Why the bad reviews???? Nostalgia...

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by 18-Toys, Jun 30, 2002.

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  1. TokyoXtreme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    Face it, it's an empty argument. At some point, "nostalgia" became a buzzword that people loved to throw in the face of logical argument. I'd be very surprised if someone were to post a cohesive explanation for people like myself and JohnWilliams00 (maybe the only person in the world who never saw the OT during the 80s!) to address or refute.

    This thread, after all, is entitled "Why the bad reviews???? Nostalgia..."

    Yet there is no absolutely no explanation of how nostalgia causes the bad reviews. It should be in the very first post!!!!
  2. Imperial_Guard Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2002
    star 4
    Nostalgia may be the same word as hype and expectations in this case. The OT was unique, a rare smash success, and it came together well yet TPM and the prequels were being built up to actually surpassthe original films in evoking the same type of atmosphere that surrounded the OT. What many didn't take into account was that the world had changed significantly in 16 years and any adult who saw the OT as a kid and expected to step right back into it after nearly two decades was kidding themselves.
  3. darthsidious32 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2000
    star 4
    TokyoXtreme, this scenario doesn't apply to each and every person who hates the prequels. There will always be exceptions. You're one of those rare cases. But for the most part, people let themselves get jaded by thinking that the OT is much better than the PT. Nostalgia has a big part to do with it. But it's not the explanation for everyone. So just because it doesn't work in your case, doesn't mean that it doesn't work for others.
  4. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    "People will be able to see the prequels as what they truly are, come 2022. They will see that the Star Wars saga was revisited due to the financial aspirations and gigantic hubris of Lucas.
    And people will also be able to see ANH as what it is, too: a masterpiece."


    Actually, I thought the Star Wars saga was revistited because the fans asked for it. But anyway, it's all speculation at this point. I don't doubt there'll be a large percentage of fans who will always prefer the original trilogy (and there'll even be kids in the future who will prefer the prequels, believe it or not). However, once we get far enough away from the prequels, we should at least see an end to these pathetic basher/gusher wars.

    It's similar with TV shows. For example, while shows like The Simpsons and Buffy are still running, you'll always get some fans vehemently arguing the new ones aren't as good as the old ones. But once those shows have finished, most fans will just enjoy watching the repeats, regardless of when the episodes were made. I find with a lot of my favourite TV series that the new episodes don't quite gel with me on first viewing, but once I watch them again I accept them. People will still have their favourite and least favourite episodes in the future, but hopefully you won't get this old fans vs new fans crap.

    And AL, I agree with you that ANH is a masterpiece . . .

    . . . like the whole Star Wars Saga, of course :)
  5. endboss Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 1998
    star 3
    <<<For example, while shows like The Simpsons and Buffy are still running, you'll always get some fans vehemently arguing the new ones aren't as good as the old ones.>>>

    The current quality of The Simpsons reminds me of Star Wars, actually. The 'old' Simpsons had a smarter sense of humor, while the 'new ones' aren't as witty. They're not awful, but there's a definite difference. The quality has deteriorated. Or wait, that must be nostalgia talking, right? The Simpsons hasn't changed, I've changed, right? ;)
  6. Bresson Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 3
    This is from the latest issue of Premiere, written by Glenn Kenny. Bashers and gushers will read what they want in it, but I thought it had a smart summation.

    "There's nothing like an immovable pop culture object to bring out the defensive side of any critic...Critics knew that they would be reflexively trounced by finding fault with Ep 2. Some took the above cited defensive approach, other took a "I didn't like it but I know why you might" stance. A lot of criticsm was as rote and unimaginative as the movie itself was accused of being. 'Gladiator' was regularly trotted out as the defining influence for the penultimate battle scene, which is actually much more informed by Cecil B. DeMille's 1932 'Signs of the Cross'. In fact, one of the most fascinating things about George Lucas's film is its perverse plethora of classic film quotes-ranging from 'The Searchers' to 'Lawrence of Arabia' to Jean Cocteau's 'Beauty and the Beast'. As flawed as 'Attack of the Clones' is, it's flawed on a lot of levels that critics could have had some fun exploring, had they not approached the movie with the dispirited mien of a kid being forced to do his or her homework without dessert."

  7. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    EDIT: Great, now people are statistics experts.

