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Why the bad reviews???? Nostalgia...

Discussion in 'Archive: Attack of the Clones' started by 18-Toys, Jun 30, 2002.

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  1. Durwood

    Durwood Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    Seriously though, I'd like to have you point out to me what you consider memorable dialogue in AOTC.

    I'll let you know in 20 years.

    Honestly, is the dialogue in the orignal films memorable because it's just that good, or is it memorable simply because we've watched those films countless times over the past 20 years?

    Frankly, I think too many bashers have let nostalgia color their perspective of what they think the originals films are rather than being able to objectively see the originals for what they really are.
     
  2. Krash

    Krash RSA Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 11, 2000
    "If critics could think, there'd be none of us here, would there?" [face_laugh] Great line DarthHomer!


    "Don't use the disproportionate amount of gushing on these threads as evidence that the prequels have been well received."

    So, what your saying is...only give credit to the opinions that fall in line with what you think? What you call "disproportionate amount," I call a large show of support by the many fans who enjoy SW.

    There is this misconception nowadays that: "if you can't say something nice... say whatever you want!" And while there is nothing wrong with debating among your fellow fans. The amount of "monday-morning quaterbacking" is out of control.

    Much of the negative reviews, by fans and critics alike...in my humble opinion...come from this fear that what GL does to answer the questions fans have had for years will be different from their expectations; hence in their opinion...be wrong (from their own "certain point of view.")
     
  3. Undomiel

    Undomiel Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 17, 2002
    Krash,

    I noticed part of my problem was I watched the trailers! Had I not watched and guessed at what the short snippets meant, I would've went into the theater with no expectations other than to be entertained. But since I saw what tiny bits of the film in advance, my mind started concocting all kinds of possible scenarios for the snippets! That was a bad thing. For example:

    I REALLY had an intense, long-lasting lightsaber fight pegged for Anakin and Dooku after seeing that brief snippet of it in the trailer. When it ended as quickly as it did, with Anakin laid out with a missing arm, it was a shock to me. I determined then and there, never to watch another trailer before the actual film unless I already knew what was going to happen (such as watching a trailer of a LotR film, since I've read the books many times).

    This, I think, is the problem! When ESB came out, I was *counts on fingers and toes*... 20 years old. The ONLY spoilers to be had back then were slim, slim and again I say SLIM! Today, you can read the book, the script, download the trailers and previews, and share information passed on by studio hands, in advance of the film ever showing. That didn't happen with the OT! That's where some of the fascination and expectation of the OT is coming from, and where the PT is getting a raw deal. At least, that's my story and I'm stickin' with it! :D

    -Undomiel
     
  4. darthsidious32

    darthsidious32 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2000
    Durwood, you're absolutely right. Nostalgia has clouded many minds.

    Both the OT and the PT have good and bad acting. Both have good and bad dialogue. The difference? About 20-some years.

    For me, the prequels have screamed nothing but Star Wars. They feel the same. And the stories have come nothing short of excellent. In many respects, the prequels are just as good, if not better than the originals. It's just that nostalgia is what makes a difference in people's minds. Somehow, all the lame and unrealistic dialogue in the OT seems perfectly natural. Somehow the whining Luke does is acceptable, while Anakin's is not. Somehow the love story between Han and Leia seems fine, and yet the love story between Anakin and Padme doesn't. It IS nostalgia that makes the difference.

    So in 20-some years from now, the same thing will happen for the next generation of fans that aren't tainted by OT nostalgia. If that new generation grows up with all six movies completed, there won't be an "OT standard" (a flawed standard by the way) for grading episodes I-III. There won't BE an OT or PT. It'll all be one saga. It'll be very interesting to see what they think of the movies.
     
