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Lit Why Starkiller fits into the EU *essay*

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Charlemagne19, Sep 23, 2013.

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  1. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Why Starkiller fits into the Expanded Universe

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    Starkiller a.k.a Galen Marek is one of the most controversial figures of the Star Wars Expanded Universe. Introduced in The Force Unleashed multimedia event, he proved extremely popular but numerous objections were raised to his inclusion in the canon due to the massive changes he was perceived as making.

    As a fan of both Galen Marek and the greater Expanded Universe, I’d like to take a moment to discuss some of the more common controversies surrounding Starkiller and why I don’t think they’re as troublesome as some people are making them out to be. Take note this is all my opinion and while I will attempt to back up my claims with evidence from the greater Star Wars universe, whether or not he “fits” is largely a matter of opinion.

    I hope you enjoy.

    Controversy 1#: Starkiller as Darth Vader's Apprentice breaks the Rule of Two.
    Some individuals are upset about the fact Starkiller is Darth Vader's apprentice. According to the Rule of Two, there's no way that Darth Vader should be training another Sith while Darth Sidious is still alive. This is despite the fact that Darth Vader and Sidious discuss training Luke Skywalker in the Empire Strikes Back. One could make an argument both Sidious and Vader knew one of them would die in order to make room for the Son of Skywalker, but that’s stretching things.

    Anyway, the SWEU has already given Darth Vader a large number of apprentices. The most prominent of these is Shira Brie a.k.a Lumiya the Dark Lady of the Sith. First introduced in Marvel comics' Star Wars 65#, she was retconned into being Carnor Jax's Sith Master and the holder of Sith Lord King Adas' holocron. Eventually, she corrupted Jacen Solo to the Dark Side of the Force and was killed by Luke Skywalker on Terephon.

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    Lumiya wasn't the only apprentice of Darth Vader, either. In Star Wars Annual 3#, we discover a young Belderone human named Flint. An idealistic young man, Flint's mother was killed and he decided to become important. Flint was discovered by Darth Vader cradling his mother's body, the victim of a terrible accident. Lord Vader made the uncharacteristic decision to take Flint under his wing and teach him the ways of the Force.

    Ultimately, Luke Skywalker redeemed Flint from the Dark Side and he was retconned as dying at the hands of Lumiya. Notably, Flint was important enough to warrant a visit to Luke by all three Endor Force Ghosts (Anakin, Yoda, and Ben Kenobi). He also wore armor similar to Darth Vader's own.

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    The list of Darth Vader's apprentices doesn't end there. The Procurator of Justice, Hethrir, was taught the secrets of the Dark Side of the Force by Darth Vader. Joining him was Hethrir's mate, Rillao, who resisted the lure of the Dark Side and became a Jedi Healer. The fact Darth Vader didn't kill her raises many questions. Did he believe he could corrupt her given enough time or did he want to punish her for his betrayal? The Crystal Star, which introduced both, doesn’t address the issue.

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    The list is capped off by Star Wars adventure module, Planet of the Mists, which introduces Vost Tyne. A former Imperial Admiral, he had a close friendship with Darth Vader, and instead of getting force-choked like Admiral Ozzel--ended up getting tutored in the ways of the Dark Side. Vost Tyne is notable for the fact he was allowed to resign his commission in the empire and retire to heading up a secret Imperial hyperbaride synthesis plant.

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    Having established the Dark Lord is no stranger to educating apprentices, Starkiller fits in neatly to the canon as the first of many. Having failed with Starkiller, it makes sense Darth Vader would educate more darksiders to replace him. It also speaks well to the Dark Lord he began plotting against his master almost immediately after rising to power in Revenge of the Sith.

    But really, is Starkiller a Sith? That is questionable. Darth Bane said that was possible to educate individuals in the Force without making them true Sith or violating the Rule of the Two. Starkiller thinks Lord Vader is educating him for the purpose of overthrowing Palpatine but is he right? Starkiller never receives the title of Darth and his only confirmed Sith abilities are Force Lightning and training in their style of Shien.

    On Corellia, Darth Vader says to Starkiller he intends to overthrow the Emperor but "not with you." Is it possible Starkiller is not Darth Vader's Shadow Hand? That he is merely muscle the Dark Lord is teaching the ways of the Force to make his position more convenient?

