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Why Spider-Man is Better Than Star Wars: Take it for What it is

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by ST-TPM-ASF-TNE, Jun 1, 2002.

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  1. Hatter

    Hatter Jedi Padawan star 4

    Apr 16, 2001
    That's still cringe-worthy. Frankly, ANH would have been many times better if the entire Death Star segment had been replaced with something a bit more interesting. Endless grey corridors aren't that fun to look at for 45 minutes.
  2. Pooja

    Pooja Jedi Knight star 6

    May 25, 2002
    Guys, no more complaints.

    The more we complain, the more we feed the idiots.

    Frankly; Spider-Man wasn't all that and a bag of Tostitos.

    And I really wanted it to be. Heck, I wanted it to be great, like I wanted Episode II to be great. But I was disappointed with SM, and happy with SW.

    And also, let them have thier opinions. If it weren't for opinions, we wouldn't have Star Wars to begin with. If Lucas himself had a different opinion about Star Wars, Spider-Man wouldn't have a movie like Episode II to contend with.

    Let people have thier own opinions,and don't get cocky just because people make these idiot remarks against our opinions.
  3. jed-eye

    jed-eye Jedi Youngling star 2

    Dec 10, 2000
    "In 20 years, few young people will be able to relate to what it was like to live in NYC in 2002. In 20 years, young people will still be able to lose themselves in that GFFA while watching AOTC."

    actually in twenty years i'm hoping all the adrenaline overloading your brains will stop flowing and maybe by then you will all realize how inferior AotC is when it is compared to the OT.
  4. jed-eye

    jed-eye Jedi Youngling star 2

    Dec 10, 2000
    "At least the Star Wars villains have good motivation to do the things that they do."

    are you kidding. the green goblin had agree reason for acting like the way he did. he was crazy. crazy people make the best villains.
  5. Binary_Sunset

    Binary_Sunset Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Oct 28, 2000
    Hatter, I must admit that if SW is a bad movie, then AOTC is a good movie.

    Of course, we all know that SW is the finest film ever made. :)
  6. orangerful

    orangerful Jedi Youngling star 1

    Apr 29, 2002
    I saw Spiderman (though I am convinced that it's box office weekend was only so big because a 70,000 star wars fans were trappped in Indianapolis with nothing else to do after 6pm but go see a movie at the theater across the street hehe).

    I felt that Spiderman lacked in some areas just as AOTC lacked in some. But I do not understand this constant comparing of the two. The (majority) of these reviewers seem to think they are so brilliant that they noticed that 1) both movies have cult followings 2) both feature "love" stories 3) both feature "super hero" male leads.

    To them I send a resounding "DUH!"

    Maybe we should talk about the portrayal of female characters in these movies. What types of role models are being put forth by Mary jane vs. Padme?? Look at the male leads in these 2 films? The "perfect" Peter Parker and the obviously flawed Anakin Skywalker. He's an anti-hero. I dunno, it seems the reviewers are just taking the easy road and ignoring the more intellectual pieces they could be writing on these 2 films.

    And, btw, Willem Dafoe STOLE the spiderman movie. Just like in "shadow of the vampire". :) (go rent that, it's good)

  7. MC3PIO

    MC3PIO Jedi Youngling star 1

    Apr 19, 2000
    In reference to the comment made on the first couple of pages about TPM having little effect on pop culture my question is - just how would you be able to gauge any effect it had? It was the third sequel to a long standing series that's already been firmly established in the public's mind. TPM didn't establish any bold new concepts. It just continued along with elements we're already familiar with - the Force, lightsabers, etc.. It's the same thing with AOTC. Of course you could see the impact The Matrix had easily. It was an original film. It wasn't following along in the style set by previous films that had already proven popular.