  5. Imperial_Guard

    Imperial_Guard Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jun 13, 2002
    Nostalgia as a sole reason for prequel discontent is a pretty incomplete assessment. In another thread, it was mentioned that the humor has been "dumbed down". I tend to agree even though I've liked the prequels overall. Jar Jar's antics in TPM combined with poop and fart jokes are one example. Threepio "the bendy toy" in the droid foundry is another. I was never an Ewok-hater but these examples make the Ewoks look even better. I mean, love em or hate em, the Ewoks had a purpose and were useful. All you have to do is pop the tapes in the VCR and the OT generally relies more on witty dialogue and juxtaposition (ex: Han and Threepio in ESB, Han and Leia in ANH) for its sense of humor and fun.

    "But Jar Jar is necessary for iniating the voting of emergency powers," someone might say.

    Really? Jar Jar is the only character that could fill this role? I'm not so sure.

    I also don't see the OT/PT split going away anytime soon, even after Episode III. The prequels are different and some people will always adamantly prefer the OT and loathe the prequels, new generation or old. This is a rather unique and odd situation. It's possible to be a Star Wars fan and not like Star Wars.

     
  6. Padawan92

    Padawan92 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jan 22, 2001
    If critics could think, there'd be none of us here, would there?" Perfect line. I think the only thing critics like is to make people anger. All they like is art looking movies. They think the opposite of what normal people think.
     
  7. Imperial_Guard

    Imperial_Guard Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 13, 2002
    Critic bashing is pointless. Critics only liking "art looking" movies is simply ridiculous. How do you explain positive reviews for Spider-Man? Or another example would be Road To Perdition. This film just opened and is getting rave reviews. But if critics like it, "normal people" must hate it even though several "normal people" in the box office thread have reported seeing it ang loving it.

    Back to AOTC though. Not every critic hated AOTC. In fact, a number of critics enjoyed it. But they're critics so they must be idiots like the rest? Please.

     
  8. darthsidious32

    darthsidious32 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Nov 26, 2000
    I personally don't think critics are necessarily idiots. There have been critics that gave positive reviews to movies I like - such as Lord of the Rings, Minority Report, and A.I. Many critics DO like AOTC also. But one has to admit that there are many that are idiots. They do find stupid and illogical reasons to badly criticize movies.

    Ultimately, we have to realize that there's no real way to say whether or not a movie is good. Even at the Oscars, the Best Picture award is based on the majority of subjective opinions.
     
  9. Durwood

    Durwood Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    May 18, 2002
    I also don't see the OT/PT split going away anytime soon, even after Episode III.

    The split will remain only because a handful of disgruntled Star Wars "fans" will desperately cling to this division. For the new generation of Star Wars fans (and for us true fans) the divide between the "old" and "new" will be minimal if not completely absent.

    (Now, of course, someone is going to take issue with me calling those of us who enjoy all the Star Wars films "true fans", but the question has to be asked: If you only like two films out of the six film saga--I'm assuming that the bashers will hate Episode III as well--can you really call yourself a fan of the series?)
     
  10. Imperial_Guard

    Imperial_Guard Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jun 13, 2002
    I would say that such fans are more like "select fans" similar to a Star Trek fan who only likes one or two of the TV series and hates the others. It doesn't necessarily mean that they're second-class fans.

    The fact remains and will always remain that the prequels are different and this is simply unavoidable after a 16 year gap. Simply because it has a Star Wars logo on it does not mean that the differences will vanish.

     
  11. darthsidious32

    darthsidious32 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Nov 26, 2000
    "I would say that such fans are more like "select fans" similar to a Star Trek fan who only likes one or two of the TV series and hates the others. It doesn't necessarily mean that they're second-class fans."

    No, it means that they are not fans, but rather people who enjoyed a couple movies out of the saga. The closest you could say is that they are fans of those two movies. But classifying them as Star Wars fans just doesn't work too well.

    "The fact remains and will always remain that the prequels are different and this is simply unavoidable after a 16 year gap. Simply because it has a Star Wars logo on it does not mean that the differences will vanish."