    This is a question not answered by The Force Unleashed. There's evidence either way and it's possible Starkiller is merely a Dark Jedi or False Apprentice like Darth Maul is described as in the Darth Plagueis novel.

    Even if Starkiller is a fully-educated Sith Lord, is this so bad? There's no indication Darth Maul was taught less than any other Sith other than Darth Sidious' reassurances to Darth Plagueis. Darth Maul certainly displays all the manipulation and intelligence expected of a Sith Lord in The Clone Wars.

    Yet, Darth Maul was trained by Sidious while Plagueis was still alive and died only shortly thereafter. We also know Darth Tenebrous violated the Rule of Two by training Darth Veramis to replace Plagueis. Would Darth Vader be any less treacherous? Darth Sidious reacts to Starkiller's presence by forcing Vader to kill him. He reacted similarly to Dooku's training Ventress in the Sith arts. In short, it seems likely Palpatine was quite outraged at the violation of the Rule of Two—which is an appropriate response.

    Controversy 2#: Starkiller's Force Powers are too strong

    One of the major complaints about Starkiller is his over-the-top Force abilities. People have said he's more powerful than Luke Skywalker, Darth Vader, and Obi Wan Kenobi. They claim Starkiller diminishes the role of Luke Skywalker and makes it questionable why Yoda considered the latter to be the Jedi's last hope.

    Given Starkiller can defeat Luke Skywalker, Obi Wan Kenobi, and a fully-trained Jedi Leia in the non-canon The Force Unleashed DLC and lays low Darth Vader twice in the canon campaign, there is some degree of merit to this argument.

    Yet, I disagree.

    First, I'm not sure Starkillers' powers are as impressive as people maintain. Starkiller possesses the following abilities: Force Lightning, telekinesis, Force Push, the Jedi Mind-Trick, and the power to release a telekinetic burst of power in all directions. He is also trained in "Sith Shien" and, later, Jar'kai double-lightsaber combat. These are all abilities displayed by the Jedi Knights and Sith in the movies.

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    Starkiller mows through hundreds of Stormtroopers during The Force Unleashed and The Force Unleashed 2 but we see similar feats against droids during the Prequels. During the opening sequence of The Phantom Menace, Obi Wan Kenobi and Qui Gon Jinn easily tear through almost a dozen B-1 battle droids. While Stormtroopers are superior to battle droids, the difference isn't so much that were the Star Wars movies rated R instead of PG, we might not see our heroes slaying them in equal numbers.

    Starkiller manages to defeat AT-STs in hand-to-hand combat as well as Rancors but the latter feat is replicated by Luke Skywalker in Return of the Jedi. We never see Starkiller fight an AT-AT and his defeat of the Gorog, a beast which defeats Rancors for breakfast, is done by dropping the repulsor arena they're located on down for literally miles. All of Starkiller's force powers are ineffective against it and he can't defeat the monster without trickery.

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    We've seen the Jedi and Sith both display incredible physical feats both in the Prequels as well as the Expanded Universe. Star Wars: Clone Wars, in particular, depicts the Jedi Knighthood displaying physical and Force-based feats far superior to Starkiller's own. Mace Windu, in particular, defeats an entire droid army during the Battle of Dantooine.

    Knights of the Old Republic, one of the better-regarded video games in the Star Wars canon, has Darth Revan and two compatriots assault the Star Forge and face dozens of Dark Jedi Masters and Sith Lords they slaughter without difficulty. Kyle Katarn, a largely self-taught Jedi Knight, defeats seven Dark Jedi and their armies. His apprentice, Jaden Korr, defeats Dark Lord of the Sith Marka Ragnos while the latter is possessing Tavion.

    However, these aren't the most common complaints about Starkiller. They are more upset about Starkiller's most well-known feats of pulling down a Star Destroyer and defeating Darth Vader. These are the two more controversial facts about Starkiller and should be addressed in their own separate sections.

    Controversy 3#: Starkiller pulling Down a Star Destroyer is dumb.