    I'm very interested in the Matrix Reloaded, though. It will either confirm or repudiate what I had always believed about the first film - that there was very little story there and that the movie largely coasted on slick visuals and the novelty of the bullet time fx. Well, that novelty has worn off now so we'll see how this new film is received next year.
  8. Darth-sennin

    Darth-sennin Jedi Youngling star 3

    May 24, 2001
    Someone mentioned earlier that the Matrix will be remebered and still appreciated in 20 years. That to me is rediculous. You can argue that it is a good film, or has revelutionary effects(which it doesn't) if you want, but to say it will be a classic is nonsense.

    The Matrix is one of the most popish movies ever made. You could argue that the original SW became deeply rooted in pop culture also however, the only thing in SW that can clue you into the time period are the dated special effects and the mutten chop side burns. The Matrix on the other hand totally embraces everything that was "cool" in 1999. That means it won't mean squat to kids in 2025. The music, the leather, and the ultra slick kung-fu coolness of it are all just fads. The Matrix is the flavor of the month, in twenty years it will look as silly as the original star trek series(without the merit of good story telling).

    Star Wars on the other hand is something that can be viewed on the same level by many generations. As I said earlier, the only clue to time periods in SW movies are the state of special effects. It takes place a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away and that makes it modern myth. Timeless.
  9. Padme Bra

    Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jul 2, 1999
    "are you kidding. the green goblin had agree reason for acting like the way he did. he was crazy. crazy people make the best villains."

    LOL. 'He's crazy'. Brilliant characterization. :p

    Take away the FX in both films, I don't care. AOTC is a compelling story. Spiderman is just another comic book story. The exact same plot, just different powers and a different costume.
  10. kampilan

    kampilan Jedi Padawan star 4

    May 18, 2002
    I was 6 when the original 1977 Star Wars came out so don't even call me a basher! I begged,screamed, and cried for the toys and trading cards all my life. My Dad took me to see it and regrets doing so to this day. My Mom only understands the eye-candy value of the SW films but she enjoys the Jedi concepts. I took my parents to see TPM and they did not like it much. They went and enjoyed AOTC better. The critics were right:more action than TPM but same (yawn)story. Sure, I thought Yoda stole the spotlight because he spoke more and looked awesome in full CGI. I couldn't get enough of the badass Clonetroopers. They make the Stormtroopers seem like chumps the same way Special Forces make "regular" Army Rangers look like poodoo! Jango was great but too bad he didn't aim lower. Some Commando he is. It was OK to see more Jedi but it didn't feel like Braveheart. Yoda with the Bear Clan trainees was a sure classic as was the Slave-1 vs Jedi Starfighter. "Across the Stars" is now my fave theme next to "Yoda's Theme". That's about it.
    Spider-Man for me was the complete package. It had the emotional power AOTC lacked. The Shmi/Anakin reunion was close enough. I guess SM was a more personal film. The CGI wasn't ILM level but kudos to the SM New York work. Lucas did say that CGI is just another TOOL to help create a visual effect just like a painter uses paint. If I had to wait in line to see either film like those fools in Seattle or LA, SM would've been worth all the hassle. I've always enjoyed stories where you can overcome struggle and adversity right along with the characters: Biblical Joseph, Prince of Egypt, Ben-Hur,Karate Kid, Knight's Tale, Forrest Gump, Rocky, Rambo, Mad Max films, etc. In AOTC I'd root for Boba Fett, but overall R2-D2 is who I think is the most daring and heroic SW character of all.
    AOTC was an old-school comic book/cliffhanger movie and Spider-Man was a movie based on a comic book.
    Final Verdict: Spider-Man is a great date movie and AOTC isn't. "With great power..." Anakin sure wasn't a responsible dude: he keeps losing his lightsaber and puberty is turning him to the DarkSide!
  11. hotanguish

    hotanguish Jedi Master star 1

    May 24, 2002
    [blockquote]((At least the Star Wars villains have good motivation to do the things that they do.))

    And what was Dooku's motivation again? Why did he leave the order? Why did he join with Palpatine? Hmmmmmmmm?