    I think it will vanish for those new generations that view the saga completed. They won't experience a 16 year time gap between the OT and the PT - therefore the OT and the PT won't exist to them, but rather one saga.
     
  12. JohnWilliams00

    JohnWilliams00 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jan 29, 2002
    The two most annoying english words I've seen the last month or so are "nostalgia" and "rose-colored glasses".(okay, really a phrase).

    If we are so tainted by nostalgia (like you know our minds), shouldn't AOTC be better receieved than? Wouldn't there be even MORE gushing, instead of the other way around?

    Nostalgia is just an excuse to explain the rising number of bashing or difference of opinions of something you liked.
     
  13. Vonn

    Vonn Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2000
    Road to Perdition is getting rave reviews??? I think not.
     
  14. darthsidious32

    darthsidious32 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Nov 26, 2000
    "If we are so tainted by nostalgia (like you know our minds), shouldn't AOTC be better receieved than? Wouldn't there be even MORE gushing, instead of the other way around?"

    Not necessarily. People grew up on the OT. The PT cannot possibly mean to them what the OT does. It cannot be a part of their childhood. So automatically, the prequels will be received differently by many.

    Even for people who didn't "grow up" on them(meaning they were adults when the OT came out), there was still 16 years of waiting - meaning extreme build up for the first prequel. The first prequel was destined for a let down. It wasn't a let down to me(as well as many other fans), but it was to a lot of people for one reason or another.

    16 years of nostalgia means that people become jaded, and cannot see that the OT has just as many faults as the PT does. They've seen the movies so many times and have grown to love them over so many years. So much so, that they fail to see that there's really no difference in these new prequels other than the fact that they're new and not apart of that 16 year time period. They fail to see the same kind of cheesy dialogue and acting. And many times, they are grounded too much into reality that they can't reach that inner-child within. Suspension of disbelief doesn't work for them anymore. It's really a sad thing, because these prequels have really be excellent so far.
     
  15. DarthHomer

    DarthHomer Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 29, 2000
    Maybe the nostalgia argument would go away if fans who disliked the prequels posted an honest critical assessment of the OT as well?
    I don't mind people pointing out the flaws of the prequels, as long as they're willing to admit the OT isn't perfect, either. What really bugs me is when people say things like: "sure you enjoy AOTC now, but once you can look back objectively in a few years time you'll see it wasn't a very good Star Wars film". Imagine if, after watching ANH the first time, someone told you "Sure you love it now, but when you grow up you'll realise this is just a cheesy B movie for kids". It's the same thing. BTW, my response would be:
    "Noooo! That's not true! That's impossible!" :)
     
  16. JohnWilliams00

    JohnWilliams00 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 29, 2002
    Well, I posted this in the Phantom Editor thread, but to save my breath, I'll copy it here:


    Durwood:

    [b][i]---As for Star Wars, the preceived qualitative gap between the originals and the new films is based on nothing more than people's skewed nostalgic perspective where they remember the original films for what they think they are rather than what they truly are.[/i][/b]

    I don't agree here. I watch the OT frequently from time to time, and I still get a kick out of them. To me, there's a big qualitative difference between the trilogies.

    I'd estimate it like this, the percentage of which I loved:

    ANH - Nearly 95% or more.

    ESB - Ditto

    ROTJ - 85%-90%

    TPM - 40% / other 60% is incompetant, laughable, boring drivel

    AOTC - 50% or more. A lot of hit or miss.

    When I watch the final 20 mintue Battle of Yavin in ANH, I can't find a moment in the PT that matches the sheer brilliance in its suspense, tension, and marvelous pacing and editing. Or the final duel in ESB, I can't find an equal moment like that in the PT. And even the final space battle in ROTJ is completely stunning to this very day -- and there is not a moment in the PT, in my opinion, that comes close to that epic space battle.

    And I prefer the ROTJ speederbike scene and the ESB asteroid scene to the AOTC Coruscant chase/Jango chase scene. The tension, breathlessness of it all seems more intense.