    In order to galvanize resistance against the Emperor, Starkiller is ordered by Darth Vader to attack Raxus Prime's shipyards. After using an ore cannon to destroy the shipyards, an Imperial Star Destroyer starts falling into the atmosphere and Starkiller is told by Jedi Master Rahm Koto to stop it with the Force.
    Massive objects have been moved with the Force before. Yoda stated the only difference between moving rocks and an X-wing was in Luke's mind. The famous "Size matters not" quote is a statement about the infinite power of the Force. Neither midiclorians or an upper limit to the amount a person can lift is mentioned.

    We get a demonstration of this with Dorsk 81, Khommite clone, who is never indicated to be anything special in the Force. However, infamously, he is able to summon the power of his fellow Jedi to drive away a fleet of Victory-class Star Destroyers. Naga Sadow destroyed suns with the Force, Darth Nihilus annihilated a Miralukan colony world, Darth Sidious destroyed much of the New Repuiblic fleet in Dark Empire with a Force storm, and Darth Vitiate eradicated an entire world with the power of the Dark Side.

    Starkiller does none of this.

    Instead, he merely manages to redirect the flight path of a Star Destroyer which is still partially in-flight. Given the Star Destroyer’s repulsors are still nominally working, this would actually be far easier than it appears. It is also an incredible test of Starkiller's abilities and requires him to draw on his love of Juno to achieve it. Cheesy as it sounds, the power of love as a channel for the Force is probably greater than hatred.

    Controversy 4#: Starkiller defeating Darth Vader diminishes the films’ central villain.


    Perhaps the most egregious act in fanboys’’ eyes is the defeat of one of an iconic villain. Darth Vader is one of the most formidable bad guys in the history of cinema and any time he's defeated either in Expanded Universe material, people object. In the case of Starkiller, Galen Marek defeated Darth Vader not once but twice. Given Darth Vader is frequently given credit for destroying the Jedi Order, an act which we now know was mostly accomplished by the Empire's armies, this is terrible offense.

    The first question we need to ask ourselves is: how formidable is Darth Vader, really? The answer is considerably so. While we don't know his exact count of Jedi killed; we do know he's defeated such Jedi Masters as Cin Drallig, Obi Wan Kenobi (who threw the fight to help Luke Skywalker escape), the Dark Woman, Roan Shryne, Axton Tredway, Jocasta Nu, Koffi Arana, and Hylon. He is also notable for slaying the resurrected Darth Maul during an encounter on Kalakar Six.

    Darth Vader is not invincible, though. The comic Purge depicted Darth Vader needing to resort to trickery in order to defeat a cabal of Jedi bent on his death. Boba Fett was briefly able to fight him to a standstill in Boba Fett: Enemy of the Empire.

    Possessed by Obi Wan Kenobi's ghost, Luke Skywalker defeated Darth Vader on Mimban in Splinter of the Mind's Eye. Luke Skywalker would eventually prove his superiority to his father on the Second Death Star, maiming him during their climatic ROTJ duel. Finally, no depiction of Darth Vader's combat prowess would be complete without Obi Wan Kenobi's crippling defeat of him on Mustafar.

    Having established the Dark Lord's credentials, let us turn to Starkiller's less impressive ones. Starkiller has clearly been acting as Darth Vader's assassin for some time by the events of The Force Unleashed, enough that he has gone through several pilots before Juno Eclipse was assigned to him. Yet, it is only by the time of the game he is assigned to hunt down a Jedi Knight.

    While Starkiller defeats Rahm Koto, he fails to kill him. He is more successful at killing lunatic Jedi Master Kazdan Paratus and Jedi High Councilwoman, Shaak-Ti. Later, Starkiller proves his skills by killing numerous Imperial Royal Guardsman and Shadow Guards. The latter which may or may not be the precursors to Emperor Palpatine's Sovereign Protectors (of which future Sith Lord and Emperor Carnor Jax was one).

    Starkiller is certainly no slouch but he is the clear underdog in this contest. So, is it believable that he is able to defeat Darth Vader? As a fan of both the Dark Lord and Starkiller, I'm torn. I don't even like admitting Luke Skywalker defeated Darth Vader in Return of the Jedi. While one might argue Vader has fatherly feelings towards Starkiller, it's highly unlikely they're anything close to those he had for the child of his beloved Padme.

