Why Palpatine was able to fullfill the Sith dream

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Ghost, May 27, 2006.

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  1. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    The Jedi serve the government, but were not compassionate, as we see in TPM the boundaries of the Republic are the boundaries of the Jedi's influence. The Outer Rim is forgotten by the Senate and the Republic, they even ignored the Naboo crisis, and corporations have become a part of the government. That is how Count Dooku so easily starts the Confederacy in AOTC, because the outer rim planets that join it are planets like Tattoine that are ignored by the Republic and the Jedi, and the spoiled corporations that want even more wealth, like the Trade Federation. The Jedi should have never become part of the corrupt government, which became corrupt when corporations started to join the Senate and become equal in political power to planets.

    That is how the Sith destroy the Old Republic, and the Jedi, by taking advantage of this corrupt system. The Jedi obey the Senate, so they only work within the borders of the Republic. And the Senate is controlled by the corporations, who have been given equal staus as planets and want even more power. When Count Dooku unites the greedy corporations with the ignored planets he creates a great crisis which rips the galaxy apart, and allows Sidious to destroy the corporations, and disable the Senate, all because of the war, sacrificing freedom for security. So all sides, the corporations, the ignored planets, the Senate, and the Jedi, lose.

    And this happened for two reasons, two imbalances of power:
    1.) The Jedi limited freedom and justice to political borders and serving the Senate
    2.) The Senate allowed the greedy desires of powerful corpoartions to stand equal with the needs of the people



    Palpatine only learned the system and its flaws, and took advantage of it with the help of the Dark Side. Do you agree?
  2. DarthNigel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 14, 2003
    star 3
    I agree that entanglement with political power was key to the downfall of the Jedi order.

    But what are the alternatives?

    If you were a non-Jedi, and you knew of the existence of an organized group of individuals with superhuman powers, including the power to influence the minds of ordinary people, wouldn't that be a source of concern for you? Wouldn't you want such an organization to be explicitly subject to a democratically elected government and committed to using its powers only as directed by that government?

    The other options are:

    (1) The Jedi exist as a purely freelance organization, liked by some, distrusted by others, following only their own internal directives and independent of any outside influence. This sounds appealing but it would be an unstable, and unsustainable, scenario.

    (2) The Jedi take power and rule the galaxy themselves. Obviously this is what the Sith want to do, and we can learn the consequences of such a power grab by looking at their history.

    (3) The Jedi can go underground, and attempt to serve the galaxy benevolently as vigilantes. This shares the unsustainability of (1) and also limits their potential effectiveness.


    DG accurately states that it the *corruption* of the political system to which the Jedi wedded themselves that led to their downfall. The sheer longevity of the Republic had blinded the Jedi to the inherent risk of corruption from within.

  3. Jedi_872 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2005
    star 1
    I do agree. However, there were at least two other factors, and probobly more, that allowed Palpatine to take over. One, not only did the Senate not have correct representation of the galaxy, but it hardly anything done. This is what let Palpatine gain emergancy powers: the Senate wasn't doing it's job. The other one, which ties in to your first point, is that the Jedi and the Republic were linked together. If one fell the other did, as well. That's what ends up happening. Because the Jedi fell, the Senate and the people accepted a new rule: the Empire.

    Palpatine may have learned the flaws of the Republic and taken advantage of them, but, although he eliminated the two I talked about, the Empire limited freedom and worked with corporations even more than the Republic did. This is what pushes the people to rebel and the Empire to fall. So if the Republic hadn't fallen when it had, would there have eventually been a rebellion against the Republic?
  4. DARTHIRONCLAD Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2005
    star 3
    How did the Empire work with the corporations even more than the Republic?
    The Trade Federation had a seat in the senate of the Galactic Republic while the Empire eliminated the Trade Federation, the Commerce Guild, the Banking Clan, Techno Union, etcetera.
  5. Winston_Sith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2004
    star 4
    It is my firm belief, that, after Order 66, Palps pwned (both literally; a la Vader, and legally) the Trade Federation, the Commerce Guild, the Banking Clan, Techno Union, etcetera, through an Executive Order.