    The same goes for Maul. Who was he, what was he, where did he come get the idea.

    Tell me that, and your statement gets credence. And as we all know, novels don't count. [/blockquote]

    All right. Let's start by actually thinking about the characters in question and their roles in the film.

    What do we know about Dooku from the film?
    [ol][li]First of all, he is a highly esteemed former Jedi whose abilities are certainly on par with the greatest Jedi council members (Mace Windu and Yoda). We can gather this from Mace's defense of him to Padme at the beginning of the film, the statue of his head in the Jedi library which obviously indicates that he is an honored Jedi, his addressing Mace Windu as "old friend" which makes him sound on equal and familiar terms with Mace Windu rather than a lesser Jedi, not to mention his fight with Yoda.[/li][li]He trained Qui-Gon Jinn and was a political idealist.[/li][li]He discusses the Senate's corruption with Obi-wan.[/li][li]He seems genuinely saddened by the death of Qui-Gon Jinn.[/li][li]Finally, he is a master swordsman with a zeal for elegance and appears to appreciate honor and proper form as we can see in his lightsaber duels and his praise of the valor of the Jedi during the finale.[/li][/ol]Thus, we can deduce a certain arrogance, confidence, and pursuit of excellence in his character; he is almost certainly an elitist. From all of this information we can easily answer your questions.

    Dooku's motivation is excellence and proper government for the Republic. He is a nobleman whose tolerance for the corruption and inefficiency in the Republic's government has run its course. As an arrogant pursuer of excellence, he is probably angered by the Jedi Council's submission to the corrupt and inferior Senate. As an arrogant political idealist, he probably is convinced that the ends justify the means and so does not flinch at doing morally questionable things to bring about his goals. Further, as an arrogant elitist who is confident in himself, he probably assumed that he was capable of using the Dark Side to take advantage of the true capabilities of the Force as a whole and that it would not corrupt him. Thus, he was probably fairly easily seduced by Darth Sidious. I suspect that just as Sidious is using him, he is using Sidious and does not intend to serve his Master to the end.

    So why did he leave the order? Because Qui-Gon Jinn's death sealed his conclusion that the Jedi Order has become a self-smothering ineffective arm of the corrupt and inefficient Senate that he despises. Why did he join Darth Sidious? (We must say Sidious instead of Palpatine because in all fairness the two may not be the same and because Dooku may not know that the two are the same if they are) Probably because Sidious tempted him with the allure of more power through the Dark Side and the promise of destroying the ineffective Senate to replace it with a more effective government. Further, he probably intends to learn what he can from Sidious and then betray him. He also may be plotting to kill Sidious in revenge for Qui-Gon's death at the hands of Darth Maul.

    Further more, if you read the novelization and original screenplay, you can see even more indications that the above analysis is dead on.

    Now, let's tackle Darth Maul. Not much to say here. What do we know about him from TPM? He hates the Jedi and wants revenge. What does he do? Serves his master who wishes to destroy the Jedi, kills a Jedi, and dies trying to kill another one. Seems like he acted according to his presented motivation. Do we need to know why he hates the Jedi? Nope. Especially considering that he has such a small role in the film. Can we think of plausible reasons why he might hate them? Sure, not the least of which could be simple allegiance to the Sith Order.

    [blockquote]The Green Goblin's
  12. DarthBrodie70

    DarthBrodie70 Jedi Youngling

    Jun 1, 2002
    I think everyone is jealous of Lucas for one simple reason. He puts his money where is mouth is. Even if I hated these films, I would still have to respect him for using his own money to make his films. Only Indie directors like John Sayles do that these days. I respect him for that reason alone and Hollywood hates him for that as does the press. You don't see Spielberg putting up his own money for his films, but I do like him. I liked Spider-Man a lot, but I have no real desire to see it again. Star Wars is magical like very few movies these days. Only LOTR and The Matrix can compare to it.
  13. JBFett

    JBFett Jedi Padawan star 4

    Feb 15, 2002
    only LOTR and the Matrix can compare to it

    I would agree if I had liked LOTR....but I dont think the matrix is as epic as star wars seems more like a collection of fight scenes with a story pieced from classic sci fi around them.