    In fact, what only saves the first victory for me isn't Starkiller is powerful enough to defeat the Dark Lord. I don't believe he is. I think Starkiller could give his master an excellent workout, maybe even fight him to a standstill, but defeat him? No. I think, instead, Starkiller defeated Darth Vader's suit.

    During Evasive Action: Recruitment, Darth Vader faces down a number of Jedi Agricultural Corps members who have been selected for candidacy in the Imperial Inquisition. It is a pathetically one-sided contest but the future High Inquisitor Antinnis Tremayne attacks the controls on Darth Vader’s suit. This temporarily disables the Dark Lord.

    Darth Vader’s suit being his Achilles Heel is borne out by Return of the Jedi where it is damage to his artificial lungs which finally kills the Dark Lord, not Palpatine’s Force Lightning. When Starkiller defeats Darth Vader during their battle on the first Death Star, it is the destruction of the Dark Lord’s helmet which disables him. While Darth Vader is able to get up after Emperor Palpatine “kills” Starkiller, he is clearly missing his breathing apparatus and probably needs immediate medical attention.

    The second battles' gameplay implies Darth Vader learned his lesson from his first confrontation with Starkiller. The battle against the Dark Lord is significantly tougher with his armor more or less ignoring Starkiller's dual lightsabers, Force Lightning, and thrown objects. Vader is hit literally hundreds of time without problem and it's quite possible that he's improved his armor since their last confrontation.

    Starkiller's victory over the Dark Lord only comes when Galen Marek thinks Vader has killed his one true love. Abandoning himself to the Dark Side of the Force, Starkiller proceeds to channel the electricity stored in Kamino's power towers to enhance his Force Lightning powers. You still have to use Galen's Dark Side and power-station enhanced electricity dozens of time in rapid succession in order to force Vader to his knees.

    Even here, Starkiller's victory is questionable. Darth Vader's purpose on Kamino was not to kill Starkiller but corrupt him to the Dark Side. Having failed that objective but discovered Juno Eclipse is Starkiller's Achilles' Heel, it's entirely possible Darth Vader decided to surrender to the Rebellion as part of a larger plan.

    The Dark Side ending to The Force Unleashed 2 reveals Darth Vader was in no real danger with a nearby loyal Starkiller clone ready to intervene. Given the complete inability of the Rebellion to hold someone as formidable as Darth Vader prisoner, it's highly likely the only result of his capture was the revelation of the Alliance’s Dantooine base. As Vader says in the ending, “As long as she [Juno Eclipse] lives, I will control you.” These are not the words of a beaten man.

    Besides, we know Darth Vader escapes and resumes command of the Imperial military. In short, Starkiller achieves pyrrhic victories over Darth Vader. He is able to beat him but it is questionable how much of a triumph either of these battles was in the long run.

    Controversy 5#: Starkiller’s role in the creation of the Rebellion diminishes its other founders.


    A major point of contention with The Force Unleashed is it retcons the foundation of the Alliance to a secret plot by Palpatine and Vader to lure out the Empire’s enemies. Starkiller gathers Bail Organa, Mon Mothma, Princess Leia, Rahm Koto, and Garm Bel Iblis together before convincing them to join together into an organized rebellion. The Rebellion is so impressed by Galen Marek's actions they choose to adopt his family crest as their symbol.

    As much as Galen Marek deserves credit for his role in the foundation of the Rebellion, it should be noted his role is not quite as amazing as some fans have made it out to be. Likewise, the Sith shooting themselves in the foot is a frequent occurrence in canon.

    Jan Dodonna was unwilling to join the Rebellion until assassins literally broke down his door. The Second Death Star was a trap conceived by Palpatine to destroy the Rebellion in a manner very similar to the action which created it. Heck, Luke only joined the Rebellion due to the murder of his Aunt and Uncle. As Princess Leia told Tarkin, "The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."

