Why the bad reviews???? Nostalgia...

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by 18-Toys, Jun 30, 2002.

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  1. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    So you are saying that only for the sake of not pursing some nostalgic undertones, George Lucas made the Lars scenes 5 minutes? That's the main reason?

    I wouldn't be surprised if it had "something" to do with it. In all honesty, however, it probably had more to do with running time. I think it might've been Rick McCullum who said that no one is more ruthless with editing his own movie than George Lucas. I think it's quite obvious that that's the case with AOTC.

    What would conjure up more nostalgic feelings for you...watching a video of you and a friend playing in front of your home as kids? Or watching some other kids similarly play in front of a house that sort of looks like your home? Does that analogy work at all?

    Are the kids related to me?...lol

    The answer is "no"...I don't think the analogy quite works.

    I think you're blowing things out of proportion. I'm not saying "construct every single scene in the movie so I can bask in nostalgia". I'm saying "as long as it's the same exact setting as in a previous movie why not try to give it some of that original Star Wars vibe."

    With the new movies Lucas looks like he's made a pretty succinct break with the past. I mean...he doesn't even have the stars streaking by right before hyperspace for cryin' out loud.

    Nostalgia is one thing but there also has to be a sense of continuity. He shouldn't make something more out of the Lars Homestead just for nostalgia's sake...he should do it to maintain continuity. The same goes for stars streaking by.

    Lucas, seems to be saying "to hell with the past...to hell with my old fans."
  2. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    I think it's quite possible that more people "like" the prequels.

    There...I admit it...are you happy? :D

    ...but so what

    young people outnumber old people...lol

    Does a slim majority speak well for the prequels?
  3. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    ok now try and explain how the dialogue of the PT is a different kind of "bad" from the dialogue in the OT.

    ive tried, in response to the old "star wars has always had bad dialogue" argument.

    im nostalgic for the clever exchanges of the OT.
  4. Lord-Gretzky Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 3
    I was hoping you wouldnt say no to my analogy reasoning..however, the idea that I would be nostalgic for something that I actually and directly grew up with is my point. I did not grow up with Hayden and Anakin, I grew up with Han and Harrison, if that makes sense. I bet that for the most part we all love the OT more and feel it is even better now then we ever thought it was, especially if the first time we saw it was 20 years ago.
  5. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    I can't refute the notion that had I been an adult when I watched the original trilogy I might've disliked it as much as I like the prequels. What I can tell you is that my father saw the original Star Wars one or two times by "himself" and then took me to see it three times because he liked it just as much as I did and just as I do now he despises the Phantom Menace. I think that in itself speaks volumes.

    Don't think for a second that I haven't entertained the thought that my expectations might be too high or that my desire to feel some nostalgia might negate my ability to enjoy these new movies. I've given those things honest consideration and in so doing I still come to the conclusion that these prequels just don't work...they don't stand on their own...OT or no OT.

    ...man

    I think I might be getting a tad too serious :)
  6. TokyoXtreme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    So have we all decided that this nostalgia "argument" is bogus yet?

    Actually, if it were really nostalgia at work, people would actually stop being fans of the OT as they grow up/older (this is assuming for the sake of argument that the OT is "as bad" as the PT). Now that 25 years have passed, adults who grew up with the OT would tell themselves, "that was fun back then, but that movie just isn't as good as I remember". "Empire was fun in '80, but now I prefer LOTR", and etc.

    But strangely, people still like the OT, IN SPITE OF nostalgia. I can only assume it is because the OT is of a higher quality than the PT. Excuses, excuses.

    Another excuse I loathe is the "audience has changed". Today's audience for entertainment is hardly any different from Shakespeare's, era -- much less 1970's. I might even argue that the modern audience hasn't changed much since those of ancient Greek drama.

    (and we all know how much deus ex machina there is in TPM)
  7. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    ...Sorry for the frequent posts!

    ...Sorry for the frequent posts!

    ok now try and explain how the dialogue of the PT is a different kind of "bad" from the dialogue in the OT.

    It's hard to explain it in a few sentences. I prefer to illustrate it.

    I'd have to say that Jar Jar's pidgeon english is bad by any standard. Never in my life did I imagine that I'd hear a Star Wars character say "uh-oh...dissa gonna be messy...me no watchy" such as he did before the pod race. I mean...it kind of reminds me of the old Plastic Man cartoon with Baby Plas'..."Me go and help poppa now"...good grief :( Any time a character substitutes "me" for "I" as a personal pronoun you've got real problems. The closest any character in the original trilogy comes to this was with Yoda...and it really isn't any comparison. Yoda was actually funny in TESB. Yes, there is a kind of absurdity when he says "looking...found someone you have I would say" but it's funny in its absurdity. Jar Jar is just absurd, period.