    Obviously, even in the OT, the Empire controls; or wanst to control, everything to do with Galactic commerce. Leia even asks Lando about the "Mining Guild", which, even though no one says it, is obviously controlled by the Empire; which is why Lando plays down her fears by stating that his operations are "too small to attract attention".
  6. DARTHIRONCLAD Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2005
    star 3
    I forgot about Bespin. The Empire did try and work with Bespin but the Empire did garrison Bespin anyway. So I guess as long as a company or corporation was loyal to the Empire and the Old Republic then the Empire would work with them.

    Sorry I got off topic.
  7. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    But in the Republic the corporations owned the government, in the Empire the government owned the corporations. Both are not good, but it's not the same thing.
  8. sith_rising Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2004
    star 4
    Palpatine would have nationalized all those guys immediately. After dealing with the Trade Federation, Banking Clan and Techno Union behind the scenes for all those years, he knew how corrupt, greedy and treacherous they were. There's no way someone like Palpatine would have put Imperial military production in the hands of privatized companies, concerned only with profit and contracts. It would have been easy with all the Seperatist leaders freshly killed, and I'm sure many Senators, sick of war and betrayal, would support his disintegration of powerful galactic corporations.
  9. DARTHIRONCLAD Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2005
    star 3
    The Empire owned all Trade Federations holdings after The Clone Wars and most Trade Federation assets were absorbed into loyalist companies such as Kuat Drive Yards, Sienar Systems, TaggeCo, and Merr-Sonn. Similar actions were taken on the InterGalactic Banking Clan, the Commerce Guild, the Corporate Alliance, and other CIS signatories.


    As to your original post Darth-Ghost:

    Yes, the Galactic Senate did not care about the common good, however, and I don't mean any disrespect but this has always been how it was even since 1976 when the original Star Wars novel was put on the market.

    As the Republic grew, so too did graft and corruption. Like the greatest of trees, able to withstand attack from the outside, the Republic began to rot from within. Interest in the common good fell to individual agendas. Senators accumulated wealth and influence by exploiting a bureaucracy too bloated and sluggish to stop them. --starwars.com Galactic Republic databank

    The sentence I highlighted is from the original Star Wars novel, and starwars.com incorporated the sentence into the Galactic Republic databank.

    And yes, you're right. The Jedi Order was wrong for associating themselves with such a corrupt entity like the Galactic Senate.

    And yes, you're right. The Republic and Jedi should have helped the people of Tatooine that were being ruled by a gangster named Jabba the Hutt, because The Phantom Menace crawl clearly states that the Jedi Knights are the guardian of peace and justice throughout the galaxy.

    However, the problem I find is most fans do not accept that the Jedi Order was corrupt or fans do not believe Star Wars is that deep or the fans themselves are not capable of understanding. Most fans want to lay the blame on Anakin, but all Anakin did was give the people what they wanted. The people wanted Palpatine, so they got what they wanted, but as the old cliche goes: Be careful what you wish for.

    This is from the Return Of The Jedi novel and it sums up what you're saying:
    .... "Then you must go to the Sanctuary Moon and wait for him," Emperor Palpatine said simply. As long as things were clear, things were clear.
    "He will come to me?" Vader asked skeptically. This was not what he felt. He felt drawn.
    "Of his own free will," the Emperor assured him. It must be of his own free will, else all was lost. A spirit could not be coerced into corruption, it had to be seduced. It had to participate actively. It had to crave.....


    The people of the Republic had to participate actively or Darth Sidious could not have become their Emperor. They had to want him as their Emperor and that they did.

  10. Benethor Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2006
    I agree, it's sort of a good idea, still like that it was something that the Jedi should have seen before if not even Yoda could see it then who?
  11. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    Does anyone think Palaptine or the Sith could have ever come back if both the Jedi and the corporations had stayed separate from the Republic?
  12. Carnage04 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2005
    star 5

    I think it may have been EASIER for the Sith to come back. If the Jedi and the Senate had no official relationship, seeds of mistrust between the two would have been easy to sew. If the corporations would have remained seperate, the Senate would have been a hollow shell with no money and no real power. Funding for the Senate and all of their projects and such came from taxation. The best source of tax money is without a doubt large corporations doing huge amounts of business.