    It has been established in the Expanded Universe that Bail Organa, Mon Mothma, and Garm Bel Iblis were all heads of their own revolutionary movements beforehand. Rahm Koto was also head of a militia carrying out attacks against the Galactic Empire during this time period. In short, all four of them were already in open resistance against the Empire. They were not alone either as it the Alliance's chief benefit was uniting existing resistance against the Empire together. The Mon Calamari, Bothans, and Wookiees would eventually join in the struggle to liberate the galaxy.

    The fact these individuals did not already get together may bother some fans but we have an established in-canon distrust between Garm Bel Iblis and Mon Mothma. All three were ostensibly Imperial Loyalists, so it's understandable why the three were hesitant to join together. The Delegation of 2000 was the last time Imperial Senators sought to resist Palpatine and it proved to be a disaster.

    Even so, Bail Organa tells Starkiller he's got friends he could gather together for their resistance and was already working with Rahm Koto. In short, the Rebellion was well on its way into being formed. Starkiller merely made things considerably easier by destroying the shipyards at Raxus Prime and rescuing them from imprisonment on the first Death Star.

    As for the symbol of the Rebellion being Galen Marek's family seal, it is notable the Alliance Firebird bears a strong resemblance to several already famous symbols. The Jedi Order symbol, the Jedi-Republic Symbol during the Great Galactic War, and the crest of Adar Tallon all bear similarities to the Marek family crest.

    http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/7/71/Redstarbird.svg

    http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/b/bc/StupidRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit.svg

    http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/2/2f/Jedi_Order.svg

    http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/8/88/Tallon's_Family_Crest.jpg

    In short, it's an already famous symbol. Leia is less devoting their flag to Galen Marek in particular than honoring him by taking up the equivalent of an eagle from his family heraldry. People in the galaxy would get the symbolism even if they had no idea who Galen Marek was.

    Controversy 6#: Luke vs. Galen – Why Do We Need Both?

    This is a final complaint about Galen Marek. Having been created as an "Anti-Luke" or what would have happened if Darth Vader had corrupted his son to the Dark Side, Starkiller has a great deal of similarity to the Son of Skywalker. Galen Marek is Darth Vader's adoptive son if you are sufficiently twisted enough to consider Sith apprenticeship a form of fatherhood. Certainly, Starkiller considers Darth Vader to be his archenemy and manages to inflict massive damage on the Empire during his rebellion. With Galen Marek a canonical character, why wouldn't the Rebellion have him teach Luke Skywalker the ways of the Force? Why wouldn't they team up and destroy the Dark Lord? The original game answered this question by killing Galen Marek but The Force Unleashed 2 brought him back.

    My response to that is "a story untold is not a story by itself." It's still some time before the events of A New Hope and anything could happen in the meantime. Starkiller could lose the Force, be killed (again), end up imprisoned in carbonite, or simply choose to abandon the Rebellion.

    In The Force Unleashed 2, he makes it clear his only priority is Juno Eclipse and has cares little for the Rebellion he helped create. Starkiller doesn't hate the Empire, he only hates its masters. We see this expressed in his disgust when Darth Vader orders him to eliminate all the Imperials at the TIE factory Rahm Koto is attacking. While unlikely, it's possible the Emperor might capture Starkiller and convert to the Dark Side again. In short, there's many ways that Starkiller's saga can end without him being just off-camera at the Battle of Hoth.

    Frankly, Starkiller is a poor substitute for Luke Skywalker in reviving the Jedi as well. Rahm Koto gives Galen Marek little Jedi instruction during their time together, pointing him like a blaster at the Empire. Starkiller, instead, relies on his Sith training to eradicate the Rebellion's enemies.

    The only Jedi instruction he receives is at the hands of Dagobah's cave and what he manages to learn from his father's ghost. In short, Starkiller has all the power of a Jedi Knight but none of the wisdom. For that, he'll need to divorce himself from Rahm Koto and find a real teacher.

    Perhaps Luke Skywalker after the Battle of Endor.
     
    Ordo N-11, darth fluffy, Esg and 9 others like this.
  2. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2013
    =D=

    Very well-written, my friend.
     
