Why the Double Standard?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by rpeugh, Dec 17, 2003.

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  1. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    You see it as you choose to, not how it was portrayed.

    It was badly portrayed.

    in the fireplace scene She talks about their responsibilities etc. couple that with her shrinking away from him strike me as someone who thinks he's taking this far too seriously. She doesn't want to hurt his feelings so rather than say "hey cool off" she talks about being a senator and him being a Jedi etc.

    I just don't believe she's in love with him. I should - I should see it in her eyes, in her behaviour. I don't. And a lot of others don't either.

    g
  2. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    If it was badly portrayed, then how did the rest of us pick up on it?
  3. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    If it was badly portrayed, then how did the rest of us pick up on it?

    Well I could say : because that's how you choose to see it, (that's your common response on this matter.)

    Look - we all know they're supposed to be in love in this movie, we knew it before we even saw the film. But knowing something and having it portrayed in an effective dramatic fashion are two different things.
    For you it works. For me it doesn't. I think he loves her , I see that in the movie. But I don't think she loves him, I don't see it in the movie, therefore it doesn't work.

    g
  4. Philip023 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2002
    star 3
    I think it was contrived. We know that they are going to fall in love at some point. Whether the scenes demonstrating there love came across as genuine or not, it was a plot point or story arc that has been told. I don't think its been told well.

    And Darth is right, how do you know she is repressing her feelings? And if she is repressing, what feelings are they? How do you know this? How did those feelings change from nurturing mother figure to lover?

    What triggered this change if it happened? I believe an opportunity was missed. The love story arc could have been blended in better with Anakin's fall to the dark side. His forbidden love, his partial betrayal of Jedi teachings. If the conflict inside of Anakin was more visual, and certainly less juvenile, then I could see the love as true and passionate. That's the word! Passion. The love story lacks passion. There is no passion between ani or padme.

    And as far as the kiss goes on Naboo, they hardly kissed. Come on, you call that a kiss? And in the outtakes, padme's family tell her that ani likes her and they can tell. she dismisses them entirely and says they're just friends. Come on, that's halfway through the film!

  5. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Yeah but the reason you think she doesn't love him until the end is because you are choosing to ignore the fact that they were flirting in the grassy feild, that she let Anakin kiss her before pushing him away, and that she says they can't be together regarldess of her feelings for him.

    You choose to disregard this stuff, and then act like it's the movie's fault you didn't think she liked him back.
  6. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    Go-Mer, I'm giving upo with these guys I suggest you do too.

    Let them view it as they wish.

    Besides if we can see why the love story works and that Padme does love Anakin then there is no problem.
    Let them live in ignorance, no skin off my nose.
  7. DarthMaul13 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 1998
    star 4
    You don't have to flame us to get your viewpoint across.
  8. SkottASkywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2002
    star 4
    If it was badly portrayed, then how did the rest of us pick up on it?

    Go-Mer-Tonic, as you know, it wasn't badly portrayed. It was portrayed as Lucas attended. I got it, you got it, others got it.

    The movie I referred to yesterday in this thread had a love story that in certain ways was handled similarly to the love story in ATTACK OF THE CLONES. And as I said yesterday, this other movie is getting rave reviews.

    Double standard or not, does not change the fans we are, does not change the man/professional Lucas is, does not change the movies the STAR WARS prequels are.

    You know you're right. All this other stuff will come to pass. Relax. Enjoy the ride that is the STAR WARS Prequels. :)



  9. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    But opinions are infallible. Because they are a persons view, and you can't really argue that that person is wrong because they happen to like something you don't or vice versa.

    Terrious, what if my opinion was that, say, The Flintstones had better animation than Lion King? Even the most casual view could tell otherwise; The Flintstones' parent company, Hanna-Barbara, built their entire strategy around quantity, not quality, and it shows in every frame of stock footage. If that was my opinion, though, would I be able to back it up in any way?

    Not all opinions are equally well-grounded or justifiable. People have bad opinions about countries they've never been to, people they've never met, movies they've never seen. People build opinions around assumptions and false information. They build them around gut reactions rather than any kind of logic.