    LOTR is epic though...just not a story I care for.
  14. Jar Jar

    Jar Jar Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jul 13, 1998
    Also, don't forget the fact that many of the action sequences in the Matrix were taken almost directly from anime movies and series. Even one of the creators of the Matrix admitted he had "borrowed" these scenes from anime he had seen. I spotted sequences from the works of Katsuhiro Otomo and Hirohiko Araki mostly, but there are other universal anime action cliches throughout the film that got me too.

    Having watched a lot of anime in my life, I yawned through the action of the matrix and looked straight to the story and found it lacking. While some scenes had some memorable dialougue it was hardly original turf being tread upon. It's a fun movie, but not one I will likely see again.

    There's something different about Star Wars though. It's something that I love but I can't put my finger on what it is. Others try to explain it as tapping into the power of myth, but that's not totally it I think. Whatever it is, it seperates it from being just a film and makes it a part of my life. Whatever it is what makes these movies live on after others are distant memories or forgotten all together.
  15. Not_Applicable

    Not_Applicable Jedi Padawan star 4

    Feb 15, 2002
    That's funny. I've never seen the Matrix, but there's a Matrix CG-animated series in the works for Japanese television right now.
  16. Dark_Force

    Dark_Force Jedi Youngling star 1

    May 22, 2002
    Spider-man IS NOT better than ATOC, or any Star Wars film for that matter.

    I have seen SM once, AOTC 9 times

    People who say that SM is better, just are to dumb, and should not be allowed to see Ep III.

    SM was good, better than Batman, but it does not capture the heart or imagination.

    nuff said
  17. JarJarIsBoba

    JarJarIsBoba Jedi Padawan star 4

    Sep 24, 2000
    I dont hear anyone bashing Batman for not being faithful to its comic roots. Whys that? Spider-Man was sure as hell closer to the comic than Batman.

    I think very few people actually read the original Detective Comics. Most have read The Dark Knight Returns. And Batman is pretty faithful to that.

    And, yes, Spider-Man is much closer than any other comic book movie...ever.

    I liked Spider-Man, but the L.A. Times is just too overboard on the gush. Bullet time in Spider-Man didn't do anything for me. At least it better used in Spidey than in the Matrix. And I don't see Spider-Man as a love story. It's an infatuation story. MJ doesn't deserve Peter...ever.
  18. Fat_Fett

    Fat_Fett Jedi Padawan star 4

    Dec 24, 2001
    Looks like abmccray got the crap kicked out of his spiderman-fanboy theories by Anguish.

    And PadmeBra is totally correct.
  19. bed_speling

    bed_speling Jedi Youngling star 1

    Jan 9, 2002

    Spider-Man's feature was its narrative simplicity. The story basically charted an innocent boy's transmutation into a superhero.

    To its credit the story never wavered off-course. But for a story so simple it'll be difficult to go off-course.

    And that's the reason why I got quite bored with Spider-Man. I must have looked at my watch 3-4 times during my viewing.

    The scene where the Green Goblin talked a lot looked ridiculous to me. Dafoe's voice was going through a variety of expressive tones, and hearing Dafoe's dialogue issuing from the unmoving green plastic mouth spastically locked in permanent laughter was uncomfortable for me.

