Why should an audience have to

Yeah, I hate the way the quasi-elitist Obi acts like a snob towards the humble Jar Jar.

 

I didn't like that either. He was the same way with Anakin. Thats why I really like Steve's idea. That way, Obi learns and changes a little.

 

<<Perhaps you would like him better if he had been shown as having an IQ of 2, been realized via computer animation, freak out every single time something doesn't go to his liking, and be given a voice that can strip wallpaper, in addition to incredibly irritating dialogue.

It would make his character a lot more "funny", that I am sure of.

Can I ask why people cant accept I dont like Han Solo?? ESB is my favourite movie of all time, but not because of him. There are so many of his scenes I dont like. Its just my opinion ok? I like Jar Jars character, am I wrong to? No, thank you very much, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Jar Jar wouldnt be in my favourite 8 characters from the movies, but I just like him more than Han. Thats all. >>

Slave 2, I apologize if I offended you. I did not mean to force my opinions on anyone, although I may have come off that way. It's just that when people call me whiny and ungrateful because I hate Jar-Jar, and GL was trying to "weed me out", I tend to get defensive and become very insistent on my point of view. Sometimes insisting it to people who don't deserve it. If you like Jar-Jar that's fine. I don't have a problem with it, or with you. I only have a problem when people say I am wrong for hating him, people who had no involvement in the production of the movie at all. But you should be free to like what you like, and I should be free to like what I like. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.

 

Torgo, for what it's worth I tend to feel that some of those who feel that Lucas was specifically trying to "weed out" undesirable fans when he put Jar Jar into TPM just MIGHT have an acceptance issue or two... as if they're looking for some sort of implicit "seal of approval" from Captain Flannel.

I don't get it, and I'm probably misinterpreting, but that's sure what it often seems like to me when I see people talking up this "weeding out" thing.

 

No it is just a thing where some SW fans know hate is a bad thing and something to avoid.

 

-

 

I think you're still having difficulty differentiating between the 'hate' someone can have for a fictional character they don't like, and hate which leads to people killing each other, and the like. There is a subtle difference, you see. And you still haven't explained why it's so wrong to be 'intolerant' of things that are actively obnoxious.

 

In a case like Jar-Jar's he can't help it, and it isn't his fault that he is so "actively" annoying.

You start to empathize with people you would normally shun and love them as a fellow human being in spite of their faults.

It is a similar phenomenon to realizing your poop stinks too.

 

Yeah, but putting Jar Jar aside, would you say it's wrong to be intolerant of people who're loud and intrusive with no consideration for other people (the practicing band I mentioned the other day, for example)?

 

Sure if they mean to be jerks to you, I wouldn't tolerate that either.

I probably wouldn't end up hating them over it.

But this is a film, you don't have to watch it if you don't want to.

 

Go mir. "In a case like Jar-Jar's he can't help it, and it isn't his fault that he is so "actively" annoying."

Well, maybe i am a cruel person, but in my mind, he could have helped it many times. It was at times his choice to be stupid, or maybe it would be better to say if he thought, he would not be. Like in Watoo's shop, he was told not to touch anything. Then what did he do? He made the choice to pick up stuff. If he was smart, he would look where he was walking and not step in the poop. Then there are the times when he is over-dramatic like when he faints in front of Nass, and a part of me says it is his choice not to (try) to control his emotions like that. Then again, I may just be tired and mad that i have too many college projects and tests to do in too short of a time.

 

<<In a case like Jar-Jar's he can't help it, and it isn't his fault that he is so "actively" annoying.

You start to empathize with people you would normally shun and love them as a fellow human being in spite of their faults. >>

He doesn't do anything I find likeable. Sorry. He doesn't possess any positive personality traits in my view. He is also selfish and greedy, and in fact, much of his "annoying behavior" comes about because of this. Oh, and it may intrest you to know that Peter Mayhew, who played Chewbacca, said "I hate, hate that thing (Jar-Jar)." Although he did say that he liked the movie in spite of Jar-Jar. So I guess that, because Peter Mayhew hates Jar-Jar, although not the movie, he is intolerant.