    All opinions are opinions, but any equality stops there.
  10. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    Just a general reminder to take a breath and think how a post comes across before replying. Please don't let a good discussion delve into the realm of bashing. Thanks. :)
  11. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    We're trying to find empirical evidence as to the heart of this whole double standard business.

    We don't need empirical evidence. We are on a message board. If a 13 year old comes on here and tell aobut why he like AOTC are you going to deemed he have empirical evidence?

    Poster one says there is bad acting. Well that's what poster one saw that's his opinion. He can have it. Post two says there was good acting. That's his opinion.

    Just because poster one saw bad acting does not mean poster two will see bad acting. Just because poster two saw good acting does not mean poster one will.

    Here's a real good why to put this. Ten people see two cars hit each other. All ten people will have seen it happen in a different way. That's why the cop will ask more then just one person because they want as much info so they can know who is really at faulit.

    So when you say there was bad acting. Sure there was bad acting for you it was bad. For me it was good acting. You see it different then I do. That's how art has always been. No two people well like the same things and will agree on the same thing. That's why there is no right or wrong answer when talking about art. There never has been. When a teacher asks you tell what you thought about a story you just read they want your view point and what you thought of it. Ever person in class will have a different view point and have picked something different out then the next.

  12. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    And when nineteen out of twenty people draw the same opinion, what does that suggest?

    Ten people may see an accident differently, but there's still reality to consider. We're not talking about ten different alternate universes here; there was one crash, with one set of circumstances. People may see part of it, they may see all of it, they may not see it at all, or they may see or remember it wrong. They may even see part of it, then make up their own details to fill in the rest.

    Keep in mind that these things are often caught on camera. Michael Jackson complained that he was brutalized during his arrest, but the whole thing's on tape, and it never happened, regardless of what he may see or remember.

    Perception and memory are subjective and fallible. Reality and truth are not subjective, as trendy as it might be today to pretend that they are.
  13. ElfStar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2001
    star 4
    It OBVIOUSLY suggests that those 19 people have a double standard, Geist. ;)

    Let us just hope that the one person, out of the kindness and goodness of his heart, can convince the other 19 of their wrongness. I think his best choice would be to call them "bashers" and say they are ignorant haters. :p
  14. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    And when nineteen out of twenty people draw the same opinion, what does that suggest?

    It does not matter. Your not get what I'm saying. Instead of brushing it off. Think about it for a minute. What your entertained by will not be the same for someone else. Do you really think that ever one will get the same entertainment out of everthing? What my mom likes in music and movies my dad does not always like. What my dad like in music and movies my mom does not always like.

    I don't know if you have any newpews(sp). But if you did and one of them came up to you and said they really like AOTC and wanted to talk to you about what would you do? I hope you would listen and to how much they liked it.

    DG that's fine that you have a digree in film. But what you find to be good entertainment is not going to be good entertainment for another. I believe that's what you said makes the USA the USA. Your right that's what makes the USA the USA. Because we all find different things we like in entertainment. We all find different things we dislike. I'm the only one in my family that finds any SW movie to be really good entertainment. Sure my dad and mom may sit and watch it. But that's not something they like. In fact they don't like SW very much at all.

    My sister she does not like movies such as SW or LOTR at all. To her they are nothing more the movies for geeks. She saw me with a Martix T-shirt on and could not believe of how much of a geek I looked like.

    I remember watching a show called Doug. There was one Ep where his sister said if we all looked a like, liked the samething ,all agreed on the samething, and all had the same opinion the world would be a real boaring place. We might as well be back in the days of cave men where people all did act the same.

    So you were not very entertained. But when someone comes and says the were very entertained by AOTC and liked ever thing about AOTC. Why come and say they are wrong and don't know what good entertainment? I mean is there something that is trying to be proved here?

  15. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    What your entertained by will not be the same for someone else.

    ani, you've been saying that for years, and you've more than made your point, but you've ignored mine all this time, and I'd like you to listen. Please.

    There are reasons behind one film's success and another's failure. Ninety-six percent of all ROTK's reviews have all but called it the Movie of the Gods. That doesn't happen by accident, or at random.

    Now, what is it about ROTK that pulls in viewers by the millions, while other films in the same genre have repelled them for decades? LOTR, as a whole, is the first sword and sorcery film to find a mainstream audience, and one bigger than the audience for most other films. That's a remarkable achievement, and plenty of other films in the same genre have tried it and failed.

