Discussion in 'Literature' started by BaronNoir, Dec 6, 2012.
Your point works far better without invoking a real-life example to me.
That’s basically is the New Mandalorian argument
Are you referring to the book Revan? the same book that took great aim to trash or undercut anything that happened in KOTOR 2?
Also, KOTOR2, where the Mandalorians saved Taris alongside the Exile. Probably my favorite interpretation of the culture.
At the end of the day the Republic is going to win because of it's sheer size and the resources it can throw at them - unless the Jedi hang back because they feel some phantom menace somewhere out there. Again, the Mandalorians are ok with that as long as they get a good fight out of it.
Somehow I don’t think they would actually need the Jedi for it, some coalition of worlds would eventually certainly throw together some kind of conscript army to solve the problem, which is actually what pretty much happens, just happened that Revan was given command of the army. Of course the Mandos of that time will be fine with that just as well, though you always have to wonder what endgame they have for themselves. I mean as far as I recall they don’t believe in anything like heaven where they end up if they have been brave little warriors, but all they somehow seem to be out for is dying in a blaze of glory and getting remembered by their people for it, who are also expected to get themselves killed in the next war.
No said they made a lot of sense. Warrior cultures in general are nuts .... which is why I like them. I think they also lkie to make the rest of the galaxy remember them.
Mandos just seem a little „off“ here, at least if you look at earth “warrior cultures” which are usually forged around Empire building, wealth and/or a certain sense of common good for their own people, some of them promising a glorious afterlife for brave warriors.
I got a laugh from Mandos at Revan novel.
Canderous: We're on enemy territory, they'll attack us soon.
(They attack. They fight. The other group retreats)
Canderous: They won't come back, since we won.
Revan: Why didn't they fight to the last man? You know, to die honorably? And what happens now between your clans?
Canderous: No hard feelings, we'll meet next week with beers and a HD-holodisc of Revan: The Musical.
Revan: You just had a fight where people died, because of a small territory in a world nobody actually wants to be in, and afterwards no hard feelings?
Canderous: Hey, your idea of having fun is to give out sarcastic answers to every question, and you dare to complain?
Well, the Atlas showed they reached Duro, which was also mentioned in KotoR I.
And you mean Telos, not Taris.
KotoR II suffers from involving a small cast of characters and being behind the scenes for the most part, bar the civil war on Onderon and the Battle of Telos. Fundamentally though, Kreia leaves the Jedi Order before/during/after KotoR and becomes Darth Traya. The Exile fundamentally defeats the entity known as Darth Traya to end this group of Sith. It's irrelevant that Kreia never wanted to be Traya, and we can just chalk up the Exile's recovery as being part of her reconnecting with the Force after undoing the wound at Malachor - her own wound, too.
Revan only suffers because everyone expected Revan to be the messiah, despite everyone knowing that he didn't win.
I think that one of the reasons that Karen Traviss' Mandos are so popular was that she made it more personal. It's not about "What are the Mandalorians going to do to the galaxy?". It's about "What is this specific group of Mandalorians going to do in the galaxy they're stuck in?". I know she's really popular among the military/law enforcement crowd, because she had military/law enforcement advisers, and took the viewpoint away from the Jedi/Sith, and gave it to the soldiers.
The Mandalorians (at least, in the Republic Commando/Legacy of the Force novels) aren't about conquest at all. They're about protecting what's theirs, keeping their family safe and fed and raised properly. It's not about Jedi vs Sith, it's about making enough credits (no matter the source) to put food on the table and keep your kids out of harm's way.
Picking regular fights with the rest of the galaxy and getting bombed into submission for it is not exactly any good way to insure any of that and for what armor, weapons and ships must have cost over the years they could have easily turned Mandalore into a thriving Agri-world.
Valid point, but I must respectfully disagree, because the Mandalorians haven't been conquerors for ages. They are mercenaries. They work for the Sith, or whomever, but it's not their war.