    The two-headed announcer was another execrable endeavor. I was stunned when he/they (whatever) proclaimed "that human being is out of this universe"...IMG. It would've been bad enough if he/they (whatever) said "world" but "universe?" Practically speaking the Star Wars universe is contained within one galaxy far far way. To say "universe" (billions of galaxies and all) is ludicrous and it just doesn't sound right even in a Star Wars movie. I have to admit that Chewie's Tarzan yodel in ROTJ was a similar mistake but to a lesser degree.

    Then, of course, there's the little kid..."now this is podracing." Of course, if it were up to me Anakin would be an adult by the end of TPM but that's beside the point. I realize we're talking about the Star Wars universe and it's supposed to be far-fetched but come on? Luke nearly got blasted to bits in the Death Star trench and this little punk is making his run on the control ship look like a joyride. I realize that a lot of folks thought Luke was whiny in ANH and arrogant in TESB but there really aren't too many things he does in the OT that come close to the absurdity of Anakin in TPM.

    The original trilogy had absurdities (esp. ROTJ) but they don't come close TPM in intensity. TPM looks like it was purposely designed to offend people.
  8. Imperial_Guard Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2002
    star 4
    The audience may be fundamentally the same but the specific environment and how the entertainment is delivered are much different even between the '70s and now. When people talk about the VHS revolution, SW almost always comes up.

    The nostalgia argument may be largely "bogus" but hype and expectations are still perfectly valid as I mentioned earlier and I believe that there is a slight difference.

    Let me just say that I haven't come across a single person who thinks the prequels are as good as the OT.

    Neither have I. And I never tried to imply otherwise nor would I try. I think, in terms of the public and especially fans, GL is the victim of his own success. It would be similar to getting Coppola to come back and make a gangster film that surpasses the Godfather or ressurect Orson Welles and expect him to do better than Citizen Kane. The only big modern director that I can think of who was able to maintain a strong level of consistency of quality in a sizable body of work was Stanley Kubrick but I think he was a huge exception and hardly the rule.
  9. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    "IMO the general lameness of TPM and AOTC are totally outshined by the good moments (and even not so good moments) in ROTJ"

    Such as, Dr? Like I said before, the only reason people prefer ROTJ is because of nostalgia and Leia's slave costume :)
    Try watching Star Wars movies from above the waist.
  10. Imperial_Guard Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2002
    star 4
    Now we're bashing another Star Wars film in order to prop up other Star Wars films?! Yikes. Wait, this isn't new at all.
    Either the prequels suck or ROTJ sucks or both. I'm just waiting for a member to come on these boards and talk about how they hate Star Wars in its entirety, just for a change of pace. It might briefly unite the gushers and bashers too. :D

    I'm surprised that SW fandom hasn't simply imploded on itself by now.
  11. TokyoXtreme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    I'm surprised that SW fandom hasn't simply imploded on itself by now.

    Imperial_Guard, please don't underestimate the power of Ralph McQuarrie's character and vehicle designs. Sometimes I think I only post here because it's the only forum that will let me have an AT-AT driver on my icon.

    I think in spite of its flaws, ROTJ is good for the following reasons:

    [on second thought, I'm not posting why out of embarrassment]
  12. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    The nostalgia argument may be largely "bogus" but hype and expectations are still perfectly valid as I mentioned earlier and I believe that there is a slight difference.

    Hype and expectations are valid but those things aside the prequels still leave a lot to be desired IMO. It's like one critic pointed out prior to the release of TPM: "While it could hardly be expected to satisfy on all levels it's too bad that it disappoints on so many." I never went into the theater to see TPM with enormously high expectations, especially after reading the reviews. However, even with moderate expectations I was still disappointed.

    GL is the victim of his own success. It would be similar to getting Coppola to come back and make a gangster film that surpasses the Godfather or ressurect Orson Welles and expect him to do better than Citizen Kane. The only big modern director that I can think of who was able to maintain a strong level of consistency of quality in a sizable body of work was Stanley Kubrick but I think he was a huge exception and hardly the rule.

    This is true to some degree but it still doesn't excuse Lucas for many of the choices he's made. First of all, one thing that Lucas has going for him is popularity. He's created something that is enormously popular and it seems to me that he can use that to his advantage. What I mean by this is I don't think he would have to look too far to find talented people to "help" him craft a good movie. For TESB he made a concerted effort to bring in the best talent that he could find because he wanted very much for it to be, in his own words, "better" than Star Wars...and by viewing TESB it's clear that he didn't mean special effects. Given this fact doesn't it stand to reason that he can use his popularity and influence to once again find the best talent out there to help him craft his movie? He may have even been able to use good ol' Lawrence Kasdan again if he wanted to. Don't you think that many screenwriters and directors would jump at the chance to help Lucas create a new Star Wars movie? From my point of view it looks like the only thing that Lucas has tried to improve this time around is eye-candy...and a lot of it is pretty bad eye-candy at that...IMO of course.