    I'll give the PT one thin, I loved the Maul duel in TPM. That would be the PT's highlight for me.

    So you see, I've tried to explain why I personally get more enjoyment out of the OT. And it's not nostalgia because I saw the OT for the first time back in, say, 1994 or so.

    And I don't think other PT detractors should be lumped into one simple "nostalgia camp". I think many others share my feelings too.
    [hr]

    I'll elaborate more on my OT flaws. (which isn't very long [face_silly] and more on why I get more enjoyment out of the OT over the PT. But for now, I have to go to work and will be back to respond at a later time. Um, ciao. See, I can speak Italian.
     
  17. Imperial_Guard

    Imperial_Guard Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 13, 2002
    Road To Perdition is getting rave reviews??? I think not.

    Please direct me to a review that isn't favorable because I have yet to hear a negative word said about this film.
     
  18. Imperial_Guard

    Imperial_Guard Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 13, 2002
    I think it will vanish for those new generations that view the saga completed. They won't experience a 16 year gap between the OT and PT.

    No, but they will still experience the approximate 20 year gap in the actual story. That's more what I was trying to get at rather than the PT versus OT politics that fans tend to engage in.

    When the saga is finished, it will still be recognizable as Act 1 and Act 2 with similarities to tie them together but also differences to distinguish them, no matter what generation you're from.

    I think a better case for unity could be made if the prequels were set 10 years before the OT (starting with Episode I) so that the story flowed directly into the OT films.

    One of the examples that I provided earlier about an aspect where they have differed so far in terms of general humor still hasn't been addressed, I might add.

     
  19. darthsidious32

    darthsidious32 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2000
    Imperial guard, just because there's a 20 year gap between "Act 1" and "Act 2" doesn't makes it bad. There will be that difference. But that doesn't mean that they'll view the OT as being great and the PT being awful.

    And I do admit that the humor in TPM was different and not as good as the OT humor. But I felt that AOTC brought that aspect back. It's humor was witty and clever like in the OT. TPM just relied on poop and fart jokes. It was a bit immature for Star Wars. But I'm ok with it.
     
  20. Imperial_Guard

    Imperial_Guard Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 13, 2002
    I think you've misunderstood my last post and my point in general. Nowhere did I make any value judgments about the prequels being awful. All I was trying to get at was that they are and will be different (not in a completely bad way) compared to "Act 2", although there are and will be some underlying similarities running through the saga as a whole in terms of themes, imagery, etc. I should have used a more positive example instead of TPM's humor to make myself clearer about the differences not always being a bad thing. (Politics, moral ambiguity in AOTC, wider scope for the prequel universe, for example)

    At this point, I should probably repeat that I have enjoyed the prequels overall. Do I prefer the OT? Yes.
    Does that mean I despise the prequels? No.

    I agree. AOTC had more wit and charm that tends to be associated with the OT.
     
  21. Kryatt_Dragon

    Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Mar 15, 2002
    People grew up on the OT. The PT cannot possibly mean to them what the OT does. It cannot be a part of their childhood. So automatically, the prequels will be received differently by many.

    darthsidious,

    Even though I didn't care for AOTC overall I really liked the Dooku/Obi-Wan scene. Even though it reminded me of the Luke/Darth Vader conflict in TESB, contrary to what you're implying, I didn't like it because it allowed to me to bask in nostalgia. Nostalgia did factor in, I admit, but I also liked it simply because it showed a "genuine" synergy between two great actors.

    Nostalgia is really only a part of the overall picture. If I only wanted to re-experience the past then how would it be possible for me to enjoy a scene with two different actors and one new character?

