Why Spider-Man is Better Than Star Wars: Take it for What it is

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by ST-TPM-ASF-TNE, Jun 1, 2002.

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  1. abmccray Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 2
    ((Now this is just so incredibly STUPID!!! If she knew her Spider-Man lore, like I do, she would know that Peter Parker wrestling for money is, in fact, part of comic book history. He did wrestle for money, let a crook run past, and that man killed his uncle. It is NO WAY in HELL a nod to Mad Max...she's an idiot in more ways than one. ))

    If you knew Spider-Man lore, like I do, you would know that Spider-Man did not fight Bonesaw in a steel cage with an overly rowdy crowd around him. That is all.
  2. abmccray Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 2
    ((No, it's not a fact. It's an opinion. And in my opinion, AOTC is better directed, acted, and edited ))

    I'd like for you to try to explain why you feel that way. Very few people that are educated in acting, directing, and editing would say that - and the people that do are probably associated with Lucas in some way :)

    Seriosly, an opinion only means something if it's validated by some sort of factual basis - the difference between an educated opinion and one that is not. And no, the opinion above yours is no more valid than your own. I've explained in detail the editing/writing etc. problems. I'd be interested in seeing how someone tries to explain how AOTC has exceptional editing/acting/ etc.
  3. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    I don't care how valid my opinion is. I know how I feel about AOTC in those areas. Did I ever insinuate my opinion was more valid than his?




    ST
  4. Xenomaniac Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 2
    abmccray,

    ((Nowhere in the movie does it say he's a political idealist. The movie shows that he's serving Sidious - playing both sides agaisnt the other. From that, you can assume that he cares nothing about politics, except for serving his master. Serving his master is an even weaker motivation than "being crazy."))

    I've just been reading this post for a while now, but abmccray, did you even watch the movie???

    Nowhere does it say he is a political idealist??? Well um...correct me if I am wrong here but does this line sound familiar at all?:

    "He is a political idealist, not a murderer"- Ki-Adi-Mundi, Attack of the Clones

    Now I dont know if I am just interpreting the line wrong or something, but I think it is here that it says Count Dooku is a political idealist....
  5. Twink_Kee Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2001
    star 5
    Opinion is opinion, and fact is fact. There is no muddying the two. There is a clear line that exists between the two, especially in the world of art.

    Education of art is still based upon opinion, as there is no factual way to judge art in the first place, so no opinion on art is more valid than another's.

    There are very few areas in which opinion even approaches coming close to fact. In it is in these areas where opinion is based upon an absolute, hardcore, concrete fact.

    For example, the opinion that "Titanic was a financial success" is a more valid opinion than any opinion on the quality of the film. It is still an opinion, and not a fact, but it is an opinion based upon fact and thus closer to fact. Why? Because it is the highest grossing movie of all time. Yet, it is even still a debateable opinon because other factors can be brought in besides profit, such as money spent to make the film.

    Bottom line is you can't say one opinion on art is more valid than another, because even an educated artistic opinion is based upon another flawed human opinion down the line.

    If you think otherwise, I feel pretty damn sorry for you because you're going to go through life being ignorant when you base facts upon opinions (and especially when those opinions are based upon opinions).
  6. abmccray Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 2
    My mistake - I forgot about that line (excuse me for not memorizing the entire script, like some of you seem to have done o_O).

    So being an idealist makes him wish to give Palpatine supreme power.
  7. abmccray Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 2
    ((Bottom line is you can't say one opinion on art is more valid than another, because even an educated artistic opinion is based upon another flawed human opinion down the line.

    If you think otherwise, I feel pretty damn sorry for you because you're going to go through life being ignorant when you base facts upon opinions (and especially when those opinions are based upon opinions). ))

    Er, the term "educated opinion" exists for a reason buddy. An educated opinion has more backing, and is thus more valid than one who pulls their opinion straight out of their ass.