Also, in case I come off too "Fandalorian", let me state that I totally am, and I tend to get a little crazy over the Mandos. I apologize in advance if I offend anyone. It's truly not my intention.
Good thing that this philosophy seems to have come into play after the Republic became paranoid enough to nuke a planet into an irradiated hellhole because of an increase in military production. Much as I dislike the pacifist movement becoming the dominant culture for Mandalore, I find it telling that the mere notion of a Mandalorian uprising was still enough to send the Republic into a panic akin to this:
I don't think anybody's offended by people being Fandalorians. You like what you like.
I think what is perplexing to some people is the degree of admiration the Mandalorians get, especially when they're basically these ruthless warriors who worship conflict. Now, you said earlier that it's the military/law enforcement aspect that plays a part of it -- someone might respond to that by asking how that's different from a regular army grunt, or a cop on the beat, but *without* the extra baggage of a genocidal warrior culture.
So it's not that we're offended, it's that we're mystified. And it's not that we don't like you, it's just that we don't like the Mandalorians. Or rather, it's not even that we dislike them per se -- they make good antagonists sometimes -- it's just that we're not pro-Mandalorian.
And of course I say "we" as if I'm speaking for everyone, which I'm not. But the point is -- don't worry about expressing your point of view, and don't worry if people don't agree. We may not like Mandos, but you're a polite fellow so I'm sure we'll like you.
Totally agree with your reasoning. And even if the RC novels, the characters may be removed from the genocidal culture to some extent, but they still go about their admirable goals in rather immoral ways that are extremely difficult to justify.
Most likely referring to the bad old days when the Mandalorians would conduct genocidal campaigns against various alien species, the most recent of which was the Ithullans (200 BBY, according to the NEC).
OMG Traviss foreshadowed peaceful cube city Mandalorians in TCW!!!
Ya know, I was initially afraid (due to some recent bad experiences on a different fandom forum) that my difference in opinion would be instantly jumped on and derided for not agreeing with the general theme of the thread. It's nice to be reminded that one can still stumble upon intelligent and open discussion upon the internet. I believe I shall like you fine people very much.
As far as the Mando's methods go, they are extreme. No argument there. I know that for me personally, my introduction into the world of Mandalorians (and my reintroduction to Star Wars in general) was the Republic Commando series. Kal Skirata and his boys were my window into the wider galaxy, and everything he did was for his children. I won't say that he's not dangerous, violent, deceptive, and occasionally over reactive, but it's all in the name of protecting his family, and making the universe right for them.
I see the world of the Mandalorians through former military eyes, so I tend to identify with the soldiers. I had Sergeants while I was in the Army who fought tooth and nail to make things better for the men and women under their command. In some ways, they did more to make me who I am than my own parents did (though I love both my folks, and am grateful for everything they've done for me). I think that's why I'm such a fan of the Mandalorians. I see them through the Clan Skirata filter, and thus they get an automatic pass on whatever methods they need to use.
Hm...today I discovered I need to read more about the older Mando culture. Thanks for that, guys and gals.
It just seems like an odd way to describe their culture.
You forgot about the Hutts.
No, I didn't. You'll note the words: 'post-Republic founding' in there. Hutt Space was constituted before the Republic came into being as a defined entity (indeed the Republic was largely founded in response to Hutt military aggression). The Hutts changed their policies after getting beaten by the Republic and through a period of intense infighting and abandoned the principles of conquest. Though territories controlled by the Hutts waxed and waned in size over the millenia, they were taken through influence, dealing, and credits, not at blasterpoint.
My mistake. I read too fast. I know that Hutts had their thing going on before the republic.
More appropriately, their culture would be "Join us, get cool armor and crush your enemies, or say hello to our nuclear stockpile, and then if you survive you're stuck with us anyways."
That kind of puzzled me- if as is sometimes claimed, concussion missiles at their peak are "multi-gigaton weapons"- wouldn't the fission warheads make practically no difference besides a bit of extra fallout?
Maybe the claims exaggerate somewhat?