    Thanks for the jab, "Imperial Guard".

    All I'm saying is that it's either a small majority or large minority. Don't kid yourself by thinking otherwise. That's not acting like a statistics expert. The bottom line is that a lot of Star Wars fans have been disappointed by the prequels and it's ridiculous to attribute that to nostalgia, alone.

    The real problem is that prequel gushers can't seem to imagine a new Star Wars movie that could've pleased a wider audience. I'm happy for people who have enjoyed the new movies...envious even...but don't you think it's just a little self-righteous to put all the blame on bashers for either being nostalgic or to hard to please?

    edit: I loved ROTJ as a kid but as an adult I can hardly stand to watch it anymore. I predict that a lot of kids who like these prequels now are going to find it very difficult to revisit them as adults.
  8. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    funny you should mention ROTJ because i just watched it recently and like it alot better now than i used to, because now there are two films that have taken its place as the worst of the saga. IMO the general lameness of TPM and AOTC are totally outshined by the good moments (and even not so good moments) in ROTJ, so i like it much more now. funny eh?
  9. Lord-Gretzky Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 3
    I think there are a few reasons why many think less of the prequels. One of the major ones has to do with nostalgia in my opinion. I feel that alot of the people who think the prequels or are bad or not up to par with the originals is because of their nostalgic feeling towards the originals, something that does not exist in the prequels. It seems to me that there is very little that is similar between the OT and the PT, such as characters involved, new actors who play the characters, new planets, and story wise in general. These are different sets of movies. Different, not better or worse. Nostalgia for the old films is the cause for much of the dissatisfaction in the prequels possibly because there is *no nostalgia in the prequels*... few of the same characters we all love, few of the same actors to play these characters, and a completely different story. You can not be nostalgic for something that just happened to you, can you? Nostalgia builds as time passes and seems to even make bad situations funny and turn them into good situations in fact, atleast in my life. This is the nostlagia factor I believe. Because people are lacking that nostalgic feeling that they get from watching the OT, possibly lends to the feeling that the prequels are of less quality in their eyes.
  10. Lord-Gretzky Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 3
    I think there are a few reasons why many think less of the prequels. One of the major ones has to do with nostalgia in my opinion. I feel that alot of the people who think the prequels or are bad or not up to par with the originals is because of their nostalgic feeling towards the originals, something that does not exist in the prequels. It seems to me that there is very little that is similar between the OT and the PT, such as characters involved, new actors who play the characters, new planets, and story wise in general. These are different sets of movies. Different, not better or worse. Nostalgia for the old films is the cause for much of the dissatisfaction in the prequels possibly because there is *no nostalgia in the prequels*... few of the same characters we all love, few of the same actors to play these characters, and a completely different story. You can not be nostalgic for something that just happened to you, can you? Nostalgia builds as time passes and seems to even make bad situations funny and turn them into good situations in fact, atleast in my life. This is the nostlagia factor I believe. Because people are lacking that nostalgic feeling that they get from watching the OT, possibly lends to the feeling that the prequels are of less quality in their eyes.
  11. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    but the PT films are telling the same stories that were told in the OT, just expanded... if anything nostalgia should make people like the PT even more, since they are stories about the OT.
  12. Lord-Gretzky Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 3
    But it isn't the same story at all. It's completely different. The specifics of the stories that is, are entirely different, you must realize this. Though not the same, they are obviously linked to the PT. But there's no Harrison ford as Han Solo, we love han Solo! We see him now when watching the OT and not only is he good, but we are nostalgic about him and his character at the same time because we've grown up with him over time. But Anakin? Hayden Christiansen? We have never seen that character before, so there isn't any nostlagia to be felt...please DR, this has to make sense.
  13. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "But Anakin? Hayden Christiansen? We have never seen that character before, so there isn't any nostlagia to be felt"

    considering he is to become Darth Vader, dont you think he should at least seem familiar? obi wan and yoda seem familiar... why not the young Darth Vader?
  14. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    funny you should mention ROTJ because i just watched it recently and like it alot better now than i used to, because now there are two films that have taken its place as the worst of the saga. IMO the general lameness of TPM and AOTC are totally outshined by the good moments (and even not so good moments) in ROTJ, so i like it much more now. funny eh?

    oh I completely agree!

