know the truth. Luke wasn't ready for the truth, but he dealt with it anyway and he still completed his training on his own. And I noticed that you said Luke was more equipped to confront the Sith and reject the dark side after he knew the truth.

I admit I don't really understand Luke's 'failure' at the cave. I thought it was more of manifestation of his two greatest fears: fighting Vader and becoming like Vader. I didn't really see that as a success or a defeat. Perhaps you could explain it to me?

Yes. Anything is true from a 'certain point of view.' Another thing I don't like about Obi-wan and Yoda lying to Luke. After Luke discovers the truth and confronts the Jedi master about it, Obi-wan, instead of admitting he had lied, tries to justify himself a bit bending the truth.

Vader already knew who Luke was so it hardly mattered. 'Skywalker' is hardly subtle.

Well, apparently he could handle the truth, or he was forced to, enough to complete his training. Without Ben and Yoda's help I might add.

 

Why did Obi-Wan let Owen and Beru raise Luke? He could have taken him under his wing and raised him as a Jedi padawan at a young age instead of leaving him in the dark.

 

Because Obi, and that's my opinion, has given up. They've both given up, Obi and Yoda. When the droids reach Obi-Wan, it is like a call from the force that he should step in the game again. But even then, Yoda is still reluctant, he isn't sure whether he should train Luke.

 

Agreed.
Obi-Wan and Yoda go into exile because, in the words of Yoda, they "failed to defeat the Sith"

 

He failed massively with Anakin. Training another uncontrollable Skywalker would lead the Empire right to him.

 

That's if you want to apply it to everything. Here it is more specific that he wants Luke to figure out on his own how to deal with Vader, which is to tell him to do something that he knows feels is wrong, so that he can do what he feels is right. Just as he told Luke that he must do what he feels is right with regards to joining him on his mission to Alderaan. A way of getting Luke to think and feel that he couldn't with Anakin.

YODA: "Luke! You must complete the training."

LUKE: "Master Yoda, I promise to return and finish what I've begun. You have my word."

Luke's training wasn't finished. That's why Obi-wan and Yoda don't want him to go. They fear that he will fail and either fall or die. They believed still that he wasn't ready yet. It is only after Luke's confrontation with Vader and his rescuing of Han, that they both feel that he is ready.

VADER: "Obi-wan never told you what happened to your father."

He sensed in Luke that he didn't know the truth. He sensed that Luke hated him because he had killed Anakin. Part of his revelation was to appeal to him due to his familiar connection, but it was also to show that Obi-wan was a right bastard in not telling Luke. The effect is clear later on.

LUKE: "Ben, why didn't you tell me?"

During the writing of ROTJ, Lucas and Kasdan wrote that Luke was angry at Obi-wan. Though the level and degree of anger became softer and more subtle as the story progressed. Originally, Luke was angry up until just before fighting Vader. It evolved to Luke being angry when Obi-wan shows up, but he lets go of his anger as Obi-wan explains everything to Luke.

That's because he had most of a year to digest what he had been told and had continued his training, before he talked to his Masters and before he confronted the Sith. He wasn't ready when he left Dagobah for Cloud City and even Luke realizes that he wasn't ready. Hence he apologizes to Yoda for his error.

I'll let Lucas and Kershner do that.

"He's still weak. He's gotta be strengthened. And Yoda's the one to do it. That's his job. Now, he has to go and explore a cave, because he's in training and this is what Yoda tells him to go. And there's a seriousness to Yoda's face here because he knows what's going to happen because actually he's setting it up, what's going to happen in the cave, because Luke is going to have to face himself. "

--Irvin Kershner, TESB Commentary.

"Part of the going into the tree is learning about the Force. Learning about the fact that the Force is within you, and at the same time, you create your own bad vibes. So, if you think badly about things or you act badly, or you bring fear into a situation, you're going to have to defend yourself or you're going to have to suffer the consequences for that. In this particular case, he takes his sword in with him which means he's going to have combat. If he didn't, he wouldn't. He's creating this situation in his mind because, on a larger level, what caused Darth Vader to become Darth Vader is the same thing that makes Luke bring that sword in with him. And so, just as later on we find out Darth Vader is actually his father - so he is part of himself - but he has the capacity to become Darth Vader simply by using hate and fear and using weapons as oppose to using compassion and caring and kindness. But that's the big danger of the series, is that he will become Darth Vader."

--George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.

