Why the bad reviews???? Nostalgia...

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by 18-Toys, Jun 30, 2002.

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  1. JediHPDrummer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 23, 2002
    star 3
    Sorry if i went to crazy, but still. His movies arent perfect but still i've never seen someone get critisized more than GL. This guy is the most critisized person in the universe. You got to admit that. And i think that we do think more about star wars but i think George lucas knows star wars more than us and more than you guys think. Of course we're fans. But the only man that KNOWS it better and more than us will always be GL.
  2. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    For me there's a big difference between being a Star Wars fan and a Lucas fan. One doesn't necessitate the other per se. My unconditional love for the guy ceased in the years leading up to the special editions and it's gone downhill ever since. From my point of view being a Star Wars fan doesn't give me license to say that everything Lucas does is beyond reproach. The truth is he's done a lot of things to miff other people in the entertainment industry and many of his fans as well.

    For the record I seriously doubt that George meant for the Jamaican and Indonesian pidgin english in TPM to serve as stereotypes. If anything I think what it shows is that he has questionable taste.
  3. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    I think most people here are bigger Star Wars fans than they are Lucas fans. I know that's the case with me. I have no love for Radioland Murders, Young Indiana Jones Chronicles, etc. I enjoyed TPM and AOTC because I thought they were good Star Wars films. That's it.
  4. Imperial_Guard Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2002
    star 4
    Indonesian? That's a new one to me. Just how many "racial stereotypes" are there in that movie?
  5. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    I thought the Nemodians spoke with Indonesian accents. :confused:

    ...or was it Malaysian?

    Obviously, I've just demonstrated my profound ignorance :D
  6. Imperial_Guard Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2002
    star 4
    I think that the "racial stereotypes" got blown way out of proportion so that all kinds of nationalities were getting thrown in. I don't even think that the Neimodians can be pinned down that specifically.

    Still, I'm not a dialect expert so I'm just going to leave this alone.

  7. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    Imperial_Guard,

    I agree that the racial stereotype business can get out of hand, however; unless you're actually a Jamaican or an Indonesian (or whatever) it's pretty difficult to make an objective evaluation. Wouldn't you agree? The bottom line is that if it bugs those particular groups of people then you've got problems. One could also make the argument that the OT stereotyped British folk as being stuffy bureauocrats. The difference between the way the OT and the PT portrays these stereotypes, percieved or not, is qualitatively different. If I were British I might be peeved at OT but if I were Jamaican or Indonesian I'd have even more reason to be peeved.

    By the way, if you want to get a better idea of how the gungans might sound like Jamaicans listen to Boss Nas instead of Jar Jar. I haven't come to the conclusion that the gunguns sound like Jamaicans. I do know that the Neumodian voice characterizations were deliberately modeled on some kind of Asian accent.

    edit: that's enough for me on this subject if you guys want to move on :)
  8. cratylus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2001
    star 2
    For the record, the Neimodians speak with a Thai accent. Silas Carson confirmed that he had to learn to speak with a Thai accent to play the role of Nute Gunray. Of course there is a Neimodian in the new film with an American accent, whatever that means.

    I've noticed something. The negative reviews of Attack of the Clones tend to be highly emotional, not only when in print but when people who didn't like the movie talk about it. You can hear it in their vopice and you can see it in the zealous glee of reviewers like Rex Reed. Of course the responses are emotionally charged as well. I have never seen people on either side get so emotional about a movie, including myself.

    I don't know, for some reason there is a segment of the reviewing community (and of ordinary filmgoers) who just love to hate "clones." I think people want to be the first to get the dirtiest possible punch in. They want to ba able to say "Look, I hated it from the start, I wasn't fooled for a second!" In other words their reviews are really more of an attempt to say something about themselves than about the movie.

    If people want to deconstruct the movies and create racism, or pick them apart gleefully like a child pulling the legs off of a grasshopper, they have the right to do so. But I feel inclined to treat the reviewers the same way. Their reviews say a lot about them.

    reviewers, whether on the net or in the papers, want more than anything to look smart and jaded. After all, what god is a reviewer who hasn't seen it all already. The reviews rub off on readers and create a "buzz." This is well exemplified by what happened with the stereoyping hoopla arount the last movie. Near as I can tell, the whole issue can be traced back to three newspapers, notable the LA Times which is constantly groping for racial bones to pick.