    ...relatively speaking it's not hard to beat The Phantom Menace and there are definitely parts of ROTJ that are very well done. I thought Ian McDiarmid was an absolute gem in that film. I remember hearing some of the negative buzz a few weeks before TPM's release and thinking..."If it's as good as ROTJ I can live with it." I had a hard time imagining it would be worse. Boy was I wrong!
  15. Imperial_Guard Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2002
    star 4
    Kryatt_Dragon,

    You're right. I apologize.

    A statistics expert would back up his or her claims with some credible numbers. :D

    As far as I'm concerned, fandom and its politics are largely irrelevant in the real world at the movie theater.
  16. Lord-Gretzky Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 3
    Dr, are you serious? Cmon, I don't even know what to say to that. Familiar? We see Anakin for like 20 seconds in the OT!? Im not saying we dont link the charcters and actors...Im talking about feeling nostalgia for someone specific we grew up with...We have been seeing Darth Vader over and over for years, but we have only recently seen the Anakin character that Hayden is playing, and Hayden himself as well. How can you not understand what I'm saying? Not agree, just understand...does it not make sense to you for real?
  17. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    A statistics expert would back up his or her claims with some credible numbers.

    As far as I'm concerned, fandom and its politics are largely irrelevant in the real world at the movie theater.


    Imperial_Guard,

    As Han Solo might say in response to your sarcasm..."Bring it On!" ;)

    I have to wonder what it would take for people to acknowledge that a lot of people don't like the prequels.

    Not that I have a problem with people liking the prequels..I just think it's tantamount to intellectual dishonesty when gushers insist that the prequels have been generally popular with Star Wars fans when it's clearly not the case.

    It's impossible to have a civilized debate if folks aren't at least willing to admit that.
  18. Imperial_Guard Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2002
    star 4
    See the second part of my post.
  19. Lord-Gretzky Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 3
    Would you say more fans liked or disliked the movie Kraytt?
  20. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    But Anakin? Hayden Christiansen? We have never seen that character before, so there isn't any nostlagia to be felt...please DR, this has to make sense.

    The nostalgia would be in his similarities to Luke and the similarities with settings, situations, dialogue, etc.

    If done properly nostalgia could only make the movie better...not worse.

    With the prequels it looks as if Lucas is purposely avoiding situations that evoke nostalgia. For instance, he no longer shows the stars streaking towards the audience during hyperspace jumps. My rationale would be as long as we're gonna revisit the Lars homestead "why not make it feel like the ANH?" I mean...we're already seeing the same setting, most of the same people, etc. How much time did AOTC spend at the Lars homestead? 5 minutes?
  21. Super_Nation_Jock Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 2002
    star 4


    I don't think the jump to hyperspace is possible in Episodes I and II. I think it's developed later on. In AOTC, Padme says,
    "they have to come halfway across the galaxy" like distance is a huge problem.
    Perhaps it hasn't been developed yet.
    Just thinking out loud.
  22. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    See the second part of my post.

    See the bit I mentioned about intellectual dishonesty and self-righteousness :D

    If you hadn't liked AOTC you'd feel the same way...guaranteed ;)

    Again...it comes down to lack of imagination.

    ...the ability to imagine something better.
  23. Lord-Gretzky Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 3
    So you are saying that only for the sake of not pursing some nostalgic undertones, George Lucas made the Lars scenes 5 minutes? That's the main reason? Well Ok then, finally, some of us are making some sense. What would conjure up more nostalgic feelings for you...watching a video of you and a friend playing in front of your home as kids? Or watching some other kids similarly play in front of a house that sort of looks like your home? Does that analogy work at all?
  24. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    Would you say more fans liked or disliked the movie Kraytt?

    I can't answer that.

    The only thing I know with a fair amount of certainty is that it's a large minority or small majority.

    I would say %30 unfavorable would be a problem and I'm pretty sure it's higher than that.

    Let me just say that I haven't come across a single person who thinks the prequels are as good as the OT. I'm not talking about a few people either.

    I really don't want to rub this into the ground.

    It would be easier if people just accepted it...if we're to have a good debate that is.
  25. Lord-Gretzky Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 3
    What is your opinion though Kraytt? Do you feel more fans like or dislike the movie?
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