 

Luckily most Star Wars fans are more charitable than Mr. Mayhew.

 

How come no-one ever complains about R2D2 "stepping" in poop?

 

EnforcerSG: "Well, maybe I am a cruel person, but in my mind, he could have helped it many times. It was at times his choice to be stupid, or maybe it would be better to say if he thought, he would not be."

Go-Mer How does one choose to be stupid? Especially when your entire society ignores you the whole time? I mean do you think that he knew something smart to do or say but chose to go with something stupid? Some people are stupid, hell even you and I can be stupid from time to time. Imagine yourself being hated because someone else figures you weren't thinking hard enough, and you start to realize just how cruel it is.

EnforcerSG: "Like in Watoo's shop, he was told not to touch anything. Then what did he do? He made the choice to pick up stuff."

Go-Mer: So, all kids test boundaries they feel aren't worthy. Yoda told you not to hate and you made a choice to hate Jar-Jar anyway, how is that any different?

EnforcerSG: "If he was smart, he would look where he was walking and not step in the poop."

Go-Mer: He was taking in a very new envorionment, so I don't think "stupid" applies here, as much as "tourist".

EnforcerSG: "Then there are the times when he is over-dramatic like when he faints in front of Nass, and a part of me says it is his choice not to (try) to control his emotions like that."

Go-Mer: So now in your opinion, people choose to faint? Do you even realise how silly this "Jar-Jar witch trial" of yours actually is?.

EnforcerSG: "Then again, I may just be tired and mad that I have too many college projects and tests to do in too short of a time."

Go-Mer: And still you choose to judge Jar-Jar anyway? I don't know if I can let that slide.

 

Darth Torgo: "He doesn't do anything I find likeable. Sorry."

Go-Mer: So, you don't do anything I find likable, and I don't hate you.

Darth Torgo: "He doesn't possess any positive personality traits in my view."

Go-Mer: And you think you do?

Darth Torgo: "He is also selfish and greedy, and in fact, much of his "annoying behavior" comes about because of this."

Go-Mer: Again, to me it sounds like you are describing yourself. You are selfish as far as what you expect from Lucas in the prequels, and much of your hatred (which I find very annoying) comes about because of this.

Darth Torgo: "Oh, and it may intrest you to know that Peter Mayhew, who played Chewbacca, said "I hate, hate that thing (Jar-Jar)." Although he did say that he liked the movie in spite of Jar-Jar. So I guess that, because Peter Mayhew hates Jar-Jar, although not the movie, he is intolerant."

Go-Mer: Well, intolerant of Jar-Jar anyway.

 

Go-Mer, unless you wish to be banned, I suggest you stop the characterization of anyone who dislikes Jar Jar as hateful. At best it is borderline flaming.

 

If you get banned for that, then I would stop that immediately if I were you.

 

I can't believe that you are still beating this dead horse, Go-Mer. This is not real intolerance. This is not real hatred. Your efforts to pervert a dislike of JJB denigrates all of the victims of actual hatred and intolerance. How many times must you vomit forth the same ridiculous psychobabble?

EDIT: And on that note, I'm done for the night. I'm off to the hospital to work the overnight shift in the psychiatric ER. There I will encounter people with real psychiatric and psychological problems. I will face addictions. Hallucinations. Homicidal urges. Persecutory delusions. Real hatred and distrust.

And then I will return to these boards in the morning to hear about my "psychological hang-ups" because I don't happen to like an imaginary character in a movie.

Thank you, Dr. Go-Mer. Perhaps I should prescribe JarJar therapy for the next suicidal manic-depressive I encounter. Perhaps I should ask my patients how they feel about JJB, since a negative attitude is obviously indicative of larger psychological problems, and a real metric for determining who meets the standard of "dangerousness" necessary to lock someone away.