    I agree that, in a way, Lucas is a victim of his own success but I disagree with the notion that he didn't have it within his means to make something that was more powerful...something with more emotional impact...something that would've pulled in most of the current bashers as well as the gushers.

    IMO it was perfectly within his means to make something even better than "Empire." He basically took the low road by over-extending the visual platform and artificial characters at the expense of real human emotions and interactions.

    It's almost as if GL has reacted to the pressures of meeting expectations by purposely making something crappy.

    Maybe the real story is in his head.

    Maybe that would be giving him too much credit.

    You be the judge.
  13. Lord-Gretzky Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 3
    Kraytt, I didn't mean to say that the nostalgia factor that I believe exists is the sole reason for many disliking the PT. Nor did I mean to say that is why you may not enjoy the PT as much. It does factor into the way we see all of the films I think, for better or for worse. I just feel it is undeniable that our love for the OT has grown with each passing year, and it has become more then just a movie to alot of us, even to many who aren't necessarily big Star Wars fans. The feelings of your father do not really speak volumes for myself because it is one mans opinion, as is mine, as is anyones. I happen to feel that there maybe a father elsewhere who maybe didn't care for the OT too much, but possibly enjoyed the PT enough to see it a few times with his children. If someone thinks that the PT is horrible for other reasons, then that is completely fine and reasonable to me. Nostalgia for the first three films is not why so many think the OT is good, and it is certainly not the sole reason why many people may feel negatively towards the PT. But it is something I feel factors into the way we view and "feel" about the movies today. I miss the specifics of the OT. My love for it has gone beyond story structure, acting, and shot composition. As good as I feel AotC is, as good as ANH to me, I do not presently feel the same way when I watch it as I do when watching ANH. I doubt anyone who loved ANH when they first saw it, feels the same sort of love that they feel for it now. It is most likely a much more intense feeling, engrained in them now, as opposed to then, even though they loved it when they first saw it. Does that make any sense? If anyone understands, those are the feelings I'm talking about that factor into how we see the films. I think it's obviously impossible for me to objectively compare the movies, and I somehow feel then that others should have an equally hard time doing the same, specifically for those who grew up on Star Wars as I. Perhaps this is my problem. Im sorry for rambling.
  14. Imperial_Guard Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2002
    star 4
    Unless I'm mistaken, Kasdan was approached to assist with TPM but declined. Hypothetically, I'm not sure if Kurtz would come back if GL approached him for creative input.

    I'm not really sure if the creative staff who worked on the OT who are still available would want to come back. For the most part, it seems that they have enjoyed the experience but would rather move on and have moved on.

    An honest question that I would pose:
    Is there a modern screenwriter who truly understands Star Wars and has a good temperment for healthy compromise that could work with GL? I'm focusing on screenwriter because the writing seems to be the most common complaint for disgruntled fans. I think most bashers don't really mind that GL is directing or editing per say as much as they feel that the writing isn't as stong as it could be.

    It's important to remember also that GL is older and has a family to think about and it's possible that he simply doesn't want to bring in someone who turns out to be an arrogant spitfire who goes overboard and undermines him constantly at every turn. Maybe that's why the Phantom Editor didn't get snapped up by Lucasfilm. (see the PE: AOTC review thread for more details) If he's miserable and has a coronary burnout making these movies (we've all heard how stressful the OT could be at times), maybe the prequels just aren't worth it. I mean honestly, if he wanted to, he could have just re-numbered the OT as 1,2, and 3 and not bothered with the backstory. Some fans would probably cheer at that scenario. Others would be extremely disappointed, myself included.

    EDIT: Are established professionals really banging down GL's door? I don't think it would be a stretch to say that the fans may have scared them off. This is going to sound odd coming from a SW fan but if, in an alternate universe where I happened to be an established Hollywood screenwriter, and GL knocked on my door and said, "hey, I'm making the prequels to one of the most popular franchises in history and there's no way that people's expectations that they've constructed over 16 years can possibly be met but want to help me write it? Also, with a large chunk of creative input on a Star Wars film, you'll be the lightning rod of contempt and hatred by those who will always feel that you've destroyed their childhood and sullied the integrity of the OT, no matter what you do. Sound like fun?"

    I'd probably say, "Actually no, it doesn't. Can I just dress up as a Royal Guard and be in the background or maybe a Jedi Master with a cult following? That sounds like fun."
  15. Bresson Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 3
    "I'm not sure if Kurtz would come back if GL approached him for creative input.
    "

    He'd first have to ask for time off from the 7-11.

  16. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    what is it exactly that you dont like about Gary Kurtz's contribution to star wars Bresson? or was that comment meant to say you are sad he isnt more involved, and instead working at a 7-11?