  3. Trip

    Trip Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2003
    Charles that looks like a really cool essay and all but I'm pretty sure the biggest problem people have with TFU is that it's stupid and doesn't make any sense and also that Juno Eclipse is the worst character ever since Ahsoka Tano. (Well actually that last one might just be mine.) But like for real has anyone complained about Rhett crashing a star destroyer since... before the game even came out? Do people really quibble about it "breaking the Rule of Two"? I'm having flashbacks to 2008 here yo
     
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  4. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    My biggest quip with Starkiller and Kota (and X2, and other random characters) is that the concept of Rebellion-allied Jedi running around and doing stuff during the OT is directly contrary to everything about the OT. It slaps the OT in the face, takes a dump on it, and laughs at the idea of Luke being the last Jedi (which, you know, was the central idea of the entire trilogy). It's "OMG the prequels happened and they had cool lightsabers, let's put that into the original movies!" at the expense of coherency and logic. It's a concept that you wouldn't expect to find outside of a nine-year-old's fan fiction. No novel author would ever be allowed to get away with it, but because Lucasarts considers cool lightsaber-swinging game mechanics more important than storytelling, they get a free pass.

    The game would have been perfect if someone had had the balls to slap a non-canon tag on it.
     
  5. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    It's just me talking about the overall question of Starkiller's power level.

    As for the Rule of Two issue? Yeah, a lot of people thought the idea Starkiller was Vader's Sith Apprentice was questionable as it seemed to, again, elevate him to movie-canon levels of importance.

    Which a major issue in itself.

    As for Juno? I don't dislike her but she doesn't do or say much.
     
    Ordo N-11 likes this.
  6. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2013
    I will say that Juno in TFU2 is far more bearable than Juno in TFU.
     
    Charlemagne19 likes this.
  7. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    Nah, it's a sign of the Jedi/Sith dichotomy that has taken over the Star Wars Expanded Universe. If all the 90s EU was written with knowledge of the prequels, there would have been tons of Jedi running around during the OT. Plus we already know K'Kruhk was just biding his time to lead the Jedi.
     
  8. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    The Rebellion was always allied with the Jedi.

    Corwin Shelvay
    Fable Astin
    Tyneir Renz
    Qu Rahn

    "May the Force be with you."

    Also, no one said Rahm Koto survives to ESB. There's still plenty of time for these two Jedi to be killed or get exiled or what not.
     
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  9. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006

    Yeah. The prevalence of the Jedi/Sith dichotomy is just awful. It's become the default concept, and there's rarely any depth to it. It's usually swinging lightsabers, crackling force lightning, and intense action-packed duels at the expense of good stories or narrative coherence. Guys like Ostrander and JJM actually do unique and original things with it without butchering the OT, but sadly they're the exception rather than the rule. One of the major reasons that I've become so disenfranchised with the EU in the past couple of years is that EVERY SINGLE ERA LOOKS EXACTLY THE SAME. It's all one big Jedi-Sith war with hundreds of lightsabers. The OT is amazing because it's supposed to decidedly not look like that. Blackman must have not gotten that memo.
     
  10. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006

    Oh, I have problems with every Rebellion Jedi other than Luke. Sorry man, but appealing to other bad EU decisions doesn't make this one any better. Nobody should ever follow bad precedent and then think that their awful canon-wrecking is justified just because other people have similarly wrecked canon. Bad EU decisions need to be retconned and smoothed over, not compounded.

    Starkiller and Kota are probably the most glaring because they help found the Rebellion and lead its war machine in its early days. Even if they die in between TFUII and ANH, it's still terrible. Luke is supposed to be unique as the Rebellion's Jedi hero; he's not supposed to be the third or fourth incarnation of something that the Rebellion has always had. He's supposed to bring something to the Rebellion that nobody else has ever been able to bring. Making the Rebellion founded by another Jedi cheapens him and helps turn him into "Just another Rebel Jedi."
     
  11. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    For me, OTOH, the Jedi *NOT* including anyone who fought the Empire is insulting to what they're supposed to be. The idea that the Jedi wouldn't try to overthrow the Empire just doesn't fit with what we know of them.

    If they're all like Kai Hudorra, they don't DESERVE to be resurrected by Luke.

    It's just by ESB, they're all DEAD.

    Martyrs.
     
  12. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    I've said this before, but there's an big difference between what Luke and Starkiller accomplish.