Please.

 

"Yoda told you not to hate and you made a choice to hate Jar-Jar anyway, how is that any different?"

Uh, Gome... you do know that this is all just a movie, right? That these aren't real beings talking to you and trying to "teach" you... right?

 

Gomer, Let it be. I dont understand how they conclude with their arguments either, but just say screw it and leave em talkin to themselves

 

Ah, this is the "ignore them" policy you are trying to introduce. Allow me to give you some backstory to the present discussion.

Go-Mer has been espousing a theory for quite some time now that JJB is essentially a litmus test to weed out those audience members who are "intolerant" by nature. It has been proposed in several threads since I came here last June (I first encountered it in the now-defunct "Phantom Edit is Mine!" thread). It has no basis in psychology, psychiatry, or sociology. It relies on fallacious inductive argumentation, poor analogies, and weak defense. He even admitted that he was wrong earlier in this thread.

And now he has brought it up again. I find it especially irksome since I work in behavioral health (clinically in the Psychiatric Department of a hospital in my area, and professionally as the director of compliance programs in a behavioral health software automation company). I have a strong background in this area, and I can say with authority that it is a bad theory. Go-Mer does not have the requisite training to make these kinds of statements, and even in light of evidence and argumentation to the contrary, he persists in fiating its truth.

I see real intolerance on a daily basis. I see real hatred on a daily basis. I see real psychological problems on a daily basis. You see, I make rounds in the behavioral health units, as well as the psychiatric ER. Every time he blithely states that those of us who were less than thrilled with JJB in TPM have psychological hang-ups, that we are intolerant, he denigrates those people who are the victims of people who really do have these problems. Because we dislike JJB, we become conflated with the people who have persecutorial delusions about Jews, people who have racial biases against African-Americans, people who want to inflict pain and suffering on themselves or others because of genuine problems. He's talking out of his ass, he knows it, and he persists.

A lot of what goes on in these boards is really trivial. Flaming makes this place unpleasant, but it really is surface stuff. Opinions will vary on a variety of issues with a variety of arguments and defenses. But what he is doing is inexcusable.

Is that really what you want to align yourself with?

 

Didnt know it was all of that. I shoudlve elaborated (or should I have?) It was merely the last few posts of his:

Date Posted: 3/27 11:18am
3/27 11:27am

Thats some true stuff there. Minus the borderline flaming stuff.

 

You guys are the ones making such a big deal about it. I am talking about hating Jar-Jar. Some of us do. Some of us are proud of that. That's not right. I don't care if it is just a movie. If you want to bury your head in the sand by trying to take my arguments to extreme absurdities, that's your call, but it isn't my fault. Don't act like I am trying to phsychoanalize anyone here.

I am talking about people who say they HATE Jar-Jar. People who think it's "okay" to do so. people who are PROUD to do so.

You know, one of the great things about this saga is it deals with real sociological issues in a "safe" fantasy environment. To not discuss how hate is a bad thing (one of this fine saga's main points I might add), is to work against everything George is trying to do.

I don't care if you don't like TPM, or Jar-Jar, or whatever, I am talking about actual hatred. You guys are the ones confusing simple dislike with hatred. You won't find any of my posts that even suggest they are synonomous.

In fact, every time I try and talk about this important issue, I have to go out of my way to clarify that because you guys swoop in and assume they are the same thing.

It's never too early to learn how bad hate is.

As far as Jar-Jar being a lightning rod for intolerance, I can't imagine anyone not being able to see that. He is like chalk on a blackboard to those who dispise him. He is as many of you would agree, the most hated character ever, and that includes Barney the Dinosaur, and the Purple Telletubbie. To ignore the obvious sociological impact he had on society is to keep society from maturing as a whole.

George said that he is very pesssimistic about society's chances, but he holds onto hope.

I guess I do too.

 

Personally I think ALL teletubbies are equally horrid.