    Within a week of the release, people everywhere were making claimns that Jar Jar was Jamaican (though few had ever met a Jamaican, or even seen a Jamaican character in a movie) or that he resembled Stepin Fetchit. Never mind that Fetchit died before most of these people were born, and the likelihood that almost any of them had seen a Fetchit movie was small indeed. As a matter of fact all the careful searching I have done turned up only a single black writer who was concerned about Jar Jar, and he did not express anger or indignation, he just suggested that the mannerisms and speech resembled old Disney characters that embodied stereotypes, and that it was a mistake not to be repeated.

    So what we really had was a bunch of white people running around trying to prove how culturally sensitive they are. None of the black people I knew cared about Jar Jar Binks. Plenty of white people hanging out at coffee shops, however, wanted to be the first to show off their sensitivity though. Actual persons of Caribbean descent didn't seem to mind either. Apparently they did not look at Jar Jar and think he resembled them.

    As for the Neimodians, I thought they sounded french at first. Then I thought Maybe Chinese, Korean, or even similar to Japanese. There are still people who swear that the accent is Chinese and build arguments on it. Of course they are wrong, but it is no more important that what Carribbean people think about Jar Jar's supposed "carribbeanness."

    Maybe because of the racism hype around the last fim, or becuse they resented having liked episode I at first before they admittted its faults and resented being "taken in" by the Star Wars brand name, there are many people who are eager to prove that they don't like this one as quickly as they can.

    It's kind of ridiculous when you think about it. Of the thirty or so negative reviews I have read, only a handful were cool headed and thoughtful. The rest were angry rants, and with few exceptions they all contained three or more major errors about the plot of the movie, and sometimes built arguments based on incorrect statements, especially regarding the clones which are the central focus of the story and are mentioned in the title.

    Now I a
  9. Jedi_Learner Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2002
    star 5
    It's kind of ridiculous when you think about it. Of the thirty or so negative reviews I have read, only a handful were cool headed and thoughtful. The rest were angry rants, and with few exceptions they all contained three or more major errors about the plot of the movie, and sometimes built arguments based on incorrect statements, especially regarding the clones which are the central focus of the story and are mentioned in the title.

    That is so true. Read Lisa Schwarzbaum's review and the above will be understood more.

    http://www.ew.com/ew/article/review/movie/0,6115,236195~1~0~starwarsepisodeii,00.html
  10. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    Of the thirty or so negative reviews I have read, only a handful were cool headed and thoughtful. The rest were angry rants, and with few exceptions they all contained three or more major errors about the plot of the movie, and sometimes built arguments based on incorrect statements, especially regarding the clones which are the central focus of the story and are mentioned in the title.

    I agree, cratylus, to a point. One of the most vitriolic reviews I've read so far was by Walter Chaw of Film Freak Central. The interesting thing, however, is that this guy is a fan of the OT (TESB at least) and he is venting out of frustration. In fact, a lot of critics out there are ranting precisely because they are fans of the OT...just like the bashers on these threads.

    ...for some reason there is a segment of the reviewing community (and of ordinary filmgoers) who just love to hate "clones." I think people want to be the first to get the dirtiest possible punch in. They want to ba able to say "Look, I hated it from the start, I wasn't fooled for a second!" In other words their reviews are really more of an attempt to say something about themselves than about the movie.

    I'm one of those people, cratylus, and I have to say that you are pretty close to the mark. Let me just fill in some details though. As bashers we don't love to hate clones. What's happening is that we have pent-up frustration because of a lack of fulfillment and we turn that frustration into fun in the form of bashing. What else can we do? We have to release that negative energy somehow. Many gushers would be doing the same thing if the shoe was on the other foot...of course they're never willing to admit it.


    None of the black people I knew cared about Jar Jar Binks. Actual persons of Caribbean descent didn't seem to mind either. Apparently they did not look at Jar Jar and think he resembled them.

    ...can't argue with you on this one. I don't have enough info. Let me just say that I have a hard time believing that no Thai people were offended by the Neimodians. Another thing you have to consider is that most of the Thai audience doesn't speak english and, therefore, may not even recognize that the characters are speaking English with Thai accents. Could you tell if someone was speaking Russian with an English accent? Just throw in some subtitles and then it becomes even more difficult to detect the already difficult to detect Russian with english accentuation. It seems to me that a lot of the Thai audience would have to hear things second-hand for it to even be on their radar. I could be wrong though. Maybe, there really isn't anyone in Thailand who's offended by the fact that the cowardly Neumodians are speaking english with Thai accentuation. Of course, they'd have to know about it first.

    As for the Neimodians, I thought they sounded french at first. Then I thought Maybe Chinese, Korean, or even similar to Japanese.