    Think of this in a modern setting. Business becomes independant, acting on their own without being controlled or giving money to the government. They treat employees as well as other companies with no mercy. With no tax money available, the police forces either start doing favors for large corporations instead of protecting the individual. Huge monopolies with police forces in their pockets would run the country. The middle class would give way to a small upper upper class and a large lower lower or mid lower class. Everything would pretty much be a disaster.

    Carnage
  13. DarthJahalus Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2006
    there is also a very key factor in this. i read the book and it states that alot of senators except ones like Bail and Mon Mothma were replaced for Palpatines CHOSEN senators. Thats why the faithful senators were not clapping with the rest of the chamber.
  14. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    The Jedi would have just been a private charity organization with supernatural powers, and would serve the government only when it was the right thing to do, like when avoiding conflict. There could be some mistrust, but I don't see a war starting.

    And as for the corporations being separate from the government, I didn't mean they wouldn't be taxed or controlled. Just that they had no representation in the Senate, which should only be for the planets. It created corruption, and made them an influence on the government so they could get away with things.
  15. Lord_Elrond Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2006
    Because of Anakin's treason against the Jedi in Episode III.
  16. Carnage04 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2005
    star 5
    A private charity organization muddles things even farther. For the Jedi to afford to feed themselves, afford the equipment for lightsabers, tools, etc....they would have basically had to become mercenaries, selling themselves to the highest bidder. Let's say there is a planetary problem where one species is trying to enslave another species. The enslaved start an uprising and call upon the Jedi for help. They have nothing to offer the Jedi in return for their freedom. The other species has been supporting the Jedi financially for years, donating money to them because they are running a quite efficient economy due to the use of slaves. If the Jedi go and force their benefactors to free the slaves, the Jedi lose 10% of their income and thus could only support 90% of the current Jedi they have. They would either have to accept some corruption or watch their coffers dwindle.

    Carnage
  17. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    All Jedi need are food, clothing, shelter, and lightsabers. Not that much money is needed. Put outposts on worlds good for agriculture, have droids built from junkyards make the food, clothing, and shelter. Make trips to Illum for lightsabers. Keep a library, and have a way to communicate. And maybe other governments and organizations will make donations, after trust is earned.


    Three branches of the Jedi. Not 3 different Jedi Orders, but 3 different orders of Jedi.

    1.) Jedi Healers: The charity workers, healers of war, and seek justice for individuals. Not involved at all with politics or war. (HEALING)
    2.) Jedi Knights: Negotiate, and try to prevent war. Fight as warriors when one side is truly in the wrong, but never ally to a specific government. (PEACE)
    3.) Jedi Monks: Meditate and observe the force, to deepen their understanding of it. More into the mystical side of the galaxy, give knowledge to the other branches to be used. Keep the Dark Side away. (WISDOM)

    *Every Jedi listens to the will of the Force above all.
    *Each order has its own council for planning/coordinating, direction, and training/recruitment.
    *The 3 orders are united by a Grand Master, who only acts when needed (to coordinate actions of more than one order or in the case of disagreement between them).
  18. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
  19. Malikail Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2004
    star 4
    I think your scenerio would have worked for a time but eventually the jedi would have probably fallen anyway.

    The problem was the republic was dying, and the jedi were trying to keep it alive.

    All empires reach a point where they aren't expanding anymore, the republic was at that point, after that sooner or later they colapse under their own beurocratic weight.

    The jedi fell because they served the Senate not the people, the only thing that could have saved them was to not fight the clone wars.

    They didn't necessarily have to go private, they could have remained as negotiators and police/investigators, but as generals they were doomed.
  20. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    The Jedi will still be doomed even if they hadn't fought in the Clone Wars because they will be declared as traitors to the Republic thus giving Palpatine an excuse to initiate Order 66 which will kill off the entire Jedi Order.
  21. Malikail Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2004
    star 4
    while i agree with you that Palpantine would have come for them anyway they at least had a chance if they aren't on a battle field with the Clones at their backs!
  22. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    But they will still be hunted down and killed on the spot for refusing to serve the Republic. Everyone in the senate will think that the Jedi are siding with the Seperatists just like Anakin accused Padme of when she said that the Republic has become the very evil they were fighting against. Palpatine will take advantage of that accusation and use it as an excuse to destroy the Jedi.
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