    Frank Darabont, John Lasseter, and Joss Whedon are some names that come to mind for "stronger writers" for the job, but at this point, i dont think they would be scared off by fans as much as by the negative reaction TPM and AOTC have gotten... although they could be heralded by some as "the one who saved the saga".

    im not sure why some people are so resistant to the idea of hiring a better writer and better director... it could only make episode III better. since many of the fans of TPM and AOTC will probably like the next film anyway, why not try and make it the best possible movie they can? it certainly worked for ESB, and that was "the way george wanted it".
  17. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    Actually I had considered those things. I've seen some of the vitriol spouted by some people toward the prequels and it's not pretty. One of the users on these threads posted a link to his or someone else's review of AOTC and even I thought it was ridiculously caustic. I had heard that Kirshner was approached but declined for or partly for health reasons. It's funny how the fans would be so much more primed to blame different directors for the quality of the prequels then they did when "Empire" and "Jedi" came out. I wasn't aware of any fans blaming the other directors for the things they didn't like in episodes V and VI back then. I guess it is a substantial problem that George waited 16 years. Personally I think a prequel trilogy could've been just as good 10 years ago as it is now, maybe even better, because I really don't attribute the success of Star Wars to technology the way some people seem to do.

    All of these things aside somehow George managed to do a pretty decent job with the original Star Wars IMO and I'm at sort of a loss as to explain the different direction he's taken with these new films.

    In the final analysis I think that even George Lucas could've done better than George Lucas...as strange as that sounds.
  18. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    As good as I feel AotC is, as good as ANH to me, I do not presently feel the same way when I watch it as I do when watching ANH. I doubt anyone who loved ANH when they first saw it, feels the same sort of love that they feel for it now. It is most likely a much more intense feeling, engrained in them now, as opposed to then, even though they loved it when they first saw it.

    You're absolutely right :) I guess I was sort of drawing a generalization with that bit about my father. I agree that there is something about the original trilogy that gets better and better as it ages...sort of like a good bottle of wine, however; I also really feel that there was enormous potential with these prequels that unfortunately has been wasted...IMO. I firmly believe that a well-crafted prequel could take advantage of nostalgia and introduce new, interesting, and exciting things at the same time. The biggest problem that I see with the prequels, and I'm sure DrEvazan and others would agree, is that Lucas has chosen to over-emphasize the visual platform while inversely de-emphasizing the meat and potatoes of good storytelling...namely character development, plausable storylines, good humour, etc. I know a lot of folks respond to this by saying that "Star Wars has always been cheesy, shallow, lacking in good dialogue, etc" but I think those people are missing the point. Despite all of the negative aspects of the OT it has a human quality that transcends all of its faults. Lucas did a good job of making the OT work on a human level. While I don't think the PT is totally lacking on a human level I find it to be less than the OT and deficient even as a stand-alone.

    Here's food for thought. If anything I think the prequels have...err, had even more potential than the original trilogy because of one thing: Anakin Skywalker. Now there is a character with a lot of potential. He's more complex than any character in the OT and in that sense he's also potentially more interesting than any character in the OT. Anakin has the ability to take on the dimensions of several of the OT characters combined. Amazingly George gives less screen time with meaningful dialogue to the Anakin/Obi-Wan relationship than he ever did to the Luke/Obi-Wan relationship in ANH.
  19. Import_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2001
    star 6
    Amazingly George gives less screen time with meaningful dialogue to the Anakin/Obi-Wan relationship than he ever did to the Luke/Obi-Wan relationship in ANH.


    Let's hope that changes in the final film :)
  20. Rob_Baajakh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 1
    I'm not sure this is because I am 16 and a lot younger than most people on this board, but I like the PT more. I feel the same way about the PT that older people felt about the OT.

  21. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Unless I'm mistaken, Kasdan was approached to assist with TPM but declined. Hypothetically, I'm not sure if Kurtz would come back if GL approached him for creative input.

    Considering Kurtz's input amounted to saying making Vader Luke's father was a horrible idea, and allowing ESB to run over budget, I doubt Lucas would approach him anyway.
  22. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "Considering Kurtz's input amounted to saying making Vader Luke's father was a horrible idea, and allowing ESB to run over budget, I doubt Lucas would approach him anyway."

    as you love to say...

    PPOR
  23. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Why should I? You never do.
  24. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    please show me where i have not posted proof when asked.

    then please prove your statement that Kurtz:

    1)allowed ESB to run over budget

    and

    2)that Kurtz's input amounted to saying making Vader Luke's father was a horrible idea

    otherwise, stop stating your opinions as fact.
  25. Import_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2001
    star 6
    In a cat's voice:

    "ROOOOWWWRRR!"



    That's MY two cents. Pretty insightful, ain't it? [face_mischief]
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