    Maybe you happened to see Dungeons & Dragons. It featured a rookie director who didn't know anything about placing the camera, working with actors, or production management (four different effects studios walked on him), and it shows. You could bash D&D all day, and never run out of things to make fun of. It bombed, loudly, and why?

    Simple. ROTK was a better movie than D&D. Take any aspect of both films; production value, cinematography, dialogue, acting, and so on, and ROTK will invariably come out ahead by any justifiable standards. From the tiniest detail to the fullest context, ROTK was crafted with more passion, more care, and more talent. That's clear.

    Now, if you're not interested in the reasons behind a film's success (or lack thereof), that's one thing. But the fact remains, clear as day, that certain films resonate more with their target audience than others do. People flock to one film, and avoid another.

    There are causes for all of that; nothing is random. To learn the whys is to enhance your knowledge of the craft. You don't have to; it may not be your line of work, or you field of interest.

    To pretend that those reasons don't exist, however, flies in the face of all sense.

    Do you understand?

    I mean is there something that is trying to be proved here?

    Simply that an audience doesn't have to settle for what's in front of them. The higher audience's standards get, the better our films will be. And that can only be a good thing.
  16. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Look - we all know they're supposed to be in love in this movie...

    Are they? I don't think they're really in love at all. I think they emotionally cling to each other in a very unhealthy way, and because of their emotional immaturity, they're mistaking their misguided passions for love, but I don't get the impression they're truly in love. And given the characters and context of the story, this makes perfect sense.

    They have an awkward, uncomfortable relationship not because Lucas botched a portrayal of a huggy-kissy-lovey-dubby relationship but because he wanted them to have an awkward, uncomfortable relationship.
  17. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    And when nineteen out of twenty people draw the same opinion, what does that suggest?

    It just means those 19 people happen to agree. There was a time when 19 out of 20 people thought the world was flat, but their general agreement didn't make it so.
  18. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    The question is, what brings them all to that same conclusion?
  19. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    DG here's the top ten billboard artist tell me if you agree with the top ten?

    OutKast, Speakerboxxx/The Love Below 6
    Arista | 50133* | (22.98 CD)

    Alicia Keys, The Diary Of Alicia Keys
    J | 55712* | RMG | (15.98/18.98)

    Toby Keith, Shock'n Y'all 2
    DreamWorks (Nashville) | 450435 | Interscope | (12.98/18.98)

    Various Artists, Now 14
    Columbia/Universal/EMI/Zomba | 90753 | Sony Music | (18.98 EQ CD)

    Josh Groban, Closer 2
    143/Reprise | 48450 | Warner Bros. | (18.98 CD)

    Hilary Duff, Metamorphosis 2
    Buena Vista | 861006 | Hollywood | (18.98 CD)

    No Doubt, The Singles 1992-2003
    Interscope | 001495 | (12.98 CD)

    No Doubt, The Singles 1992-2003
    Interscope | 001495 | (12.98 CD)

    Britney Spears, In The Zone 2
    Jive | 53748 | Zomba | (12.98/18.98)

    Those are the top ten right know at this point. Here's the link to http://www.billboard.com/bb/charts/bb200.jsp

    Know here's where your argument falls short. Just because thoser are the top ten and so many people but them does not mean they are what ever one likes. I ask if you agree with those I also ask do you like any of what's on there. Sure you and I would say Britney Spears is really bad. But there must be something about her that people like. Other wise she would not be on the top ten. Same with OutKast. There must be something there that people like. Other wise it would not have been at number 1 this week.

    Now, if you're not interested in the reasons behind a film's success (or lack thereof), that's one thing. But the fact remains, clear as day, that certain films resonate more with their target audience than others do. People flock to one film, and avoid another.

    If that's ture not just with movies but music to then there must be some reason for Britney Spears to be the top selling female pop star? Me I have yet to find it and from looking at the top ten on billboard it just don't make sense. I mean what is so good about Hilary Duff? What do some music critics and other people see in her to put her at number 6 on the billboards? There has to be something there. Where you and I would say she is no good. Well yeah that would be to us. But there must be something good about her other wise she would not be at number 6 and Outkast would not be at number 1.