    I felt that AOTC's scope was far more ambitious compared to that of Spider-Man's. And with a greater scope comes more room for mistakes. Sure, I think there were mis-steps in AOTC, but I'm more impressed by what AOTC attempts than by what Spider-Man achieves.
  20. YodaMaster

    YodaMaster Jedi Youngling

    May 17, 2002
    Is this thread still going? While Star Wars/Spider-Man/Batman/Superman/Matrix/LOTR/Star Trek/Austin Powers/James Bond/X-Files/X-Men/Men in Black/Monty Python/Scooby-Doo/Indiana Jones/(Name franchise here) fans tear each other to shreds, the Tom Clancy fanbase emerges from the shadows and moves in for the kill...What do I mean? The Sum of All Fears knocked Clones off #1 for Friday and looks to carry through for the weekend. I have to admit, I wasn't expecting this film to knock Clones off the top at all. I would have guessed Minority Report or MIB2. But anyway, let's start making some comparisons between SOAF and AOTC because they're pretty much the same film right? :D
  21. Jawa70

    Jawa70 Jedi Youngling star 1

    May 18, 2002
    off the top of my head, two pop culture references to TPM- Cordelia in 'Angel' has a ghost in her apartment called 'phantom Dennis', comic book guy in the simpsons in bed with a Jar Jar figure "everyone hates you, except me!".That's two, straight off the bat.
  22. kampilan

    kampilan Jedi Padawan star 4

    May 18, 2002
    I thought The Rocketeer and the first Ninja Turtles movie were pretty close to their original source.
    I've seen AOTC 4 times and SM only twice but I had more fun with Spidey.
    I'll always remember my 1977 SW movie experience just like all you young pups who remember their first VHS or Special Edition experience. Ha, that's a laugh!
    LOTR was better than the *yawn* Bakshi cartoon, AOTC was okay, SM was better but Blackhawk Down is still the best movie I've seen so far...Hoo-wa!
  23. Jedi Vince

    Jedi Vince Jedi Youngling star 3

    Aug 2, 1999
    First of all, I think it's pathetic for a paper like the L.A Times to pay one of its staff members to write such a meaningless feature.
    To understand how bad the Times article is, read the piece first -- that's one of the first essays/features I've read from a writer who GETS Star Wars.
    Why do editors from these high-profile publications go out of their way to degrade Star Wars? That Entertainment Weekly piece where the girl who has never seen a Star Wars was sent to cover AOTC was amazing -- it not only made the writer look like a complete moron, but also the magazine. EW takes every chance it gets to blast Star Wars, but puts it on its cover whenever possible -- what a rag!
    This is getting out of hand! It's driven me to a point where I'm not reading any hack critic's assessment of Star Wars ever again.
    I've studied Fellini, Ford, Kurosawa, Kubrick, Wilder, Scorsese, Coppola, and all the other great directors -- so I know film, and I can offer a much more in-depth criticism about Spider-Man, but all I'm prepared to say is that it sucked...period.

    Long live Star Wars!
  24. sdj

    sdj Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jan 3, 2002
    The countless parodies of TPM are enough to make it part of pop culture. Like it or not. The only other recent movie that compares is Austin Powers. Like it or not that will be around for a long time.
  25. johnglen

    johnglen Jedi Youngling star 1

    May 30, 2002
    Most of you make one mistake:You compare how will SM be remembered in 20 years as opposed to AOTC.First of all i'm not so sure that the entire new trilogy will be remembered after 20 years.Most of the people that raved about TPM allready despise that so one of the movies of the new trilogy is allready out.Only a few people(if any) consider TPM to be a classic.I believe that only the original trilogy will be considered as a classic in the years to come.But the obvious flaw is that spider man is not a movie franchise it is a comic book
    franchise.Spider man doesn't need its movie to be remembered as classic,to continue being popular.The comic titles will ensure that.The fact that the movie is a huge success is just a nice bonus to the spider man legacy nothing more.Star Wars on the other hand is a movie franchise so it has to be remembered...cause of its movies.
    Anyway Batman is still hailed as a classic,evil dead(another Raimi movie)is hailed as a classic and i somehow feel that spider man will also be remembered as a classic espesially if Raimi directs the sequels.(most of you might hate him but he has many many fans just like Peter Jackson.Those 2 share a lot in common that most of you wouldn't understand i guess)
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