Why the Double Standard?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by rpeugh, Dec 17, 2003.

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  1. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    The music industry is even more volatile than Hollywood, but even there, everything operates on cause and effect. Musicians who succeed do so when the right circumstances combine. It takes some measure of talent; not just musical talent, but also charisma on stage. It takes a persona people can identify with, and haven't seen too many times before. It takes the right marketing strategy, the right work ethic, and sometimes, as happened to Elvis so many years ago, they wind up in the right place at the right time.

    Then how do you exaplin Mille Ville. :p They could not even sing. You can also say it's all cause and effect. But it's really not cause and effect. I will take Ruben Studdard and Clay Aiken. Clay sold more albumes the Ruben. That's a fact yet Clay did not win AMERICAN IDOL. So he sold more then Ruben. There has to be a reason. And it's not cause and effect. There are has to be something there that these people are liking. Other wise it won't matter about any of the stuff you said DG. Because it that was it I coudl make the next Mille Ville. :p But please stop if I try to. I don't want to ruin someones life.
  2. SkottASkywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2002
    star 4
    It just means those 19 people happen to agree.

    And compared to the world's population, 19 people is not a lot of people and not enough to be concluded as representing the majority opinion. ;)

  3. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Then how do you exaplin Mille Ville. They could not even sing.

    At first, they were fresh; how many guys hopping around with mops on their heads do you ever see walking down the street? :p Once people found out that they couldn't sing, they threw their records out, and that was the end of their career.

    Everything runs on cause and effect. The reasons people succeed are part of that cause, and the effect is their success. Simple as that.

    Figure out what those reasons are, and maybe you'll have a shot; just remember, one Milli Vanilli was plenty. :D
  4. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    At first, they were fresh; how many guys hopping around with mops on their heads do you ever see walking down the street?

    Oh I have seen guys like that. But also aroudn there time there was also still Newkids. So the boy band thing is nothing new.

    Once people found out that they couldn't sing, they threw their records out, and that was the end of their career.

    Everything runs on cause and effect. The reasons people succeed are part of that cause, and the effect is their success. Simple as that.


    Yeah but it's not cause and effect. Because not ever thing in life is about cause and effect. I mean sure BSB can sing and dance. But then there are other boy bands that do the same thing. Even N'syic does that. They sold a lot of records. Yet other's can't? Again if it's all cause and effect. Why are they able to do that. Yet others can't? Again there is something there that others liked about those to boy bands but not ohters tha have come out. I mean the only thing I can think of is coropert USA.

    Figure out what those reasons are, and maybe you'll have a shot; just remember, one Milli Vanilli was plenty.

    No kidding. :p

  5. jariten Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2000
    star 4
    we'd better start talking about AOTC again before this gets locked. so...to refer to something Philip023 said about 6 years ago

    "the love story arc could have been blended in better with Anakin's fall to the dark side."

    as Lucas has stated all along, the two story threads are directly linked. the basis for Anakins fall to the darkside is love. its about wanting to keep things and not let go. he loves Padme, this is a mistake because he is forbidden to- it leads to a desire to keep things, which leads to greed which leads to the desire for power which makes him easily susceptible to manipulation by Palpatine. See? it all fits.
  6. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    as Lucas has stated all along, the two story threads are directly linked. the basis for Anakins fall to the darkside is love. its about wanting to keep things and not let go. he loves Padme, this is a mistake because he is forbidden to- it leads to a desire to keep things, which leads to greed which leads to the desire for power which makes him easily susceptible to manipulation by Palpatine. See? it all fits.

    Well really love for him is good and bad. It's bad because he goes dark side. It's good because he then goes light side when Luke comes into his life. So really Anakin is put in a part where he loves to much. It's his weakness yet not his weakness.
  7. Philip023 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2002
    star 3
    Anidanami:

    the problem with your little top ten list is not only that it is a different medium - music - but that Billboard tracks sales, not critical reviews of the album itself.

    Every once in a while Rolling Stone comes out with their top 10 albums of all time. You can bet that the Beattles, led Zepplin, a Doors or U2 album is probably up there. Compare it to that type of list, not some sales tracker.

    jariten:

    I suppose you're correct. What I think is apparent though throughout the whole saga is the conflict in Ani/Vader. But we don't really see conflict within himself when it comes to Padme. He appears (and not very well, in fact) to be headstrong obssessed with her. He doesn't hesitate; he doesn't back off.