    If you go through life weighing an opinion based on nothing as more or the same as an opinion based on a factual basis, I feel damn sorry for you because you're going to go through life being ignorant of an understanding of the depth of quality of art.

    Or to illustrate, my 4 year old cousin's opinion on how well Seven Samurai is directed is as valid as Steven Spielberg's. Oooookay.
  8. Twink_Kee Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2001
    star 5
    "Er, the term "educated opinion" exists for a reason buddy. An educated opinion has more backing, and is thus more valid than one who pulls their opinion straight out of their ass."


    Yeah, but the kind of opinion you're referring to is not a truly educated opinion. True education is based on fact, not on the opinion of others. It is classified as "educated" in word only, because unfortunately it has become a part of our "education" system. It is still a falsity, and is flawed.

    "Or to illustrate, my 4 year old cousin's opinion on how well Seven Samurai is directed is as valid as Steven Spielberg's. Oooookay."


    Actually, if you want to get down to the nitty-gritty, it is as valid. Because all that matters when enjoying a film is what that little boy thinks, not what your or Steven Spielberg thinks.
  9. JediAreJustHippies Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 11, 2001
    star 1
    I'm just curious - do any of you freakshows think that it's possible to love both SM *and* AOTC?

    I thought they were both great; and there were some things that each did better than the other.

    Some people go on & on about how the critics or the media are out to get Star Wars and are gushing for Spidey. The problem is that those very people are becoming, essentially, Spidey-bashers. If you liked AOTC but hated SM, you've got some sort of personal issue about wanting to exalt SW above all else and, since SM is nearly as popular as AOTC, you're projecting your issue onto it & it's fans.
  10. dahveed72 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 3
    It is a FACT that Twink_kee has WAY too much time on his hands. It is ALSO a fact that he has that same "flair" for stating the obvious in the most tedious, longwinded fashion as his fellow gushers. It is also a fact that anyone who thinks AOTC is the second coming of ESB is, well, "special".

    I M H F O, that is.

  11. DarKnight Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2000
    star 2
    If Lucas were to place as much effort into writing a strong script which in turn would elevate the story and characterization as he does on the perfection of his FX, we would not be having this discussion.

    Spider-man provides action, some romance, and strong story and characterization (ie Willem Dafoe's schizophrenic mirror soliloqey is top notch). There is nothing in AOTC that can match the performance that Defoe gives. Granted, if Lucas had had more of Dooku in it I am sure we would have, but unfortunately, that is not the case.

    AOTC was good. It was good for a Star Wars film. However, when compared to the quality of the current crop of films (ie Spider-man, Sum of All Fears, Fellowship of the Rings, and Matrix) Lucas is not raising the bar of standards as he once did. As a matter of fact he isn't even clearing the bar.

  12. dahveed72 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 3
    quote:

    True education is based on fact, not on the opinion of others.

    To paraphrase the great Samuel Clements (Mark Twain, to u gushers): It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and REMOVE ALL DOUBT!!

    Or, failing that, you could just spend all your time hanging out with people who think exactly the same thing you do.

    Oh, wait, uh nevermind...


    ps Well said DarkKnight!! These points should be perfectly obvious to anyone who loves film, as obvious as most of the gusher points on this board, but theyre not. go figure.

  13. JediAreJustHippies Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 11, 2001
    star 1
    I agree - I think we can all still love SW while recognizing that it's not the be-all, end-all greatest movie of all time in every regard.
  14. dahveed72 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 3
    Pretty funny sig there JediAAH, but if it werent for Lucas Ewan couldve held his own against Guinness for a few rounds at least.
  15. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    dahveed72, your comment about Twink_Kee can be considered flaming. You better watch yourself.


    And I like Spider-Man and AOTC, I just feel AOTC is a better film.




    ST
  16. lucoplakia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 1
    Holy flame war, Batman! Er... I mean, Spiderman. Anakin? Neo? HAL 2000? Anybody?? Eh....