    Actually, I thought Nute Gunray sounded like count Dracula at first...lol.

    For the record, I don't care what anyone says. AOTC, as well as TPM, could've been sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much better!!!
  11. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    Every film could be better. At a certain point you just have to accept that Lucas made the films he wanted and move on.

    And I thought the Neimodians sounded Transylvanian, too :)
  12. cratylus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2001
    star 2
    To give an idea of what I mean about "buzz" and the bandwagon, I used to word part time at a video store in California. About a week before the new movie came out, some guy walked into our store and announced "Well I heard the new Star Wars sucked." He said it as definitively as if a new president had been announced (ok bad example) but with a smugness that begged for a reply.

    Either he wanted the comradery of agreement, or fascinated questioning, or to start an argument, or all three. I don't know. But the pronouncement can have had nothing to do with his own actual opinion since he hadn't seen the movie yet! It wasn't even in theatres!

    When I waited in line for Star Wars i was heckled. Star Wars fans were the butt of an extended joke on the Conan O'Brian show too. The fact is that Star Wars fans are now seen by many as a special class of nerds, and how better to prove you are not a nerd than by pointing out who the nerds are?

    We used to be everybody; now we are a mutant breed comparable to trekkies.
  13. Rowland Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 1
    Just so you guys know, regarding the Neimodian's accents, on the TPM dvd commentary, it is stated that they were aiming for them to sound like snakes. You know, how they sort of slither out the first syllable in each sentence. It was intentional for them to sound sneaky, but also weak.
  14. Bresson Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 3
    "When I waited in line for Star Wars i was heckled. Star Wars fans were the butt of an extended joke on the Conan O'Brian show too. The fact is that Star Wars fans are now seen by many as a special class of nerds, and how better to prove you are not a nerd than by pointing out who the nerds are? "

    Yes, it seems the 'cool' factor once associated with 'Star Wars' has gone to other franchises. Again, the fault can be laid at the doorstep of 'Menace'. While I don't think the movie is all that bad--uneven, yes; bad, no--I think whatever social, hip cache SW had fizzled after the juvenile antics of Jar Jar and poop jokes. Remember, at the time of the SE's, they were the talk of the film world. Everybody loved SW then. It wasn't until after "Menace" hit the screens did the backlash start. And it's become a bit of a tidal wave which 'Clones' only partially managed to stem.


  15. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    I think it was the folks camping out in line months beforehand that bore the brunt of the mean jokes. I'm not sure the mean jokes are being made simply because people are Star Wars fans.

    From what I've seen I think Leno is actually worse than Conan. Conan is a self-depricating geek, himself, so I find his criticism kind of ironic.
  16. Imperial_Guard Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2002
    star 4
    Well, I, along with others on these boards, thought the Conan bit was one of the funniest things that they've ever seen. And the LOTR and Spock wannabes got thrown in for good measure too so it's not like only SW fans were singled out for mockery.

    But there are hardcore fans with everything, like soccer for example, and man, there are some hardcore soccer fans/fanatics. It's just that grown men dressed up as Jedis and re-enacting scenes from TPM tend to be more visible and have more comedy value. :D
  17. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    I agree there Kryatt. I like the fact Conan pokes fun at himself as much as he pokes fun at others. It's funny, but disarming, so he doesn't come off as a cruel snob who can deal the jabs but won't take it. (Like Leno).

  18. Mit-Fisto Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 2002
    star 1
    I hear Count Dracula in Nute's voice
  19. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    I agree there Kryatt. I like the fact Conan pokes fun at himself as much as he pokes fun at others. It's funny, but disarming, so he doesn't come off as a cruel snob who can deal the jabs but won't take it. (Like Leno).

    Yeah, it helps him a lot...even though he does go overboard with it sometimes.

    He's also pretty good with using his own brand of humor and coming up with nifty little skits. Oh man, how I love the talking faces schtick :) Did you see the one where he had senator Kennedy blow out Bubba's birthday cake?

    And the LOTR and Spock wannabes got thrown in for good measure too so it's not like only SW fans were singled out for mockery.

    Exactly...he's a little more inclusive with his jabbing and it goes a long way to win me over.

    Leno...bahhh. I like Letterman now more than I like that guy.

    edit: Well it sounds a lot of us are in agreement that Nute sounds like Dracula. Actually, that may be one of the more redeeming things about that whole movie IMO. I was actually fairly amused by "the Nute". I think he needs his own spin-off :D

    What do you say guys?

    Should Nute have his own spin-off?