    Both of them are able to beat Darth Vader, but as ROTS shows us, killing Vader is not the path to victory. To destroy the Sith and the Empire, you need to kill Palpatine.

    And as both Luke and Starkiller found out, Darth Sidious is much stronger than Darth Vader.

    Starkiller managed to beat Darth Vader, an impressive feat. But it accomplished absolutely nothing. Once Starkiller or Luke defeated Vader, Vader's Master got off his throne, stretched and yawned and then complimented him on defeating his apprentice and told the hero to kill him and take his place.

    Of course, being a hero and wanting to destroy the Sith, they both refuse. At which point Palpatine gets mad and shows them why Vader bows to him.

    Defeating Darth Vader is impressive, but even if you do, you've still got to beat Darth Sidious, a much more difficult challenge.

    Starkiller beats Vader, and is then utterly pummeled by the Emperor and dies very quickly. He fares about as well as Mace Windu and significantly worse than Yoda. At least Yoda managed to escape with his life. Starkiller loses his.

    Killing Vader won't help you against Palpatine. Luke does the exact same thing as Starkiller, gives in to his anger and crushes Vader. And then promptly gets electrocuted by Palpatine. The only difference between Luke and Starkiller is that Luke is a Jedi and embraces the Light Side in it's entirety and refuses to fight. And it's only when the Son of Skywalker is being tortured to death by the Lord of the Sith, that Darth Vader gives up the Dark Side and becomes Anakin Skwalker again.

    And then the Chosen One does what no one else could. He destroys the ultimate evil at the cost of his own life.

    Mace Windu and Yoda couldn't kill Darth Sidious and neither could Starkiller. Luke, had he fought, would have fared no better than any of the others who tried before him.

    It was only the Chosen One who could destroy the Sith, and Luke was the only one who managed to awaken the good in Anakin Skywalker and got him to fulfill his destiny and eradicate the Sith.
     
  13. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    Yeah, it's a mess that there turned out to be like 800 Purge survivors. If we lived in a world of zero (maybe two or three, but definitely not K'Kruhk) Purge survivors and no Rebel Jedi other than Luke, then the OT would be as important to the EU as it should be. The constant "What you saw in the movies is NOTHING compared to my original characters" attitude that EU authors take is just sad.
     
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  14. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Uh, when do you think the Purge took place? A New Hope makes it clear it's still on-going. It doesn't end until Yoda's death.

    So why COULDN'T Jedi join the Rebellion?
     
    Ordo N-11 likes this.
  15. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004

    Ostrander is the one that had K'Kruhk and T'ra Saa having leadership roles in the NJO in SW Legacy.
     
  16. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    Heh heh, yeah. That's the one aspect of Legacy that I can't bring myself to like no matter how hard I try. The rest of it was boss
     
    Gamiel likes this.
  17. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2011
    I haven't seen anyone complain about Galen breaking the Rule of Two since the first game came out. Really it's been that long since its been an issue. :p Beyond that I agree with the many reasons it doesn't really break the Rule, and i'm sure by now everyone knows that of the problems I have with Galen his strength in the Force isn't one of them. The Star Destroyer issue's another that I haven't seen brought up in a while.


    In terms of Galen vs Vader, I don't think people find it unbelievable that Galen won, whatever credentials the two may have. They simply don't like that Galen won/was in a position to win. I disagree with the notion that Galen only defeated Vader's suit. I think it's made clear in the game, book, and comic, that Galen straight up whooped Vader's ass in both lightsaber combat and the Force. In TFU2 however, putting aside the fact that Vader should've died from the amount of Lightning he was hit with, I think there's cause to believe he threw the fight. So I don't count the 2nd victory as a triumph, but the 1st certainly was and I can understand why people are angry about it.

    Finally I think everyone also knows my thoughts on Galen being included in the Rebellion's founding (Unnecessary and pointless to sum it all up) and my thoughts on him existing as a foil to Luke (Just have Starkiller die before A New Hope and all will be well.)

    Nice essay.

    Jeff_Ferguson I have to agree with you. Too big a deal was made about Luke being the last Jedi and having to scrounge around for their teachings and knowledge. For EU authors to just have 100's still active, and some actively working with the Rebellion is ridiculous.
     
