Why the bad reviews???? Nostalgia...

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by 18-Toys, Jun 30, 2002.

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  1. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    I'm not sure this is because I am 16 and a lot younger than most people on this board, but I like the PT more. I feel the same way about the PT that older people felt about the OT.

    This makes sense on some level. The prequels have been geared more for your generation and audiences "do" seem to change with the times. In its day "Gone With The Wind" was enormously popular but like most other movies of that era it suffers from flowery, melodramatic acting...IMO.

    Tell us what it is that you like more about the prequels and we'll take it from there :)

    edit:

    Let's hope that changes in the final film

    Yeah, but it's already too late :(
  2. Bresson Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 3
    "then please prove your statement that Kurtz:

    1)allowed ESB to run over budget "

    From 'Skywalking' by Dale Pollock:

    Lucas was irritated more at Kurtz for not restraining Kershner--that was the producer's job. "The director needs to do what he needs to do, that's all," Kurtz says with a shrug. Lucas saw it another way: "Gary never said no to anything."...."I never got on Kersh about the fact that he was over schedule and putting a great burden on me and my life. Everything I owned was wrapped up in that damn movie. If he blew it, I lost everything."...A desperate Lucas flew to England and begged Kershner and Kurtz to speed up the production. The script was pared, sets were eliminated, and Kersh and the cast rehearsed on their days off. ...It was not good enough. Lucas was literally out of money....Lucas takes responsibility for the near fiscal disaster on EMPIRE, although at the time he blamed Kurtz and Kershner for going $10 million over budget. "Gary did the best job he could, he made enormous contributions, but he was in over his head," Lucas says.


    There's some proof.
  3. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    finally!

    thank you Bresson.

    "Lucas takes responsibility for the near fiscal disaster on EMPIRE, although at the time he blamed Kurtz and Kershner for going $10 million over budget."

    its nice that your proof of the one point (while not actually putting all of the blame on Kurtz) also shows that even Lucas believes that ""Gary did the best job he could, he made enormous contributions".

    Even Lucas himself says that Kurtz did more than just "saying making Vader Luke's father was a horrible idea".
  4. Imperial_Guard Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2002
    star 4
    From that last quote from Bresson, it seems that Kurtz's philosophy was let the director do what he wants without restraint. Based on that, how would Kurtz's involvement now change anything? Wouldn't you just be replacing one kind of "yes-man" with another? What I'd like some clarification on is exactly where Kurtz's creative involvement came in.
  5. Bresson Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 3
    "how would Kurtz's involvement now change anything?"

    Because the money man now is also the writer and director. Lucas, for all his creative talents, has clearly shown himself to be a very careful businessman, having learned a lot from his friend Coppola's financial mishaps. It's a lot less tempting to go over budget and over schedule on something when it's your dime.

    BTW, did Kurtz ever really say Vader being Luke's father was a bad idea? I've only read this on this discussion board. I'd love to see a quote or some backup info. If Kurtz did say that, he deserves to be at the 7-11.
  6. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "BTW, did Kurtz ever really say Vader being Luke's father was a bad idea? I've only read this on this discussion board. I'd love to see a quote or some backup info. If Kurtz did say that, he deserves to be at the 7-11."

    not that i know of. ive been looking, but that is why i asked for proof.

    Shelley? are you out there?
  7. Lukecash Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 4
    I read in a book, "Emprie Building" by Gary Jenkins

    That Gary Kurtz thought it was a bad Idea to bring in the Emperor...because it diluted Darth Vaders menance.

    Gary Kurtz also said that he prefered the oringinal ending to the series....when Leia is made queen, and all of the heroes went their seperate ways.

    Gary Kurtz, was off of the producers job after Empire...Lucas had to ask 20th Century Fox for 20 million to finish the movie, something that he

    And Lucas may be a buisness man-but he loves show buisness. He hired a financial guy to help manage Lucas film. As Lucas later joked, "It got to the point where the delievry guy was driving a BMW."