    Christopher Lee is a perfect example of why the nostalgia argument just doesn't hold water. The guy so wreaked with charm to the point that he actually made me "forget" about the original trilogy. At that moment in time I really couldn't care less that there was even a thing called "the original trilogy." I was so busy just enjoying two great actors bantering back and forth that I got completeley caught up in the moment. That's the honest truth! To me that's the essence of what a well-crafted prequel would be. It wouldn't so much remind people of the original trilogy as it would remind them why they liked the original trilogy in the first place. The prequels in general fail miserably in this regard...and I mean miserably!

    Seriously...don't you guys think you might be over-playing the nostalgia hand? ;)

    The prequels have a lot more going wrong with them than nostalgia IMHO.

    Nostalgia = Red-Herring
     
  22. Kryatt_Dragon

    Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Mar 15, 2002
    "Don't use the disproportionate amount of gushing on these threads as evidence that the prequels have been well received."

    So, what your saying is...only give credit to the opinions that fall in line with what you think? What you call "disproportionate amount," I call a large show of support by the many fans who enjoy SW.

    I'm not saying "only give credit to the opinions that fall in line with what I think" at all.

    What I'm saying is that, in my experience, there is either a small majority or large minority of people who don't like the prequels and that most of these people don't express their opinions in Star Wars discussion threads. That is all I am saying. I was just using this fact to contradict the idea that it can be determined from these threads, alone, what the overall breakdown of bashers vs. gushers is (percent-wise).

    What I meant by "disproportionate" is that the percentage of people who post on prequel threads and "like the prequels" (whatever is is) is not at all representative of what the actual percentage would be if "all" Star Wars fans were factored in.

    It makes sense that most people who post on prequel threads would "like" the prequels.

     
  23. topgoalscorer_no11

    topgoalscorer_no11 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 23, 2001
    But I know loads of 'casual' fans who really liked AOTC but would never dream of being so sad as to post on a Star Wars message board, because they don't care that much.

    What about this 'silent majority', can you 'factor them in' to your calculations?

    AOTC was my moment of triumph. I took my TPM bsahing friends to opening night, and took their congratulations after the film. The sense of relief was palpable. I was told not to rub it in, and that TPM was 'still crap', but AOTC was free from criticism. People I hadn't spoke to for months phoned me out of the blue to gush. My fifteen year old brother declared it the 'greatest film' he'd ever seen. He'd still not post here.

    Take these normal people into account when deciding how the prequels have been recieved.
     
  24. TokyoXtreme

    TokyoXtreme Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Will someone please explain to me how nostalgia makes the OT better and the PT worse!? I've been waiting a long time for the explanation, but have yet to see it. People just throw out a "nostalgia" here and a "rose-colored glasses" there, but it doesn't really make any logical sense.

    The way I see it, if the OT was as bad (at least bad in being "equal" to the PT, heh heh) as people are claiming, then I would say to myself "whoa, these movies really aren't as good as I remember". Yet, the OT, just like Tron and Pee-Wee's Big Adventure, are actually MUCH better than I EVER remembered! So how does the nostalgia argument (again, what is that) figure in to this equation? Please explain.


    FYI: I saw ESB on widescreen laserdisc in 1995 (against my protests, I'll have you know) and was surprised by how well crafted and dramatic it was. "What! I never remember the movie being THIS good! I thought I was JUST BEING NOSTALGIC!!"
     
  25. TokyoXtreme

    TokyoXtreme Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Bear with me JohnWilliams00, because I know you have heard all my sentiments before, but I'd like to agree that if anything, nostalgia would only work to make the PT seem BETTER than what it actually is. Not worse.

    I have to admit that I get tingles when I hear the 20th Century Fox fanfare, and when the John Williams score erupts. That is from nostalgia. But when I dislike a weak script, or endless unoriginal (by very definition) homages, or half-azzed acting, or whatever else my PT complaints are (and oh there are many), I know it's because I overcame nostalgia, and now I'm calling it like is. I think those who defend the PT zealously are those who are still in the firm grip of nostalgia, unable to escape. You all know the "zealots" I'm talking about.
     
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