    I digress. It seems that we have miraculously switched threads with "did the acting in tpm ruin aotc for you" or something to that effect. I'm so confused.

    I think if we want to continue the acting piece of this though I would say there is no double standard with judging acting in AOTC and LOTR. I mean, to get back to critics, isn't critical review the basis for this thread? someone must have thought that there was a double standard that existed in judging both movies so someone must be looking at reviews other than myself and a few others in this thread.

    LOTR seems to be winning ensemble awards left and right. I think jackson also got nominated for another award today.

  8. AdamBertocci Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    I think jackson also got nominated for another award today.

    The Directors' Guild of America's award of some sort.

    Lucas got a nod for that for ANH and for Graffiti.

    Alas, ESB-ROTJ-TPM-AOTC did not get DGA nods... but something tells me that, following issues raised around the time of making ESB, the DGA would rather commit mass ritual suicide than hand Lucas an award. :p

    (Did he rejoin the DGA to do the prequels? I've forgotten. And does one have to be a DGA member to get a nomination? I don't think Marquand would have been in it, being Britain-based... I'm rambling now, aren't I?)




    Rick McCallum loves you!
  9. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    No, the prequels are non guild productions. That's why Frank Darabont wouldn't answer Lucas' call to help polish up Episode I.

    It's also part of the reason Hollywood in general is a little biased against Lucas. He did after all pretty much give them all the finger.
  10. Philip023 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2002
    star 3
    It's also part of the reason Hollywood in general is a little biased against Lucas. He did after all pretty much give them all the finger.

    Oh boy. It's like an addiction.
  11. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    What? Giving Hollywood the Finger?

    I guess it is.

    When Lucas released ANH, the guild wanted him to have an introductary credits, and when he refused, they fined him. It was at this point that he quit the Director's guild, which would be suicide for most people in Hollywood.

    Despite this, Lucas made his own Hollywood, with ILM, and Skywalker Sound. ILM was so ahead of the pack that Hollywood ended up coming to Lucas for top notch special effects.

    At the same time, Lucas is doing everything in his power to make Hollywood obsolete with his new digital film pioneering. Thanks to Lucas, in a few years just about anyone with a little cash will be able to make their own movie, totally cutting Hollywood financing out of the picture.

    Think of all the people in the ceeluoid industry who stand to be out of a Job when digital takes over the bulk of movie production.

    There are people who do hold a grudge against Lucas for all of this.
  12. Philip023 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2002
    star 3
    There are people who do hold a grudge against Lucas for all of this.

    Rubbish.

    And I suppose all those wronged people are critics? And I wasn't referring to Lucas giving Hollywood the finger, I was referring to the bias against George.

    It certainly is an easy way out but still doesn't explain why LOTR is better or, rather, was reviewed better than PT.
  13. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    When Lucas released ANH, the guild wanted him to have an introductary credits, and when he refused, they fined him. It was at this point that he quit the Director's guild, which would be suicide for most people in Hollywood.

    Actually he resigned over ESB - the guild said he shouldn't have had his name at the front without putting the director's name there too, Lucas pointed out that his name wasn't Lucasfilm, they still fined him $250,000. He resigned.

    He was re-instated in '97 when the Guild put on a 20th anniversary bash for ANH.

    At the same time, Lucas is doing everything in his power to make Hollywood obsolete with his new digital film pioneering. Thanks to Lucas, in a few years just about anyone with a little cash will be able to make their own movie, totally cutting Hollywood financing out of the picture.

    Think of all the people in the ceeluoid industry who stand to be out of a Job when digital takes over the bulk of movie production.


    I dunno, they've been saying this sort of thing for 20 years. Back in the 80's Coppola was saying that kids with video cameras would be making their own movies etc. But costs never seem to come down. And Digital filming and projection is coming along very....very.........slowly.
    How many cinemas have digital projectors? Barely any more than 2 years ago. Every time someone announces the death of 35mm it's always been premature.
    The main problem IMO is the 24 fps. And Lucas digital system is repeating that problem!

    g
  14. The_Nameless_One Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 4
    There's now the possibility of high-speed internet distribution for "home made" films.
    A digital camera, a modest budget, a fast modem and a website is enough to create a film and distribute it across the net.
    Then there's always burning it to disk, maiing multiple copies etc.
    Digital editing and effects are also much, much easier to perform on standard computers now.