That's not bending the truth. As he said, points of view are part of life. One person may disagree about one view point, such as racism and sexism, while another person would have a completely opposite view point. In TPM, Obi-wan says that Anakin is dangerous and Qui-gon refutes that as being his point of view. In ROTS, Palpatine tells Anakin that good is a point of view. One that is not universally shared by all living beings. This leads to Obi-wan and Anakin each declaring that Palpatine and the Jedi are evil. Obi-wan speaks the truth that exists, but Anakin sees a different point of view based on what he wants to believe regarding the Jedi and the Republic. Then there's Yoda who says that Anakin is gone and now there is only Vader.

It wasn't because of a desire to give up. Yoda knows that he is going to train someone important one day. He's been told this by Serenity and heard his own voice say, "there is another Skywalker." Luke and Leia exist as potential Jedi who can defeat the Sith. But now is not the time. So they let them be raised by families to learn how to live life differently from how the other Jedi did. This was the evolving that is necessary to defeating the Sith.

 

Luke and Leia's upbringings weren't a part of some New Jedi training program. They were raised by families to be kept "hidden" and "safe," because as we all know in Empire Strikes Back, the Sith can sense it when they have a new "enemy." Obi-Wan even literally tells us why they were split up and hidden in Return of the Jedi. Obi-Wan may want to turn Luke into a Jedi someday, but there are no plans to.

This wasn't to teach them how to live life differently from how other Jedi did. It was to not teach them anything at all because it was dangerous to even begin any sort of training.

 

Actually, it was. Luke and Leia needed to learn how to be able to love compassionately without having been trained solely as a Jedi Knight from the start. Hence they're raised by families and not be attached. It wasn't just for their protection, but for the long term benefit of the Jedi Order.

 

That definitely wasn't Yoda or Obi-Wan's intention.

 

How do you know it wasn't?

 

Great point. I concur. Obi-Wan must have been traumatized and therefore had a little PSTD over what transpired on Mustafar. So, it may not have been just about trying to protect Luke and Leia from Vader and their own emotions. Obi-Wan must have been filled with both determination and guilt, and he didn't want Luke to go down a similar path to his father. And Yoda didn't want Luke to be corrupted.

 

I don't see how it is more specific here. Luke has done everything Obi-wan has told him to do up to this point. And all of a sudden, Obi-wan changes tactics and wants Luke not to listen to him? Why not just plainly state what you want Luke to do? It's easier that way.
Anakin could think and feel just fine. The trouble was, Anakin already had ideas of his own when he was brought into the Jedi Order. He hadn't been taught to think the same things as the other Jedi, which is one of the reason they didn’t trust him. And I think, before ROTS, Anakin, for the most part, tried to do what was right. It is just sometimes what he thought was right and what Obi-wan thought was right were two different things. Kind of like with Luke and Obi-wan. Luke thinks killing his father is wrong and searches for an alternative, but Obi-wan believes the right thing to do is to kill Vader.

Yep. Luke was definitely ready after his confrontation with Vader and rescuing Han.

Obi-wan: "Luke, now that you know the truth anyway, I have something really important to tell you. Darth Vader is your father."
Luke: "Gee, thanks, Ben, but I already figured that out."

Well, Obi-wan did lie to Luke. And usually when friends lie to each other, it results in anger. That would be very hurtful, having someone you trusted and respected, and realizing that they didn't trust you and had lied to you. Even if Vader didn't bring that up in the duel, it wouldn't really matter. He would come to the conclusion that Obi-wan lied to him himself.

Yeah, he had most of a year to digest the truth because Vader, not Ben, not Yoda, but Vader told him.

I'm still not sure how that counts as a failure. It sounds neutral to me, not really a success or a victory, but just there. It sounds like more of a warning.

Um, yes, that is bending the truth. And yes, points of view are part of life. Otherwise, everyone would have the same opinions, people would be pretty dull and homogenous, and we wouldn't be having this conversation. The thing is, once you try to justify your actions by saying it is true 'from a certain point of view’, you have gone to a dark place indeed. For example: It’s okay for Cad Bane to steal holocrons because it's part of his job, it's okay for Ezra to steal because he needs food, it's okay for Palpatine to wipe out the Jedi because they’re his enemies anyway, it's okay for Krell to let the clones be slaughtered on the battlefield because that's what they were created for in the first place, it's okay for Vader to kill his own officers because they were incompetent anyway, it's okay for Plo to lie and cover up for Ahoska because their friends...etc, etc. So you see my point. Stealing, lying, murdering...those are all wrong. You can try to justify them by saying that from a certain point of view it is true, but there is only one truth. And sure, the truth can and does hurt more. But that doesn't give you a free pass to be able to lie all the time.