    Well I've never read an entire thread that spanned 10+ pages before, but I couldn't stop reading this one until I reached the end. The hypocricy here is profound man... so much so that I couldn't pry my eyes away from it long enough to refill my coffee mug.

    Many of the means of criticism used to judge ATOC, whether by run-of-the-mill filmgoers, fans, or published critics, which many of you decry as flippant, oversimplified, nitpicky, obtuse, pseudointellectual (my favorite), logically flawed, or outright hateful are the same critical means of choice which that same "many" uses to brush other other films in favor of ATOC such as Spider-Man, Batman, 2001: A Space Odyssey,The Matrix, etc. CURIOUS! as Obi-Wan might put it.

    I was surprised to read Padme-Bra's outright dismissal of those who consider 2001:A Space Odyssey a sci-fi masterpiece as pseudointellectual or impaired by euphorics and hallucinogens. That's an ad hominem appeal if I've ever heard one, using presumtuous name-calling to butress your argument against the burning arrows of reason. Sure, these are all opinions, but bad ones in my estimation. Some posts here are well considered, but not many. Star Wars rules! Spider-Man stinks! The Matrix is a Gap commercial! Ho-hum.

    No onto something infinitely more deliberative and thought-provoking like... ooh! What clonetroopers eat for breakfast! That looks good. Excuse me.
  17. JediAreJustHippies Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 11, 2001
    star 1
    >>>dahveed72, your comment about Twink_Kee can be considered flaming. You better watch yourself.<<<

    I didn't know you were a mod, congratulations on your promotion!
  18. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    I'm not. But GriffZ has already banned two people today. He's lurking in the shadows. Flaming can get somebody banned. I was just offering some helpful advice ;)



    ST
  19. dahveed72 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 3
    Sorry for that. In fact i think we should all thank Twin_Kee for perfectly illustrating the difference between an EDUCATED opinion and HIS opinion. thanks

    Oh, and as far as banning, ive already instructed the mods to ban me, rather than send me a tedious warning (i suffer from eyestrain).

  20. TheVioletBurns Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2002
    star 4
    lucoplakia: hahaha. Great post. :D

    Also, I agree with the sentiment that too many people act like Star Wars is Citizen Kane or something. C'mon. That's not why we love it.

    TVB.
  21. Twink_Kee Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2001
    star 5
    dahveed, you said nothing to retort my argument. All you did was make a general "insult" that was not even based upon anything, much less fact. You didn't even provide any basis for your opinon.

    Until you reach the point where you can decipher the difference between fact and opinion, you're stance still holds no water. This doesn't pertain to just Star Wars or Spider-Man, but any kind of art in general. I can equally defend Spider-Man based on the same argument I'm presenting.

    Regardless of the case, I still cannot say unequivocally that it is a fact one is better than the other. You can give your opinion from your own personal viewpoint, because there are no facts to base this on.
  22. dahveed72 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 3
    Citizen Kane? (hah) TPM was no "Weekend at Bernies" either!! And 2/3rds of AOTC wasnt much better.

    Please stop bringing up this exagerated, non-existent argument. Most Bashers, and others, merely hoped for something COMPARABLE (in quality, not necessarily in tone, scope, etc..)to the OT. I myself wouldve been satisfied with a movie on a par with ROTJ (the worst of the 3 by far, but i did enjoy it). It wasnt. not even close.

    Enough with this stupid Citizen Kane crap. Most of the gushers youre speaking to havent even SEEN Citizen Kane (and even fewer understood it).
  23. GriffZ Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2001
    star 6
    Let's watch it with the insults, please. I'd hate to have to close this brilliant thread because of a few bad apples. [face_plain]


    :p

  24. TheVioletBurns Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2002
    star 4
    Um...

    I was being figurative. The films aren't perfect, is my point, and my point was, we love them in spite of their many imperfections.

    ...Geesh. Calm down.

    TVB.
  25. dahveed72 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 3
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