    Lucas Film during Empire was hemoraging money...the Buisness guy was buying up into non-movie ventures. Of course, his fatal misatake was to tell George he should get rid of Industrial Light And Magic, because it was impeading on their growth. Lucas promptly fired him and focused the company back to Movie and Star Wars related business.

  8. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    I heard about "Empire" getting behind schedule and going over budget but I never knew it was "that" much of a crisis. If ANH cost $10m to make and earned over $200m plus all of the money from merchandizing where did all the profit go? Didn't "Empire" cost about $20m to make?
  9. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    well if you want to level blame... Kurtz was the producer, but the EXECUTIVE producer was... hmmm whats that guys name again? oh yeah, George Lucas.

    "Lucas takes responsibility for the near fiscal disaster on EMPIRE, although at the time he blamed Kurtz and Kershner for going $10 million over budget."
  10. mute_gunray Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 2002
    Because this movie blew compared to the others!!!
  11. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    Isn't that special . . ?
  12. Bresson Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 3
    "well if you want to level blame... Kurtz was the producer, but the EXECUTIVE producer was... hmmm whats that guys name again? oh yeah, George Lucas"

    DrEvazan,
    I think you're misreading the quote. Lucas took the blame because, ultimately, it was his call. But he was busy in Marin getting ILM started and working on designs and effects. That was HIS job as exec producer and creator of SW. Kurtz's job was to stop the hemorrhaging from the production end and, to this day, Lucas clearly believes he did nothing to do that. "Gary didn't say no to anything". While Lucas was in Marin, Kurtz was in England and Norway spending HIS money, not keeping the wheels moving smoothly. Says Lucas, "I had a million dollar payroll due on Friday and another million dollar week after that. I didn't know what we were going to do," Lucas reflected on the financial train wreck EMPIRE was becoming under Kurtz's watch. Ultimately, it was Lucas's blame because he HIRED Kurtz, but it was Kurtz fault, as it is whenever a production runs away, that these problems happened in the first place.

    In other words, if Lucas is to be blamed for anything as regards to the financial problems, it was in hiring Kurtz in the first place and not firing him and taking charge sooner.
  13. Qui Gon Jim23 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    Didn't "Empire" cost about $20m to make?

    ESB cost about $100 million to make.
  14. dehrian Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 6
    LOL!

    Okay, reality check. ROTJ cost about $30 million when it came out, and that was about the most expensive movie ever made at the time.
  15. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    No way ESB cost 100 million to make. No Way!

    I'd be surprised if it cost more than 60 million.
  16. Dr_Acula Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 18, 2002
    Terminator 2 cost about 100 million to make.
    Empire would of been no where near that much.
  17. Imperial_Guard Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2002
    star 4
    You have to take inflation into account.
  18. Imperial_Guard Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2002
    star 4
    DrEvazan,

    While GL accepts some responsibility for these problems as exec producer, has Kurtz done anything of the sort when his job was more directly related to these problems? Or has he just been complaining about ROTJ and the prequels the entire time?

    I'm still waiting to hear about exactly where Kurtz's creative involvement on ANH and ESB came in.

  19. Qui Gon Jim23 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    ESB cost about $100 million to make.

    Sorry gang, brain freeze. ESB was budgeted for $18 million, and did go over-budget, but not by $82 million.

    *walks out with tail between his legs*
  20. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "I'm still waiting to hear about exactly where Kurtz's creative involvement on ANH and ESB came in."

    perhaps you should ask Lucas, since it is his opinion that "Gary did the best job he could, he made enormous contributions, but he was in over his head," Lucas says."


  21. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    Whatever the fiscal situation was with the production of "Empire" and who should've been blamed for what I think it's obvious the quality of that film speaks for itself. It sounds like Kurtz may not have been the best guy to lean on creatively but then he didn't write the script for "Empire" or direct it anyway.

    Or has he just been complaining about ROTJ and the prequels the entire time?