    I know one thing for sure...Jar Jar needs his own damn universe!
  20. Bresson Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 3
    Speaking of soccer fans...

    SW fanboys don't hold a candle to some sports fans in extremities. I've never seen a SW fan riot or kill people and destroy property. Why is it a SW fan (or a Star Trek fan or Hobbit fan) considered an object of ridicule, while sports fans, with their t-shirts, jerseys, banners, etc., are considered hip and cool by the media? I remember a story about some family in Chicago that decked out their entire house in Bulls' paraphernalia, so that it was a shrine. The reporter treated them as beautiful fanatics. Meanwhile, a similar report about a couple in San Diego who made SW costumes for hobbies and decorated their houses in it was treated as a slice of absurd life. But what's the difference? Except that SW fans believe in having fun and playing make believe for a few hours then going back to their lives; whereas sports fans spend all day listening to sports talk radio, know all the stats of their favorite players (I met a guy once who was an idiot savant when it came to baseball stats), follow stupid trade rumors (spoilers!!), and riot and kill when their team loses a championship.

    I think these fans are every bit the no life that we're accused of being. This media bias is just something I don't understand.
  21. cratylus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2001
    star 2
    I don't resent Conan O'Brian's humor, but I think it is indicative of the fact that Star Wars fans are now looked on in the same way Star Trek fans have been over the the years. Four, five, or fifteen years ago that was not the case at all.

    There are some reasons for this. It is partly a generational thing, and many of us who were children or teenagers when the original impacted us so strongly are supposed to have outgrown fandom by the age we have reached.

    While I don't like to say it, I think the slapstick and more juvenile elements of Episode made made it seem like a more juvenile thing to like, instead of a cool nostalgia trip that proved you wre there back in the day. The star wars universe lost its nostalgic air that had been brewing for over a decade and became a current product with no special claim to reverence.

    The backlash against Episode One, particularly regarding the stereotype hysteria, made it fasionable to dislike the film; thus the concept of the prequels, as well as George Lucas as a person, became controversial and even despised in some circles. This damned the new film, Episode II, to a cool reception from critics and much of the filmgoing public.

    I like Conan O'Brian. He is the best late night host as far as I am concerned especially because he can be self-effacing. However I have to say that when it comes to certain guests he is actually pretty rude and exhibits the kind of superior attitude that I so dislike in other hosts. I think he is pretty patronizing to Fabio and Mr. T for example, and sometimes it gets to the point where it's just not funny anymore.
  22. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    Breeson wrote: SW fanboys don't hold a candle to some sports fans in extremities. I've never seen a SW fan riot or kill people and destroy property. Why is it a SW fan (or a Star Trek fan or Hobbit fan) considered an object of ridicule, while sports fans, with their t-shirts, jerseys, banners, etc., are considered hip and cool by the media?

    Good point, Breeson. It's definitely considered more hip to be a sports fanatic then a Star Wars fan. Though I must say I think camping out in in front of theaters weeks or even months before a release is pretty extreme! You have to admit a little ridicule might be warranted there :p

    Cratylus wrote: It is partly a generational thing, and many of us who were children or teenagers when the original impacted us so strongly are supposed to have outgrown fandom by the age we have reached.

    Not completely true. It's really directed at fanaticism. I really don't thing people have a problem with someone being a moderate fan or strong fan. It's the fanatics that draw the negative attention.

    While I don't like to say it, I think the slapstick and more juvenile elements of Episode made made it seem like a more juvenile thing to like, instead of a cool nostalgia trip that proved you wre there back in the day. The star wars universe lost its nostalgic air that had been brewing for over a decade and became a current product with no special claim to reverence.

    Yep...those two things work in tandem. Stupid movie doesn't help and fanatical fans don't help.

    The backlash against Episode One, particularly regarding the stereotype hysteria, made it fasionable to dislike the film; thus the concept of the prequels, as well as George Lucas as a person, became controversial and even despised in some circles. This damned the new film, Episode II, to a cool reception from critics and much of the filmgoing public

    Yeah, but in this case a good portion of the fan base got in on it too :(

    I hate to say it but I really do think that a lot of the criticism is deserved. You're right though, it is way above and beyond the normal amount because the movies and Lucas, himself, are such robust targets. Critics and the media target Lucas the same way the target Bill Gates. The funny thing is very few of us hesitate to roast that guy. some how good ol' George manages to get more sympathy...after all he is the guy who made Star Wars.

    P.S. - I don't like Conan all the time either. He can be pretty obnoxious!
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