    And people that are far better then them are not on the list at all.
  20. AdamBertocci Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    I mean what is so good about Hilary Duff?

    She's hot.

    / not helping thread



    Rick McCallum loves you!
  21. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    The difference being that those people were giving an opinion on something they hadn't seen for themselves, only heard about. That's not the same for people at the scene of a car crash, nor for viewers of a film.
  22. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    And at Foxnews the top ten movies well. Sipder-man is not even on there and it made the must out of any movie. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,74228,00.html

    Again there must have been something in the top ten there that the people like. other wise they would not be in the top ten.

    As for which movie made the must in 2002. Well AOTC is in the top five. There must be some reason why it was able to get in the top five.


    Edit: She's hot.

    / not helping thread


    Well Adam the whole reaosn by showing that is because this. Where me, you, DG, and DI would look and say Hilary Duff is no good. There are others that really liked her. Other wise she would not be in the top ten. I mean again there must be something there that people are liking. Other wise she would not be in the top ten. Heck she may not even be in the top 100 or 200.

    Edit2: Unless it's someone's sick idea of a joke to put her in the top ten.
  23. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    About that poll a couple pages back, I do not doubt that many people loved AOTC. But on this very site there was a poll asking which is your favorite trilogy (you know I had to bring it up), and the OT had 67% of the votes, while the PT had 12%.

    Perhaps many feel the AOTC romance and many other PT elements just didn't work as well as things in the OT? You should ask them, for the voters are your very own companions on this site!

    anidanami, in your opinion Britney Spears, Outkast and Hilary Duff are bad. There are millions of people out there that do love them. No need to rob them of their fandom.
  24. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    in your opinion Britney Spears, Outkast and Hilary Duff are bad. There are millions of people out there that do love them. No need to rob them of their fandom.

    I'm not I'm saying that there are people that don't like them. That don't feel they are good. But there must be somethig about them that people like other wise they would not be were they are.

    Same with AOTC you may say it's bad and everhting yet there must be something good about it other wise it would not be in the top five highest money makers of 2002.

  25. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Not being a teenage girl, I can't fully explain Britney's popularity myself, but I will say this: On some level, she connects her target audience.

    The music industry is even more volatile than Hollywood, but even there, everything operates on cause and effect. Musicians who succeed do so when the right circumstances combine. It takes some measure of talent; not just musical talent, but also charisma on stage. It takes a persona people can identify with, and haven't seen too many times before. It takes the right marketing strategy, the right work ethic, and sometimes, as happened to Elvis so many years ago, they wind up in the right place at the right time.

    When one band succeeds while a similar band fails, those who want to succeed themselves, or just take the process apart and see how it works, do well to study the differences between the two.

    There is always a reason. It may not be a fair reason, but life is very seldom fair.

    Now, on that same note, cinematic merit is one key to a successful film, but sometimes enough marketing, audience anticipation or freak combination of circumstances can make up for a lack of it. Men in Black II made truckloads of money on little more than name recognition. Collateral Damage might have done better if not for 9/11. Some movies are suddenly topical due to outside events that weren't in place when the cameras started rolling. Others are built from the ground up around current events that aren't current anymore when the film finally gets released.

    The upshot of all this is that films can succeed, or fail, to find an audience for other reasons than their own merit.

    There is, however, the occasional film that gets it all right. The filmmakers hit all the right notes, the time is right, it hasn't been done before, and the audience wants a film just like it. When all these things swing into balance, you get a Lord of the Rings, or a New Hope, and the film succeeds on all possible levels (or near enough) at once.

    Then there are the films that fail on every level at once; think Gigli. A weak movie to begin with (the test screening ended with the director and the studio head getting in a fistfight), starring two people the public had grown tired of hearing about, combined with the worst media backlash in recent memory, Gigli vanished from theaters in a week and a half, quietly squeaking into Blockbuster two months later. No one would call the film a success in any way.

    Most films are somewhere in the middle, and when you consider all aspects of their performance?on the big screen, at the box office, and in the public mind?you can gauge their success as a whole.

    Apologies if I've rambled, but there you have it.
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