    Where is everyone getting this info on Kurtz? I haven't read a single thing anywhere.
  22. Bresson Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 3
    "It sounds like Kurtz may not have been the best guy to lean on creatively "

    In 'Skywalking', Dale Pollock writes that Kurtz was frustrated by Lucas's insistence on ending the movie with a cliffhanger. Kurtz felt the audience wanted closure. History has obviously proven Kurtz wrong.

    Another tidbit about I forgot: Kurtz's inability to side with Lucas goes back to STAR WARS, where Kurtz took DP Gil Taylor's side in the issue. Remember, Taylor was the DP on STRANGELOVE, one of Lucas's favorite movies, and the reason he was hired for SW. On one occasion, Lucas lined up a shot and Taylor moved the camera without telling him. Kurtz apparently took Taylor's side. When it came to EMPIRE:

    "Lucas had not forgotten the tensions on STAR WARS, which he felt were exacerbated by Kurtz's indecisiveness, particularly in handling Gil Taylor. But Kurtz wanted to produce EMPIRE and in spite of his own reservations and the advice of his closest friends, Lucas relented. "I suspected there would be problems and I knew I was asking for trouble, "Lucas now says. But he felt he owed Kurtz a second chance."


    That's where loyalty gets you sometimes, one step into bankruptcy.
  23. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    Kryatt Dragon, there was once a Kurtz-related thread and I posted something sort of in his defense, and I used various websites to back up my stance.

    Gary Kurtz Short Bio (With emphasis on Dark Crystal, his love for mythology, and some very good quotes from the man.

    Variety magazine article (1999) on Gary Kurtz {Mostly about what he's been doing lately, and his thoughts on SWs (both favorable and with a few gripes).

    Gary Kurtz interview with Film Threat The notorious lenghty interview. Some say the reviewer is incredibly anti-Lucas (but I actually share many of his opinions), so take the article for what its worth.

    Gary Kurtz's Star Wars scrapbook I threw that in there for fun. :D It shows pictures of Kurtz's own book full of newspaper clippings about Star Wars. I think it help humanize Kurtz a little, and shows him as a fan just like you or I.

    Bottom line is I feel Kurtz was a pretty bright guy with a background in philosophy, mythology, and film (a USC graduate), and I always felt he did contribute quite a bit to SW. I'm not saying he was a perfect man, and he did push Empire into financial strain, but I guess I liked his input in the first two SW films and maybe (and unfortunately, in my opinion) I think George may have felt their partnership was too frictional and Lucas prefers it when things run more smoothly. (I thought the creative friction was what made it better, but that's just me.) That's why they parted ways.












  24. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    i think some people feel that GL needs creative friction. seems he got the most creative friction on ESB and that is the one alot of people rate as the best of the saga.
  25. Bresson Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 3
    "That's why they parted ways"

    They parted because Kurtz almost bankrupted Lucas by not doing his job as a producer and controlling costs and keeping everything on a schedule. It's great for fanboys to be high and mighty and say the ends justify the means, but, at the end of the day, it's someone's money and if you're in a position to be responsible for it, you should treat it with some respect. I've put my own money into my movies and, as much as I wanted it to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, I didn't want to go bankrupt in the process.

    "GL needs creative friction. seems he got the most creative friction on ESB and that is the one alot of people rate as the best of the saga "

    No, that's wrong. He had more creative friction on ANH, when everything was new, nothing had ever been done before, and there was no precedent. Nobody "got" what he was trying to do, not his friends, not Alan Ladd,Jr. the exec who greenlighted the movie on Graffiti's success alone, and, at times, even Lucas wasn't sure it'd all work. That's creative friction born out of insecurity. That's where great work comes from. On EMPIRE, the friction was all about money. Everyone by then knew Lucas knew what he was doing. Even Kershner and Kasdan admit they were astonished by how strong Lucas's story sense was, something nobody said on ANH.
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