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  18. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006

    Because of the OT. Luke was the last Jedi; the movies made that clear. It's the whole point of the entire trilogy. There shouldn't be any Jedi around to even join the Rebellion. Does ANH really make it clear that the purge is still ongoing? I don't think it does. Tarkin asserts that the Jedi are long-gone; Ben says that Vader hunted (past tense) and killed (past tense) the Jedi and treats Luke as the galaxy's only hope. Where does it say that the purge is still ongoing? In the OT, Obi-Wan and Yoda are the only Jedi left. The idea of other Jedi being alive during the OT is an EU creation.
     
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  19. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Obi Wan Kenobi: "Now the Jedi are all but extinct."

    Obi Wan Kenobi: "Vader helped the Emperor hunt down and destroy the Jedi"

    Note, he didn't say, Vader destroyed the Jedi Temple and was done.

    Finally, Bail Organa (a member of the Rebellion) turns to Obi Wan Kenobi for help. Which implies this is the sort of thing Obi-Wan can and might be known for doing.

    Yoda and Obi-Wan also change the Temple Codes so that Jedi are warned to stay away from the Temple.

    It's not until Return of the Jedi, which is 2 and a half years later, that Luke is told he's the Last of the Jedi.

    When I was four years old, I was of the mind that there were still Jedi fighting the Empire.

    Likewise, The Force Unleashed is Pre-ANH.
     
  20. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    Eh, I've already explained why I don't see the pre-ANH distinction as important. "All but extinct" refers to Obi-Wan and Yoda; if Lucas had wanted other Jedi to be alive, he would have included them in the films. Leia says to Obi-Wan "Years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars; now he needs your help again." That doesn't imply any contact at all between Ben and Bail since the Clone Wars. You're making pretty big leaps in logic here. Of course Lucas intended the Purge to go beyond ROTS, but there's nothing in the OT to indicate that the Purge is still going on. Edit: Not sure how indicative this is of Lucas's vision, but the ROTJ novelization has Palpatine deduct that Yoda, as the only other Jedi who escaped the Empire's wrath, must be the one who trained Luke after Ben died. /Edit In the OT, the Rebellion is a world apart from both the Jedi and the Purge. The EU, unfortunately, had other ideas.
     
  21. Zeta1127

    Zeta1127 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    So what if some Jedi survived the Great Purge and ended up joining the Alliance, none of those characters did anything to found the Alliance or take away from the fact that it wasn't about Jedi vs. Sith until Luke entered the picture. Fable Astin wasn't even a fully trained Jedi Knight.
     
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  22. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    There's a distinction between writing films which are self-contained and creating a larger universe. George Lucas felt it was important enough to leave it open for other Jedi survivors in ROTS by doing the beacon matters. Furthermore, Padme Amidala talks to the Not-Yet-Formed Rebellion about contacting the Jedi Knights. Depending on what we see in Rebels, we may also see Lucasfilm continue on with the Jedi hunt as Jedi like Ahsoka survive and resist the Empire.

    Rahm Kota joined the Rebellion and Galen Marek protected the early Alliance members. Rahm Kota almost certainly is also dead before ANH.

    Galen is also not necessarily a member of the Rebellion past TFU2.
     
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  23. Zeta1127

    Zeta1127 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Galen Marek took away from the meaning of the founding of the Alliance to Restore the Republic, no way you phrase it will ever convince me to the contrary. And its Rahm Kota not Koto.
     
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  24. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2011
    ^Agreed. Also, in terms of Lucas having that beacon appear in ROTS. That was 1)Years, decades in fact, after the EU had shown numerous Jedi surviving past ROTS. So really, that was George, for all the flak he gets, doing the EU a favor. And 2)that doesn't really mean anything in terms of Jedi still being alive during the OT. "Vader helped the Emperor hunt down and destroy the Jedi" is a very final and closing statement, as if the matter's over and done with.
     
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  25. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    No one said they did. The Force Unleashed is not the OT, though. Merely some lasted long enough to join the fight for freedom and continued to battle evil even if it meant their deaths.

    I also would be in favor of Rahm Kota falling to the Dark Side.
     
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