    Lucas is leading the way with digital film making, and people still don't realise how big it's going to be.
  15. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    the problem with your little top ten list is not only that it is a different medium - music - but that Billboard tracks sales, not critical reviews of the album itself.

    Yeah so do you know that Billboard tracks jsut what ever one is big and what is big in music. Right know those top ten are big in music. Weather they have good reviews or bad reviews. There is a reason that ever one is buying that music.

    Actually he resigned over ESB - the guild said he shouldn't have had his name at the front without putting the director's name there too, Lucas pointed out that his name wasn't Lucasfilm, they still fined him $250,000. He resigned.

    Don't you just love coropter USA.
  16. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    The whole point of the DGA is to protect the rights of the artists, from the actors to the prop man. They are (or were) strict on how the credits were presented because it is their job to make sure every contributor gets the proper credits in a film.

    I actually side with George's decision to keep the credits off the beginning of the Star Wars films, as they help the audience absorb themselves in the "galaxy far, far away." I wish the DGA and Lucas could've reached a better compromise back then. However, the DGA is not a faceless, evil entity. Many of Lucas' close friends and colleages like Spielberg, James Cameron, Coppola, Scorsese, Peter Jackson and even Irvin Kershner are all part of the DGA.
    Being a part of the DGA does not mean your films will suffer from meddling all the time. The example with Lucas was just a rare occurence.
  17. Philip023 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2002
    star 3
    Yeah so do you know that Billboard tracks jsut what ever one is big and what is big in music.

    its still a monetary analogy and you dismissed any box office analogy in our discussion. They base their top ten on music sales, not reviews.

    I referred you to another top ten list that Rolling Stone occasionally puts out that critically rates albums. Perhaps that is a better analogy for you to use.

    And as far as this "bias" against Lucas. Doesn't George weild power in Hollywood? I mean, he isn't this little filmmaker thumbing his nose at hollywood because they won't finance him. True, he's an outsider per se but I don't think we should feel sorry for george simply because the DGA doesn't like him. Good grief!
  18. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    I referred you to another top ten list that Rolling Stone occasionally puts out that critically rates albums. Perhaps that is a better analogy for you to use.

    I'm not going to use Rolling Stone. Because it does not show what more people buy.
  19. ShaakRider Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2002
    star 2
    love story:
    I can't see how can anyone say Padme being in love wasn't unmistekably indicated in AOTC. You can say it didn't come through the acting, but how can you guys think Padme would let Anakin petting her and kissing her, if she wasn't interested. Would she really want to repel Anakin, he wouldn't "have fun" rolling with him in the grass, wouldn't sit side by side with Anakin in sexy outfit and listen to his awkward love poetry. Most probably she wouldn't go with him to Tatooine either. I'm not saying i can see that "true, deep love", or that the build up to Padme's confession couldn't be better, but neither did it just come from nowhere.

    critics
    the thing is, that critics have to backup their opinion with some reasoning. If they don't, they suck as critics. And the reasoning is at least as important part of the review than the opinion. "Top Ten" lists based on how many ppl buy it gives just the opinion, without any clue as to what makes ppl like those things. It might be anything else than quality, so they aren't reliable. Unlike a Britney Spears fan, a critic shall not say BS is good because she's hot, he has to elaborate why does he think BS's music is good or bad. So his opinion is more reliable. That simple.
  20. classixboy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 4
    I love your icon, ShaakRider!
  21. Philip023 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2002
    star 3
    ani,

    again you use the monetary analogy. do we want to go that route? Do you want to compare box office figures for LOTR and PT? I thought you didn't want to? let me know because I'd be more than happy to go down that rode with you.

    and if you don't like rolling stone, try another magazine. There are plenty.

  22. ShaakRider Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2002
    star 2
  23. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Philip023 we don't need a critic to back up things we say. I don't need a critic telling me what is good and what is bad. I will do that on my own.

    You make it sound like people who don't agree with critics or don't use critics reviews have to be ashmed of themselevs.
  24. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    This thread is starting to transcend this forum. It's a good thread, yes. But we're delving into LotR, all the films, Lucas as a filmmaker, and critics. That's really a Star Wars Saga Forum topic.
  25. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Are we still playing the "My film is bigger than your film!" game? I see things haven't changed much in the months of my absence.

    Look, it really doesn't matter which film does better at the box office. Any objective observer would still conclude that Star Wars remains a popular and successful franchise.
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